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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The current statut of the Traxler (Read 30029 times)
condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #51 - 11/26/08 at 15:00:34
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Maybe your right MNb but your criteria for openings hardly leaves room for style. I have outlined my reasons for playing the Traxler. Until everyone starts playing BB3 and d3 (which they won't because they would have played the Spanish in the first place) I will continue doing so. Only when they do will I look for a proper reply or change openings.

I have spent enough time analysing. I mantain that you should spend your time playing the Traxler over the board to improve your attacking and defensive abilities (which 4...d5 does in a milder way) rather than spending fruitless time searching for a refutation.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #50 - 11/25/08 at 22:36:20
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I have yet to decide on the best response to d3 but IF the worst black has is less than a pawn's worth of compensation, you can hardly consider it unsound.


I consider any Black opening inferior that leads to an advantage for White bigger than his right to move first. In other words, if the worst Black can get is less than a pawn's worth of compensation that means that 4...d5 is the better move. So it is useless to discuss what degree of disadvantage means that the Traxler is unsound.
Imo the road to a solid, lasting advantage against the Traxler is indeed characterized by taking just a pawn and ignoring all the other material gains. Instead White must focus on stabilizing his position, completing his development and then opening the centre with either c3 and d4 or even with f2-f4.
Beljavsky has drawn against Karpov and Anand with the Traxler. Playing through his two games shows what an uphill struggle that is. If not unsound playing like that is unattractive.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #49 - 11/25/08 at 21:50:31
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?


Thirty-five years ago, when I was obsessively analyzing the Wilkes-Barre (good times, gained me about 400 rating points from sharpening my tactics), Bb3 followed by d3 was one of the main tries for refutation; the major question was whether Bd5 was better. 

It doesn't have to be "threatening".  Black's a Pawn down and his King is wandering in the center.  "Solid" should be quite enough to prove a White edge.
  

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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #48 - 11/25/08 at 20:49:22
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Markovich,

I have yet to decide on the best response to d3 but IF the worst black has is less than a pawn's worth of compensation, you can hardly consider it unsound.

You don't need to wish it be sound. As I said, you won't refute it, maybe claim a slight advantage in some lines. Why not enjoy it? It will be around for a long time yet because of the reasons I suggested.

I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #47 - 11/25/08 at 19:31:04
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Exactly.  White is under no obligation to play 7.Nf7.  I did foresee this part of the discussion when 6...d6 was proposed, I will say, and like drkodos I was thinking of a conservative move like 7.d3.  E.g. 7...Bg4 7.Nf3 Nd4 8.Nbd2 followed by c3 and I doubt that Black has a pawn's worth of comp.

P.S. Condor, I am not "for" either side, just trying to figure out the truth.  I would be happy if the Traxler were sound, but I doubt it is.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #46 - 11/25/08 at 17:16:04
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 17:03:05:
This is annoying. I have beaten the computer with 6.…d6 many times but have no analysis on me. What is white's reply?

As one example, the computer falls for:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nf7 Qf8 8. f3 Nd4 9. Nxh8 Nxe4 10. Rf1 Qf4 11. c3 Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. cxd4 Nxf1+ 14. Kxf1 Bxd4 15. Ng6+ hxg6 16. Ke2 Qf2+ 17. Kd3 Bf5+ 18. Kc4 d5+ 19. Kxd5 Bd3 20. Ba4 Rd8+ 21. Bd7 Rxd7# 0-1

If you can't see the compensation immediately, this shows why it is such a dangerous gambit. Frankly, why I'm showing you this I don't know. Anyone who posts here better be on black's side, not a "refutor" looking for what to avoid.



I prefer 7.d3 for White in this line.

If White wants to play 7.Nf7 then I think after 7. ...Qf8 White again plays 8.d3 and can hold even after grabbing the rook on the next move, but its a thin edge to walk across.

7. d3 and some knowledge and Black is in a not-so-good way.
  

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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #45 - 11/25/08 at 17:03:05
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This is annoying. I have beaten the computer with 6.…d6 many times but have no analysis on me. What is white's reply?

As one example, the computer falls for:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nf7 Qf8 8. f3 Nd4 9. Nxh8 Nxe4 10. Rf1 Qf4 11. c3 Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. cxd4 Nxf1+ 14. Kxf1 Bxd4 15. Ng6+ hxg6 16. Ke2 Qf2+ 17. Kd3 Bf5+ 18. Kc4 d5+ 19. Kxd5 Bd3 20. Ba4 Rd8+ 21. Bd7 Rxd7# 0-1

If you can't see the compensation immediately, this shows why it is such a dangerous gambit. Frankly, why I'm showing you this I don't know. Anyone who posts here better be on black's side, not a "refutor" looking for what to avoid.

  
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Markovich
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #44 - 11/25/08 at 14:11:29
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trw wrote on 11/25/08 at 06:03:52:
I agree Bb3 is extremely annoying. Since I often play both sides of the traxler I hope my word won't be immediately discounted! However, I doubt that the traxler will ever be refuted. Still i've played this d6 move as black and never found any convincing lines problematic for white.


Would you please clarify what you mean by your last sentence?
  

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trw
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #43 - 11/25/08 at 06:03:52
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I agree Bb3 is extremely annoying. Since I often play both sides of the traxler I hope my word won't be immediately discounted! However, I doubt that the traxler will ever be refuted. Still i've played this d6 move as black and never found any convincing lines problematic for white.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #42 - 11/25/08 at 03:34:45
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condor wrote on 11/22/08 at 19:35:56:
People have to accept: the Traxler is never going to be refuted.

