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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The current statut of the Traxler (Read 29817 times)
MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #66 - 12/10/08 at 13:53:15
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Here is one line that looks nasty for Black:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ (I have also looked at 5.d4 but am not impressed by White's extra pawn after d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd5 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Qxd8 Nxd8) Ke7 6.Bb3 (maybe not better than 6.Bd5, but certainly simpler: Rf8 7.0-0 d6 8.c3 Bg4 9.Qb3 h6 10.Qxb7) and here Black usually plays the moves d6, Qe8 and Rf8 in some order. White has a solid plan against all and in fact only has to remember the line d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Qe2 followed by Nc3 and 0-0-0. Black faces the prospect to play for a draw for another 40 moves or so by exchanging all pieces. White will avoid this and enjoy his centre domination. His/her advantage might not be that great, but it's there to last. If this would be the worst White can get after 4.Ng5 I would start playing it immediately. In other words, I think this line shows that 4...Bc5 is inferior to 4...d5.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #65 - 12/03/08 at 15:20:34
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@condor: I have never be afraid to play against Ke3, here Iam sure that Black is ok, but against Kf1 that's not so clear.

@drkodos: I may be ready to play from the starting position as Black, but I will confirm you soon if I can do it now.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #64 - 12/03/08 at 15:12:02
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I would play CC game v Traxler, but refuse to be forced into a line choice just so Black can prove something in a variation that is clearly not White's best choice.

So, if anyone is interested in playing CC from the Starting position of the Traxler 4. ....Bc5, I'm in.


Otherwise, maintaining that Black is for choice in this line is all just self flagellation at this point, to me.
  

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condor
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #63 - 12/03/08 at 14:51:15
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Obviously, I missed d3 but I still don't think white can be calm. Look at the last two games in http://www.newinchess.com/Yearbook/pdf/YB66_113.pdf. See how many opportunities white has to go wrong, particuarly the last game where no forced advantage is mentioned for white.

By the way, Arkhein, I noticed you dropped the prospect of a correspondence against Ke3 and have switched to Kf1.
  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #62 - 11/30/08 at 21:25:13
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It looks like the white team is in trouble, as I certainly would mind defending White's case after 5.Nxf7/9.d6 and I would even more mind defending 7.Ke3.

condor wrote on 11/30/08 at 16:33:23:
As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.


That's OK, but

TonyRo wrote on 11/30/08 at 17:03:17:
I understand that this is what you told us - the second time. The first time you said White was in trouble!


this is what I understood as well.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #61 - 11/30/08 at 20:54:53
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I wouldnt mind to join the black team either, as I've defended the black side of the Traxler quite a few times in the old TGT-thematic tournaments. And I still think it still interesting, even though I've abandonned it in favour of the classical d5/Na5 continuation.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #60 - 11/30/08 at 19:55:59
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I wouldn't say "no" to join your team as Black, because I like that sort of challenges, but if we reach the position I spoke after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6, I wonder how we will decide between the 2 mains and différents choice: 9..cxd6 or 9..Qxd6.
But the only time I had the chance to play that line in corr I choose 9..Qxd6 and I had an exchange down without enough compensation after 9.d6 Qxd6 10.Nf7 Qc5 11.d3 Bh4 12.b4 Qe7 13.Nd2 Bg4 14.Nf3 Bxf3 15.gxf3 b5 16.Bb3 Bxb3 17.axb3 Kxf7 18.Bd2 so unless you find an improvment as Black here, I would vote for 9..cxd6.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #59 - 11/30/08 at 17:03:17
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I understand that this is what you told us - the second time. The first time you said White was in trouble!
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #58 - 11/30/08 at 16:33:23
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There is lots of analysis on Bd5 and Ke3 which you can search for already. Why do I have spend my time showing it to you?

Sure, I'd like a correspondence game with Kf1 or Ke3, as long as its not me against Arkhein, MNb, TonyRo, edgy, trw, and Markovich and I actually have someone willing to join me defending it.

