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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to play against 1...e5? (Read 22244 times)
MagicTrick
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #43 - 01/21/08 at 19:59:01
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I know that thread is pretty old, but someone who neither likes gambits nor the Ruy should maybe try the Bishop Opening. Of course with d3 first and not Urusoff or Boden gambit. This is an opening where strategy really "rules" (the resulting positions are pretty schematic, so the one who plays better and has the bigger experience in the resulting positions will probably win. That said, in my humble opinion, Bishop's opening promises just slightly more advantage than any of the sound gambits like Evans or Bishops.
  
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #42 - 07/04/07 at 12:39:25
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e2e4 wrote on 07/03/07 at 06:47:35:
Salut,

Quote:
I agree for the most part, but would add: 
1000-1700: Scotch Four Knights 
1700-2000: Belgrade


... and why the Scotch Four Knights and not just 'pure' Scotch?

Regards, e2e4


I agree with Markovich that the Scotch 4N is a much better choice for young players than what I call the "Straight Scotch". It is very difficult for a coach to explain to a youngster the rationale behind the currently most "cutting edge" lines of the Straight Scotch:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Bc5 5 Nxc6 Qf6 6 Qd2 and 6 Qf3.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nxc6 bxc6 6 e5 Qe7 7 Qe2.

It is hard to reconcile these with basic principles. Good pedagogy is surely to teach the rules before the exceptions!
  
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e2e4
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #41 - 07/04/07 at 05:06:51
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Quote:
Which version of the Scotch is "pure?"


I meant 1. e4 e5 2. Sf3 Sc6 3. d4 Wink
  
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Markovich
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #40 - 07/03/07 at 11:48:50
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e2e4 wrote on 07/03/07 at 06:47:35:
Salut,

Quote:
I agree for the most part, but would add: 
1000-1700: Scotch Four Knights 
1700-2000: Belgrade


... and why the Scotch Four Knights and not just 'pure' Scotch?

Regards, e2e4


Which version of the Scotch is "pure?"  The Mieses Variation was once considered a weird sideline.  But more substantively, my own opinion is that the Scotch Four Knights embodies much simpler, and more classical, principles than the Mieses Variation.  The latter gives rise to positions that Grandmasters have struggled to understand.
  

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e2e4
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #39 - 07/03/07 at 06:47:35
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Salut,

Quote:
I agree for the most part, but would add: 
1000-1700: Scotch Four Knights 
1700-2000: Belgrade


... and why the Scotch Four Knights and not just 'pure' Scotch?

Regards, e2e4
  
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Strategy_Rules
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #38 - 05/24/07 at 14:04:43
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But white wins it back later on or not ? Huh   
The pawn on b7 is attacked.
  
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MNb
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #37 - 05/24/07 at 00:28:23
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/23/07 at 21:31:56:


Quote:
Stanciu,T - Urzica,A [C54] 
ROMch Bucaresti, 1974 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4 Bb6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Qb3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Ng5 14.0-0-0 (-+ acc to Botterill) Nxf3 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.h4 Qd7 17.Rd3 Qf5 18.Qd1 f6 19.e6 g5 20.Ne2 Qxe6 21.hxg5 Nxg5 22.Qg1 Qf5 23.Rc3 Kh8 24.Ng3 Qg4 25.Qh2 Bxd4 26.Bxd4 Qxd4 27.Rxc6 Rab8 28.Rc2 Qf4+ 29.Kb1 Rf7 30.Qg2 Nf3 31.Nh5 Qe4 32.Qh3 Nd4 33.Rhc1 Nxc2 34.Rxc2 c5 35.Ng3 Rxb2+ 36.Kxb2 Rb7+ 0-1 
Now verdicts are there to disagree with. But White's only compensation I see for the sacced pawn, is a bad bishop on e3 and a weak pawn on d4. Maybe 15.Qxd5 Ncxd4 16.Qe4 is playable, though again I would rather have Black after f5.


16.Qe4 was already played but 16...f5 is new according to my database. After 17.exf6 white might be slightly better due to pair of bishops in an open position.