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.

After 5 Nxf7 Bxf2 6 Kxf2 Nxe4 7 Kg1 Black has a forced draw at worst.

After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3



Why even type this? Prove it. I think 6. Bb3 is incredibly annoying for Black. I want the Traxler to be good so badly, but I've never seen anything convincing after 6. Bb3.
  
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Markovich
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #41 - 11/24/08 at 14:24:36
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condor wrote on 11/22/08 at 19:35:56:
After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.



I'm from Missouri, as we say hereabouts.  Not really -- I'm from Ohio -- but the point is, you'll have to show me some evidence before I believe you.  To me, it looks like Black is down a pawn for about 1/2 pawn's worth of compensation, at best.  There is nothing particularly challenging about the position, that I can see.

I don't agree either that 4.Ng5 is a "flawed attack."  I think it's White's most critical and best answer to 3...Nf6.  I do agree that Black is O.K., just not with the Traxler.
« Last Edit: 11/24/08 at 17:28:03 by Markovich »  

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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #40 - 11/22/08 at 19:35:56
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7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 9.Kxe4 is very interesting I played this against Sigma: 7…d5 8 Bxd5 Qc5 then: (excuse the move numbers)

1. Bxc6+ Qxc6+ 2. Ke3 Rf8 3. Nxe5 Qh6+ 4. Kd3 Qa6+ 5. Nc4 Bf5+ 6. Kc3 O-O-O 7. d3 b5 8. Ne3 b4+ 9. Kd2 Bxd3 10. Ke1 Qc6 11. Rg1 Bf5 12. Bd2 Rfe8
(going straight into)
2. Qe2 Bxc2 3. Qg4+ Rd7 4. Rf1 Qh6 5. Qf3 Be4 6. Qf2 Qg6 7. Qf4 Bxb1 8. Qxb4 Rd6 9. Qc5 a6 10. b4 Qe4 11. Rg1 Rc6 12. Qg5 Rd6 13. Qh5 Rxd2 14. Qxe8+
Qxe8 15. Kxd2 Qd8+ 16. Ke1 Bd3 17. Rd1 Qd4 18. Rxd3 Qxd3 with an eventually won game for black.

It took (and often takes) ages to find the correct strategy. People who call the Traxler simply tactical don't really understand it. It has its own unique (if anyone can find a similar opening, tell me) strategies.

People have to accept: the Traxler is never going to be refuted.

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.

After 5 Nxf7 Bxf2 6 Kxf2 Nxe4 7 Kg1 Black has a forced draw at worst.

After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3

The best white has is a possible tiny endgame advantage after 5 d4 d5 6 dxc5 dxc4 7 Qxd8 Nxd8 (unless black can cheekily try Kxd8). In my worst nightmares white players will start doing this.

In agreement with Tarrasch, 4 Ng5 is a flawed attack which deserves to get beaten back. But, only the very best play will prove Tarrasch right.

Why not play white without the arrogant "Oh, I'm going to refute (just like the Dragon or KID) a 120 year old opening"? Simply enjoy testing each others respective attacking and defensive abilities to the absolute limit; that is the real point of the opening.
  
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g2-g4
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #39 - 11/02/08 at 10:50:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/31/07 at 14:37:11:
From the YB 55 we learnt that the pseudo refutation of the Traxler was 5.Nf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 (Kf1! according to one of the article of YB63-68 is better for White but Dji say that in YB 70, Black has improved here)Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and now 7..Qh4! 8.g3 Nxg3! 9.hxg3 Dd4+ 10.Kf3 d5! 11.Rh4 e4 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3(the supposed refutation from YB55)13..dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7! (The forgoten move that save Black, pointed out by a reader in YB56)
15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.Nfg5 h6 17.Nc3 Bg4 18.Nh3 Qf6 19.Rxg4 Qf1+ 20.Kh2 Rf2+ 21.Nxf2 Qxf2
with perpetual check. All this line comes from one of the article of YB63-68 available for free in the New in chess website in a pdf file.



There are some tricks in this line, not mentioned anywhere, as far as I know. White can play 13.Rf4!? and here 13...Qxc4 is not good for black: 14.Nc3 Rxf7 15.Rxf7 Kxf7 16.Qh5+ Kg8 17.b3! and white is winning, I believe. Thus, black has to take the bishop with his pawn: 13...dc which leads to perpetual: 14.Qh5 g6 15.Nh6+ Kg7 16.Qg5 Bh3+ 17.Kxh3 Qg1 and after exchange on f4 white king is exposed to checks.

There's one more point for black. Instead of 17...Bg4 (in 13.Nc3 variation) black can keep attacking after 17...Qf6!?, threatening 18...Bg4 and white looses his queen, so 18.Nf3 seems to be forced, and now 18...Ng6 19.Rh1 Rad8 gives black strong initiative.

Perhaps, it is already well known theory.  Smiley
« Last Edit: 11/02/08 at 15:24:39 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #38 - 07/25/07 at 20:07:23
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Nice hint, thanks Smiley
  
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Dji
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #37 - 07/25/07 at 18:11:18
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If you want some answers about Traxler counter Gambit take a café (in french in the text) , a chesscafe.com of course and you 'll see over the horizons ! Wink
« Last Edit: 07/26/07 at 11:18:11 by Dji »  

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