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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The current statut of the Traxler (Read 30090 times)
MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #66 - 12/10/08 at 13:53:15
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Here is one line that looks nasty for Black:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ (I have also looked at 5.d4 but am not impressed by White's extra pawn after d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd5 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Qxd8 Nxd8) Ke7 6.Bb3 (maybe not better than 6.Bd5, but certainly simpler: Rf8 7.0-0 d6 8.c3 Bg4 9.Qb3 h6 10.Qxb7) and here Black usually plays the moves d6, Qe8 and Rf8 in some order. White has a solid plan against all and in fact only has to remember the line d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Qe2 followed by Nc3 and 0-0-0. Black faces the prospect to play for a draw for another 40 moves or so by exchanging all pieces. White will avoid this and enjoy his centre domination. His/her advantage might not be that great, but it's there to last. If this would be the worst White can get after 4.Ng5 I would start playing it immediately. In other words, I think this line shows that 4...Bc5 is inferior to 4...d5.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #65 - 12/03/08 at 15:20:34
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@condor: I have never be afraid to play against Ke3, here Iam sure that Black is ok, but against Kf1 that's not so clear.

@drkodos: I may be ready to play from the starting position as Black, but I will confirm you soon if I can do it now.
  
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drkodos
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #64 - 12/03/08 at 15:12:02
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I would play CC game v Traxler, but refuse to be forced into a line choice just so Black can prove something in a variation that is clearly not White's best choice.

So, if anyone is interested in playing CC from the Starting position of the Traxler 4. ....Bc5, I'm in.


Otherwise, maintaining that Black is for choice in this line is all just self flagellation at this point, to me.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #63 - 12/03/08 at 14:51:15
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Obviously, I missed d3 but I still don't think white can be calm. Look at the last two games in http://www.newinchess.com/Yearbook/pdf/YB66_113.pdf. See how many opportunities white has to go wrong, particuarly the last game where no forced advantage is mentioned for white.

By the way, Arkhein, I noticed you dropped the prospect of a correspondence against Ke3 and have switched to Kf1.
  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #62 - 11/30/08 at 21:25:13
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It looks like the white team is in trouble, as I certainly would mind defending White's case after 5.Nxf7/9.d6 and I would even more mind defending 7.Ke3.

condor wrote on 11/30/08 at 16:33:23:
As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.


That's OK, but

TonyRo wrote on 11/30/08 at 17:03:17:
I understand that this is what you told us - the second time. The first time you said White was in trouble!


this is what I understood as well.
  

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micawber
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #61 - 11/30/08 at 20:54:53
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I wouldnt mind to join the black team either, as I've defended the black side of the Traxler quite a few times in the old TGT-thematic tournaments. And I still think it still interesting, even though I've abandonned it in favour of the classical d5/Na5 continuation.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #60 - 11/30/08 at 19:55:59
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I wouldn't say "no" to join your team as Black, because I like that sort of challenges, but if we reach the position I spoke after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6, I wonder how we will decide between the 2 mains and différents choice: 9..cxd6 or 9..Qxd6.
But the only time I had the chance to play that line in corr I choose 9..Qxd6 and I had an exchange down without enough compensation after 9.d6 Qxd6 10.Nf7 Qc5 11.d3 Bh4 12.b4 Qe7 13.Nd2 Bg4 14.Nf3 Bxf3 15.gxf3 b5 16.Bb3 Bxb3 17.axb3 Kxf7 18.Bd2 so unless you find an improvment as Black here, I would vote for 9..cxd6.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #59 - 11/30/08 at 17:03:17
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I understand that this is what you told us - the second time. The first time you said White was in trouble!
  
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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #58 - 11/30/08 at 16:33:23
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There is lots of analysis on Bd5 and Ke3 which you can search for already. Why do I have spend my time showing it to you?

Sure, I'd like a correspondence game with Kf1 or Ke3, as long as its not me against Arkhein, MNb, TonyRo, edgy, trw, and Markovich and I actually have someone willing to join me defending it.