That would be the case, if Black did not have that extra pawn ...

  

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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #36 - 05/23/07 at 21:31:56
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Quote:
After 10.0-0 f6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Qc2 Qe8 13.Nc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Bg4 15.Nd2 fxe5 16.dxe5 Qg6 I would still rather have Black, though objectively chances might be equal. 


I discovered 10...f5 which might be a really good move (11.g3 g5).

Quote:
Stanciu,T - Urzica,A [C54] 
ROMch Bucaresti, 1974 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4 Bb6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Qb3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Ng5 14.0-0-0 (-+ acc to Botterill) Nxf3 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.h4 Qd7 17.Rd3 Qf5 18.Qd1 f6 19.e6 g5 20.Ne2 Qxe6 21.hxg5 Nxg5 22.Qg1 Qf5 23.Rc3 Kh8 24.Ng3 Qg4 25.Qh2 Bxd4 26.Bxd4 Qxd4 27.Rxc6 Rab8 28.Rc2 Qf4+ 29.Kb1 Rf7 30.Qg2 Nf3 31.Nh5 Qe4 32.Qh3 Nd4 33.Rhc1 Nxc2 34.Rxc2 c5 35.Ng3 Rxb2+ 36.Kxb2 Rb7+ 0-1 
Now verdicts are there to disagree with. But White's only compensation I see for the sacced pawn, is a bad bishop on e3 and a weak pawn on d4. Maybe 15.Qxd5 Ncxd4 16.Qe4 is playable, though again I would rather have Black after f5.


16.Qe4 was already played but 16...f5 is new according to my database. After 17.exf6 white might be slightly better due to pair of bishops in an open position.
12.Qc2 and 12.Qa4 are interesting too.
  
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MNb
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #35 - 05/23/07 at 21:02:53
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Thanks for the game! It helps focusing. For one thing I do not understand at all Kosyrev's idea behind f7-f5-f4. Your remarks on the weak c-pawns are correct. What you forget, is Black's pair of bishops. Hence the position must be opened - that is what ex-WCh Euwe teached us.
After 10.0-0 f6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Qc2 Qe8 13.Nc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Bg4 15.Nd2 fxe5 16.dxe5 Qg6 I would still rather have Black, though objectively chances might be equal.
Once again, it was not Botterill's analysis. It was the game

Stanciu,T - Urzica,A [C54]
ROMch Bucaresti, 1974
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4 Bb6 9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Qb3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Ng5 14.0-0-0 (-+ acc to Botterill) Nxf3 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.h4 Qd7 17.Rd3 Qf5 18.Qd1 f6 19.e6 g5 20.Ne2 Qxe6 21.hxg5 Nxg5 22.Qg1 Qf5 23.Rc3 Kh8 24.Ng3 Qg4 25.Qh2 Bxd4 26.Bxd4 Qxd4 27.Rxc6 Rab8 28.Rc2 Qf4+ 29.Kb1 Rf7 30.Qg2 Nf3 31.Nh5 Qe4 32.Qh3 Nd4 33.Rhc1 Nxc2 34.Rxc2 c5 35.Ng3 Rxb2+ 36.Kxb2 Rb7+ 0-1

Now verdicts are there to disagree with. But White's only compensation I see for the sacced pawn, is a bad bishop on e3 and a weak pawn on d4. Maybe 15.Qxd5 Ncxd4 16.Qe4 is playable, though again I would rather have Black after f5.
  