As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #57 - 11/29/08 at 20:08:09
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Ok condor, I spoke quietly to you, I just wanted to know your choice between 2 importants subvariations, and you think Im asking to you very much!?...So don't come here and say "After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3" or I will challenge you immediately in a corr. game on the forum as White. But I guess you won't accept any challenge because you can't prove your own "truth".
  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #56 - 11/29/08 at 19:41:31
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condor wrote on 11/29/08 at 15:53:17:
stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.

You can take your medicine safely, as this is what I have done since about 1982.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #55 - 11/29/08 at 17:49:42
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I think there's a difference between not knowing what you're doing in a line that's believed to be inherently sound and not knowing what you're doing in a line that's believed to be a little on the dubious side. I would feel fine playing a Dragon position that I've never played before, because I can be confiden that moves exist that will leave with me a satisfactory position. I can't say the same about the Traxler. I've tried to make the Traxler work multiple times, only to fail every time. I can't say that you've made a very strong case either. Making blanket statements that contradict piles of theory like:

"After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble."

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

doesn't particularly help out. You then proceed to show a game after 6...d6 where White played like a computer, instead of being happy that he's up a pawn with a Black king on e7. What happens after the obvious 7. d3? Well, you never said. You instead said that we should analyze it ourselves, instead of using a computer. This is maybe true, but we're not making the outlandish claims here, you are, so I feel as though it's only fair that the onus of proof lay on your shoulders.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #54 - 11/29/08 at 15:53:17
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Frankly, whoever has to have every single variation pre-chewed by theory before playing a sharp line, I pity you. If you want certainty in every single line, then I'm not prepared to waste my time mollyifying you.

Try exploring yourself! It is a tactical opnening that benefits from human imagination on both sides. I'm sick of lazy people who watch the dial on Fritz then demand to know where the immediate compensation is in every single line without bothering to explore themselves. If you're that lazy, conservative and unimganiative, stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #53 - 11/27/08 at 08:34:39
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I really like the Traxler as Black but I can't play that with full confidence.

condor said: Quote:
After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3


I don't think Black's life after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6 is easy for Black, and I would be happy if it was...
condor, what move you believe is easy for Black here, 9..Qxd6 or 9..cxd6? It would be nice to continue the debate from here, because that line is highly critical, if 6.Kf1 is not sufficient for an advantage, 5.Nxf7 is not too (until a surprising line is discovered).
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #52 - 11/26/08 at 15:41:25
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edgy wrote on 11/25/08 at 21:50:31:
condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?


Thirty-five years ago, when I was obsessively analyzing the Wilkes-Barre (good times, gained me about 400 rating points from sharpening my tactics), Bb3 followed by d3 was one of the main tries for refutation; the major question was whether Bd5 was better.  

It doesn't have to be "threatening".  Black's a Pawn down and his King is wandering in the center.  "Solid" should be quite enough to prove a White edge.


I quote edgy here because his view is my view exactly. 

Condor, I can only say that your understanding of the theory of this variation is quite different from mine if you think that the repute of 4.Bxf7+ Ke7 5.Bb3 is low.  It appears that we also differ in our understanding of chess itself if Black's game after 5...d6 6.d3 is one that you would willingly take up.

What rejoinders you are likely to encounter in your games bear only upon whether you personally should play the Traxler, not whether this system is objectively good.  I personally would never prepare a system that I considered to be unsound, in which category I include systems that lead to not obviously drawn pawn-down endings.

Parenthetically, if you think that everyone who plays 4.Ng5 is looking to indulge Black's lust for a red-meat attacking game, you're wrong.  As I said, 4.Ng5 is White's best and most critical move, and it's one that any strong opponent should be expected to play (granted, many strong players would rather just skip the whole discussion and play 4.d3).  Equally I rather suspect you will find an extreme shortage of strong opponents who will venture 4.Nxf7. 

Also I said that Black has at best a half-pawn's comp after 6.d3.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #51 - 11/26/08 at 15:00:34
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Maybe your right MNb but your criteria for openings hardly leaves room for style. I have outlined my reasons for playing the Traxler. Until everyone starts playing BB3 and d3 (which they won't because they would have played the Spanish in the first place) I will continue doing so. Only when they do will I look for a proper reply or change openings.