As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #57 - 11/29/08 at 20:08:09
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Ok condor, I spoke quietly to you, I just wanted to know your choice between 2 importants subvariations, and you think Im asking to you very much!?...So don't come here and say "After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3" or I will challenge you immediately in a corr. game on the forum as White. But I guess you won't accept any challenge because you can't prove your own "truth".
  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #56 - 11/29/08 at 19:41:31
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condor wrote on 11/29/08 at 15:53:17:
stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.

You can take your medicine safely, as this is what I have done since about 1982.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #55 - 11/29/08 at 17:49:42
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I think there's a difference between not knowing what you're doing in a line that's believed to be inherently sound and not knowing what you're doing in a line that's believed to be a little on the dubious side. I would feel fine playing a Dragon position that I've never played before, because I can be confiden that moves exist that will leave with me a satisfactory position. I can't say the same about the Traxler. I've tried to make the Traxler work multiple times, only to fail every time. I can't say that you've made a very strong case either. Making blanket statements that contradict piles of theory like:

"After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble."

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

doesn't particularly help out. You then proceed to show a game after 6...d6 where White played like a computer, instead of being happy that he's up a pawn with a Black king on e7. What happens after the obvious 7. d3? Well, you never said. You instead said that we should analyze it ourselves, instead of using a computer. This is maybe true, but we're not making the outlandish claims here, you are, so I feel as though it's only fair that the onus of proof lay on your shoulders.
  
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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #54 - 11/29/08 at 15:53:17
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Frankly, whoever has to have every single variation pre-chewed by theory before playing a sharp line, I pity you. If you want certainty in every single line, then I'm not prepared to waste my time mollyifying you.

Try exploring yourself! It is a tactical opnening that benefits from human imagination on both sides. I'm sick of lazy people who watch the dial on Fritz then demand to know where the immediate compensation is in every single line without bothering to explore themselves. If you're that lazy, conservative and unimganiative, stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #53 - 11/27/08 at 08:34:39
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I really like the Traxler as Black but I can't play that with full confidence.

condor said: Quote:
After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3


I don't think Black's life after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6 is easy for Black, and I would be happy if it was...
condor, what move you believe is easy for Black here, 9..Qxd6 or 9..cxd6? It would be nice to continue the debate from here, because that line is highly critical, if 6.Kf1 is not sufficient for an advantage, 5.Nxf7 is not too (until a surprising line is discovered).
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #52 - 11/26/08 at 15:41:25
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edgy wrote on 11/25/08 at 21:50:31:
condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?


Thirty-five years ago, when I was obsessively analyzing the Wilkes-Barre (good times, gained me about 400 rating points from sharpening my tactics), Bb3 followed by d3 was one of the main tries for refutation; the major question was whether Bd5 was better.  

It doesn't have to be "threatening".  Black's a Pawn down and his King is wandering in the center.  "Solid" should be quite enough to prove a White edge.


I quote edgy here because his view is my view exactly. 

Condor, I can only say that your understanding of the theory of this variation is quite different from mine if you think that the repute of 4.Bxf7+ Ke7 5.Bb3 is low.  It appears that we also differ in our understanding of chess itself if Black's game after 5...d6 6.d3 is one that you would willingly take up.

What rejoinders you are likely to encounter in your games bear only upon whether you personally should play the Traxler, not whether this system is objectively good.  I personally would never prepare a system that I considered to be unsound, in which category I include systems that lead to not obviously drawn pawn-down endings.

Parenthetically, if you think that everyone who plays 4.Ng5 is looking to indulge Black's lust for a red-meat attacking game, you're wrong.  As I said, 4.Ng5 is White's best and most critical move, and it's one that any strong opponent should be expected to play (granted, many strong players would rather just skip the whole discussion and play 4.d3).  Equally I rather suspect you will find an extreme shortage of strong opponents who will venture 4.Nxf7. 

Also I said that Black has at best a half-pawn's comp after 6.d3.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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