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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #34 - 05/22/07 at 11:58:02
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Sorry for being lazy Smiley Here is the game :

[Event "PAL/CSS Freestyle semifinals"]
[Site "playchess.com"]
[Date "2005.06.18"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Cramton, S & Stephen (=zacks)"]
[Black "Kosyrev, Vladimir"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C54"]
[PlyCount "85"]
[EventDate "2005.06.18"]
[SourceDate "2005.06.20"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5. c3 Nf6 6. e5 d5 7. Bb5 Ne4 8. cxd4
Bb6 9. Be3 O-O 10. O-O!? [10.Nc3] Bg4 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. Qc1! f5 13. Nc3 f4 14. Bxf4 Bxf3
15. gxf3 Nxc3 16. bxc3 Rf5 17. Be3 Qh4 18. Kh1 c5 19. Rg1 cxd4 20. Rg4 Qh3 21.
Rg3 Qh5 22. cxd4 Rxf3 23. Qc6 Rd8 24. Rg5 Qf7 25. Rag1 g6 26. e6 Qe7 27. Rxg6+
hxg6 28. Qc2 Rf6 29. Rxg6+ Rxg6 30. Qxg6+ Qg7 31. e7 Rb8 32. e8=Q+ Rxe8 33.
Qxe8+ Qf8 34. Qxf8+ Kxf8 35. Kg2 Kf7 36. Kf3 c6 37. Kg4 Kf6 38. h4 a6 39. h5
Ba7 40. f4 Bb6 41. f5 Kf7 42. h6 Bd8 43. Bf4 1-0

Quote:
10...f6 (guess, where I got this idea?) 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Qc1 Qe8 and Black is OK.


12.Qc2 is better and more natural here. After 12...Qe8 white plays 13.Nc3. If black does not show something now he will later suffer from his inferior pawn structure.

Quote:
10...Bg4 11.Qc1 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.fxe4 dxe4 is an interesting piece sac.


Indeed interesting ! If white wants to fight for an advantgae he has to play 12.Bxc6. Critical seems to be now 12...bxc6 13.gxf3 Qh4 Now 14.Bf4!? was the only way I could find to avoid perpetual check. Very difficult position of course... However, after I analysed this I think white can achieve a small advantage after some more precise moves.

Quote:
11...Ne7 (really, I am not an original thinker) idea 12...c6 and Black is fully developed. If strategy rules in this position, then Black must be somewhat better


Your position can only be better if you play (later) f6 and force me to take there.
But 11...Ne7 is interesting, black can think about Nf5 and c7-c5 later. Your ideas are always welcome ! (c7-c6 is welcome, too, the best place for my white-colored bishop is d3 Wink )

If you want to find something new and intersting in openings, I can just recommend to study Zacks games. He (or his team) is one of the very few freestyle players who play their own kind of chess instead of being just a slave of rybka.

Beside 10.0-0 the move 10.Nc3 is also an intersting option for white. Botterill suggested for black: 10...f6 . Now white should play 11.Qb3. Here "11...Ba5!?" was mentioned. However after 12.0-0 white's advantage is quite obvious in my view.
Botterill suggested too 10...Bg4. White has some possibilities now. One of them is 11.h3 Bh5 12.Qb3 and now 12...Bxf3 13.gxf3 Ng5 and - + according to Botterill, if I read this correctly.
Huh 
14.0-0-0 is the natural move now and I thnik it gives white good chances.
  
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #33 - 05/21/07 at 22:42:32
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Go wash your mouth. This George Botterill is a two times British Champion, in 1974 and 1977. He became IM in a time, that this title meant much more than it does now.
Still it is likely of course, that Stanciu's play was not optimal. So your reproach should be, that Botterill should have looked to improve White's play. Well, that reproach hits almost every book on openings I know.
The main reason, I quoted this stuff, is that for some reason you refuse to quote games from that freestyle tournament. Is it such a big deal? Are there problems with copyrights? I know you gave the link, but then you have to wait until I feel like. That might take some time. Sorry if I give some irrelevant stuff now and then, but you know the remedy - give the score of that game.
Now you are a nice guy and so am I now and then. So I have looked in my database. 11.Qc1 seems to be a novelty. Again it is a bit hard for me to react without the score. So I restrict myself to a few short remarks.
10...f6 (guess, where I got this idea?) 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.Qc1 Qe8 and Black is OK.
10...Bg4 11.Qc1 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.fxe4 dxe4 is an interesting piece sac. Also playable 11...Ne7 (really, I am not an original thinker) idea 12...c6 and Black is fully developed. If strategy rules in this position, then Black must be somewhat better (see my previous post). Me not being a GM at all, I could be dead wrong of course.  Wink
  