I have spent enough time analysing. I mantain that you should spend your time playing the Traxler over the board to improve your attacking and defensive abilities (which 4...d5 does in a milder way) rather than spending fruitless time searching for a refutation.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #50 - 11/25/08 at 22:36:20
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I have yet to decide on the best response to d3 but IF the worst black has is less than a pawn's worth of compensation, you can hardly consider it unsound.


I consider any Black opening inferior that leads to an advantage for White bigger than his right to move first. In other words, if the worst Black can get is less than a pawn's worth of compensation that means that 4...d5 is the better move. So it is useless to discuss what degree of disadvantage means that the Traxler is unsound.
Imo the road to a solid, lasting advantage against the Traxler is indeed characterized by taking just a pawn and ignoring all the other material gains. Instead White must focus on stabilizing his position, completing his development and then opening the centre with either c3 and d4 or even with f2-f4.
Beljavsky has drawn against Karpov and Anand with the Traxler. Playing through his two games shows what an uphill struggle that is. If not unsound playing like that is unattractive.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #49 - 11/25/08 at 21:50:31
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:
I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?


Thirty-five years ago, when I was obsessively analyzing the Wilkes-Barre (good times, gained me about 400 rating points from sharpening my tactics), Bb3 followed by d3 was one of the main tries for refutation; the major question was whether Bd5 was better. 

It doesn't have to be "threatening".  Black's a Pawn down and his King is wandering in the center.  "Solid" should be quite enough to prove a White edge.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #48 - 11/25/08 at 20:49:22
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Markovich,

I have yet to decide on the best response to d3 but IF the worst black has is less than a pawn's worth of compensation, you can hardly consider it unsound.

You don't need to wish it be sound. As I said, you won't refute it, maybe claim a slight advantage in some lines. Why not enjoy it? It will be around for a long time yet because of the reasons I suggested.

I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #47 - 11/25/08 at 19:31:04
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Exactly.  White is under no obligation to play 7.Nf7.  I did foresee this part of the discussion when 6...d6 was proposed, I will say, and like drkodos I was thinking of a conservative move like 7.d3.  E.g. 7...Bg4 7.Nf3 Nd4 8.Nbd2 followed by c3 and I doubt that Black has a pawn's worth of comp.

P.S. Condor, I am not "for" either side, just trying to figure out the truth.  I would be happy if the Traxler were sound, but I doubt it is.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #46 - 11/25/08 at 17:16:04
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condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 17:03:05:
This is annoying. I have beaten the computer with 6.…d6 many times but have no analysis on me. What is white's reply?

As one example, the computer falls for:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nf7 Qf8 8. f3 Nd4 9. Nxh8 Nxe4 10. Rf1 Qf4 11. c3 Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. cxd4 Nxf1+ 14. Kxf1 Bxd4 15. Ng6+ hxg6 16. Ke2 Qf2+ 17. Kd3 Bf5+ 18. Kc4 d5+ 19. Kxd5 Bd3 20. Ba4 Rd8+ 21. Bd7 Rxd7# 0-1

If you can't see the compensation immediately, this shows why it is such a dangerous gambit. Frankly, why I'm showing you this I don't know. Anyone who posts here better be on black's side, not a "refutor" looking for what to avoid.



I prefer 7.d3 for White in this line.

If White wants to play 7.Nf7 then I think after 7. ...Qf8 White again plays 8.d3 and can hold even after grabbing the rook on the next move, but its a thin edge to walk across.

7. d3 and some knowledge and Black is in a not-so-good way.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #45 - 11/25/08 at 17:03:05
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This is annoying. I have beaten the computer with 6.…d6 many times but have no analysis on me. What is white's reply?

As one example, the computer falls for:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 d6 7. Nf7 Qf8 8. f3 Nd4 9. Nxh8 Nxe4 10. Rf1 Qf4 11. c3 Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. cxd4 Nxf1+ 14. Kxf1 Bxd4 15. Ng6+ hxg6 16. Ke2 Qf2+ 17. Kd3 Bf5+ 18. Kc4 d5+ 19. Kxd5 Bd3 20. Ba4 Rd8+ 21. Bd7 Rxd7# 0-1

If you can't see the compensation immediately, this shows why it is such a dangerous gambit. Frankly, why I'm showing you this I don't know. Anyone who posts here better be on black's side, not a "refutor" looking for what to avoid.