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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #32 - 05/21/07 at 21:36:11
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I do not know who this Botterill is, but his analyses do not convince at all. He just suggests bad moves for white. Of course black gets an advantage then  Grin

After 8...Bb6, white can try 9.Be3 0-0 10.0-0 Bg4 11.Qc1! ... not easy to prove equality here for black. Even GM Kosyrev failed to prove this in a freestyle game and lost (against Zacks).
This is just one of several intersting possibilities for white.
  
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #31 - 05/21/07 at 21:01:25
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Botterill in Open Gambits, 1986:
<8...Bb6
Black has, if anything, the better prospects. He can arrange ...f6 or think of attack on d4 with the aid of ...Bg4, whereas it is not easy to suggest an active plan for White. Some examples:
a)9.Nc3 0-0 10.Be3 and Black can happily choose between
a1)10...f6 11.exf6 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Qxf6 .... =+Steinitz-Schiffers, Vienna 1898.
a2)10...Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.Qb3 Bxf3 13.gxf3 Ng5 -+ Stanciu-Urzica, ROMch 1974.
b) 9.Be3 0-0 10.Qc2 Ne7 11.Nc3 Nxc3 12.bxc3 Bf6 13.Bd3 = is the line given in ECO.
This is a grey variation, hardly in the Greco spirit.>

But this is not the end of the story. In line b both Heyken/Fette (1989) and Palkövi (1998) give 10...Bd7! (iso Ne7) -+Hmadi-Milos, Dubai 1986.
Palkövi also suggests 10.h3 f6 11.exf6 Nxf6 12.Nc3 Bf5 13.0-0 =. Strange enough he does not look at 10...Bd7, maybe 11.Qb3 Ne7 12.Bd3 Bf5 is best. In both cases chances might be equal, though I would rather have Black. White's d-pawn is a lasting weakling.

H/F add 9.h3 0-0 10.0-0 f6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.exf6 equal, but to me Black seems  better after Qxf6. So also 11...Qxf6 iso Nxf6 in Palkövi's line.

White's play in line a2 can be improved with 10...Bg4 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.h3 unclear (H/F, but not mentioned by Palkövi); 11.Qc2 Bf5 is equal, Vera-Lukacs, Havana 1986.

The game Steinitz-Schiffers, Vienna 1998, is also questionable. They continued with 10...f6 (not investigated by P at all!) 11.exf6 (11.Qb3 Ba5!?) Nxc3 (Nxf6; Black's play in Hmadi-Reyes, Dubai 1986 also can be improved) 12.bxc3 Qxf6 13.Qb3 Ne7 (Qd6!? idea 14.0-0 Rxf3!) 14.0-0 h6 (c6 15.Bd3 Bf5!?) 15.Ne5 c6 and the great Austrian should have played 16.Bd3, again about equal.

On the long term I think, the typical pawn structure favours Black for three reasons: the halfopen f-file, the weakling d4 and eventually the majority on the queen's wing. Kosyrev notwithstanding the question seems to be: how can White maintain the balance? From his perspective I agree with Botterill:
this is a grey variation, hardly in the Greco spirit.
  

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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #30 - 05/21/07 at 12:27:32
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Maybe this time I should suggest something for white Smiley

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 [3...Nf6 4.d4 or 4.Ng5] 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 d5 7.Bb5 Ne4 8.cxd4

And now, how to equalize with black ?  Smiley

Suggestions are welcome.

This line was played by Zacks (winner of the first freestyle tournament) who beated GM Kosyrev with it.

  
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Re: What to play against 1...e5?
Reply #29 - 05/21/07 at 10:05:58
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I gave 6.0-0 a !? because of Nxe4 7.d4 d5 8.dxc5 dxc4 9.Qe2 Qd3 10.Re1 and matters are not so clear.
But I agree, strategy does not rule here.  Wink
  

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