  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #44 - 11/25/08 at 14:11:29
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trw wrote on 11/25/08 at 06:03:52:
I agree Bb3 is extremely annoying. Since I often play both sides of the traxler I hope my word won't be immediately discounted! However, I doubt that the traxler will ever be refuted. Still i've played this d6 move as black and never found any convincing lines problematic for white.


Would you please clarify what you mean by your last sentence?
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #43 - 11/25/08 at 06:03:52
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I agree Bb3 is extremely annoying. Since I often play both sides of the traxler I hope my word won't be immediately discounted! However, I doubt that the traxler will ever be refuted. Still i've played this d6 move as black and never found any convincing lines problematic for white.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #42 - 11/25/08 at 03:34:45
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condor wrote on 11/22/08 at 19:35:56:
People have to accept: the Traxler is never going to be refuted.

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.

After 5 Nxf7 Bxf2 6 Kxf2 Nxe4 7 Kg1 Black has a forced draw at worst.

After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3



Why even type this? Prove it. I think 6. Bb3 is incredibly annoying for Black. I want the Traxler to be good so badly, but I've never seen anything convincing after 6. Bb3.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #41 - 11/24/08 at 14:24:36
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condor wrote on 11/22/08 at 19:35:56:
After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.



I'm from Missouri, as we say hereabouts.  Not really -- I'm from Ohio -- but the point is, you'll have to show me some evidence before I believe you.  To me, it looks like Black is down a pawn for about 1/2 pawn's worth of compensation, at best.  There is nothing particularly challenging about the position, that I can see.

I don't agree either that 4.Ng5 is a "flawed attack."  I think it's White's most critical and best answer to 3...Nf6.  I do agree that Black is O.K., just not with the Traxler.
« Last Edit: 11/24/08 at 17:28:03 by Markovich »  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #40 - 11/22/08 at 19:35:56
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7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 9.Kxe4 is very interesting I played this against Sigma: 7…d5 8 Bxd5 Qc5 then: (excuse the move numbers)

1. Bxc6+ Qxc6+ 2. Ke3 Rf8 3. Nxe5 Qh6+ 4. Kd3 Qa6+ 5. Nc4 Bf5+ 6. Kc3 O-O-O 7. d3 b5 8. Ne3 b4+ 9. Kd2 Bxd3 10. Ke1 Qc6 11. Rg1 Bf5 12. Bd2 Rfe8
(going straight into)
2. Qe2 Bxc2 3. Qg4+ Rd7 4. Rf1 Qh6 5. Qf3 Be4 6. Qf2 Qg6 7. Qf4 Bxb1 8. Qxb4 Rd6 9. Qc5 a6 10. b4 Qe4 11. Rg1 Rc6 12. Qg5 Rd6 13. Qh5 Rxd2 14. Qxe8+
Qxe8 15. Kxd2 Qd8+ 16. Ke1 Bd3 17. Rd1 Qd4 18. Rxd3 Qxd3 with an eventually won game for black.

It took (and often takes) ages to find the correct strategy. People who call the Traxler simply tactical don't really understand it. It has its own unique (if anyone can find a similar opening, tell me) strategies.

People have to accept: the Traxler is never going to be refuted.

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.

After 5 Nxf7 Bxf2 6 Kxf2 Nxe4 7 Kg1 Black has a forced draw at worst.

After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3

The best white has is a possible tiny endgame advantage after 5 d4 d5 6 dxc5 dxc4 7 Qxd8 Nxd8 (unless black can cheekily try Kxd8). In my worst nightmares white players will start doing this.

In agreement with Tarrasch, 4 Ng5 is a flawed attack which deserves to get beaten back. But, only the very best play will prove Tarrasch right.

Why not play white without the arrogant "Oh, I'm going to refute (just like the Dragon or KID) a 120 year old opening"? Simply enjoy testing each others respective attacking and defensive abilities to the absolute limit; that is the real point of the opening.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #39 - 11/02/08 at 10:50:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/31/07 at 14:37:11:
From the YB 55 we learnt that the pseudo refutation of the Traxler was 5.Nf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 (Kf1! according to one of the article of YB63-68 is better for White but Dji say that in YB 70, Black has improved here)Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and now 7..Qh4! 8.g3 Nxg3! 9.hxg3 Dd4+ 10.Kf3 d5! 11.Rh4 e4 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3(the supposed refutation from YB55)13..dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7! (The forgoten move that save Black, pointed out by a reader in YB56)
15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.Nfg5 h6 17.Nc3 Bg4 18.Nh3 Qf6 19.Rxg4 Qf1+ 20.Kh2 Rf2+ 21.Nxf2 Qxf2
with perpetual check. All this line comes from one of the article of YB63-68 available for free in the New in chess website in a pdf file.



There are some tricks in this line, not mentioned anywhere, as far as I know. White can play 13.Rf4!? and here 13...Qxc4 is not good for black: 14.Nc3 Rxf7 15.Rxf7 Kxf7 16.Qh5+ Kg8 17.b3! and white is winning, I believe. Thus, black has to take the bishop with his pawn: 13...dc which leads to perpetual: 14.Qh5 g6 15.Nh6+ Kg7 16.Qg5 Bh3+ 17.Kxh3 Qg1 and after exchange on f4 white king is exposed to checks.

There's one more point for black. Instead of 17...Bg4 (in 13.Nc3 variation) black can keep attacking after 17...Qf6!?, threatening 18...Bg4 and white looses his queen, so 18.Nf3 seems to be forced, and now 18...Ng6 19.Rh1 Rad8 gives black strong initiative.

Perhaps, it is already well known theory.  Smiley
« Last Edit: 11/02/08 at 15:24:39 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #38 - 07/25/07 at 20:07:23
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Nice hint, thanks Smiley
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #37 - 07/25/07 at 18:11:18
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If you want some answers about Traxler counter Gambit take a café (in french in the text) , a chesscafe.com of course and you 'll see over the horizons ! Wink
« Last Edit: 07/26/07 at 11:18:11 by Dji »  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #36 - 05/15/07 at 09:05:36
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Quote:
.
One small question:
Did you consider answering 16.d3  with 16....Ng6 to avoid 17.Rf4 ?



No i've  missed this one, it's probably better but black still fight for the draw.

Otherwise  i've begun some researchs in the line 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 9.Ke4

 I've seen somewhere on the web that pierre Meinshon (a french FM) recommend  9...Rf8 but it's only a table of contents so i can't tell you more
« Last Edit: 05/15/07 at 10:51:50 by Dji »  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #35 - 05/14/07 at 19:19:00
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Thx Dji

For sharing this game. I think youre probably right that 15...g5! is a strong move.
One small question:
Did you consider answering 16.d3  with 16....Ng6 to avoid 17.Rf4 ?

  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #34 - 05/14/07 at 12:22:17
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A recent game with the line 13.Bb3 play with the  very sympathique John
   Elburg,John- Dji   corr. Thematic Traxler 02/2006
   13.Bb3 Rf7 14.Qg1 Qe5 15.Nc3 Ne7!? my novelty but maybe christophe Nirav's 15...g5! is stronger
16.d3 ed3 17.Rf4! Bf5 18.Qe3! Qd6 19.g4 Bg6 20.Rf7 Bf7 21.Qd3 c6 22.Qg3 Qd7 23.Be3 Be6 24.Rf1 Bg4 25.Ne4 Qe6 26.Ng5 Nf5 27.Ne6 Ng3 28.Kg3 Be6 29.Re1 Kf7 30.c3 b6 31.Bc2 h6 32.Bd4 c5 33.Be5 Rd8 34.Rf1+ Kg8 35.Rf4 Rd7 36.Rf2  and in this unclear position we agreed a draw!
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #33 - 04/29/07 at 21:42:41
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Quote:
=============================================================
My own preference as black was for
7.Ke3,Qh4 8.g3.Nxg3 9.hxg3,Qd4+ 10.Kf3,d5 11.Rh4,e4+ 12.Kg2,0-0
although my personal opinion is that white is objectively a little better after
13. Bb3 (instead of 13.Nc3).



I 've play some correspondance's game against 13.Bb3 recently and i think this move is stronger than 13.Nc3 too.

I have a different opignon about the schmid attack (6.b4):After 6...Nb4 7.d4!? Bd4 8.c3 Bc5 withe can play more solid with 9.0-0 and things are not realy clear. Perso I prefer 6...Bxb4 because it's rules out the d4 idea!
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #32 - 04/29/07 at 20:55:34
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I think 6.b4 is not the most difficult reply to handle. My own preference is 6....Nxb4.
Now white has two reasonable answers:

variation I
7.Bb3 when 7....d5 should give black reasonable play:
8.0-0?!, Bg4! 9.Qe1,h6 10.Nf3,Bxf3 with a comfortable position for black

variation II (the original Schmidt-attack)
7.d4!?, Bxd4 8.c3, Bc5 9.cxb4, Bd4! 10.Bb3,Rf8 11.f4,d6 12.fxe5,Bxe5 13.Nf7,Rxf7 14.Bxf7, Bxa1
Black is somewhat better (Schmidt-Augustat, corr. 1981, 0-1 (29)).
This game is a fine example of precomputer correspondence play by both players.
=============================================================
On the variation
5.....Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2+,Nxe4+ 7.Ke3

7.Ke3, Qe7 8.Nxh8 (8.Kxe4 is refuted by d5+) ,d5 9.Qg6+ was considered a refutation I think.
I dont quit see how things would be improved by
7.Ke3, Qh4 8.g3,Qe7 , as after 9.Kxe4,d5+ 10.Bxd5 the attack with Qh4+ is no longer available.

My own preference as black was for
7.Ke3,Qh4 8.g3.Nxg3 9.hxg3,Qd4+ 10.Kf3,d5 11.Rh4,e4+ 12.Kg2,0-0
although my personal opinion is that white is objectively a little better after
13. Bb3 (instead of 13.Nc3).

I am interested if anything new has been found, as I played a number of correspondence TGT-tournaments with the traxler around 1998.



  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #31 - 04/29/07 at 18:43:24
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Estrin's Bxf2+ seems to be the most in the spirit of the Traxler here.
  
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C57: Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #30 - 04/28/07 at 16:18:59
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I think that after
5 Bxf7+ Ke7 Schmid's attack is unjustly neglected
My only experience with Traxler was in a ICCF Thematic , where I played 6 b4!?
All the authors prefer ?! , but they don't agree about  a refutation :
Bxb4 , Nxb4 , Bd4 , or Bxf2+ ( Estrin's choice and that of my opponent ) Which to choose ?
« Last Edit: 12/04/11 at 16:58:19 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #29 - 04/26/07 at 17:49:41
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In yearbook 56 martin Bennedik 've written  :' About 7...Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 I wonder what happens after 9.Ke4 ? '
« Last Edit: 04/27/07 at 11:24:58 by Dji »  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #28 - 04/25/07 at 20:21:24
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Are you 100% sure?  Grin Do you have any idea, when he will update this stuff in part 13 of that excellent column Hard Chess?
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #27 - 04/25/07 at 16:24:26
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1174512176/15#25 date=1177456497][quote]I started playing 1...e5 just to play the traxler.[/quote]

Wow! That's faith (or enthusiasm)!

Forgive my ignorance (I know nothing of this theory, though I'm interested!), but I had thought that although NIC 55 'busted' 8 ...Ng3 with [9 hg Qd4 10 Kf3 d5 11 Rh4 e4 12 Kg2 0-0] 13 Nc3!?, NIC [i]56[/i] unbusted it with [13 ...dc 14 Qh5] Ne7!?. [/quote]

Yes, if I'm not mistaken, a certain Mark Morss contributed that analysis.  There is some further discussion in the next issue, I believe.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #26 - 04/25/07 at 15:33:39
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When I said just, I meant primarily. I find 1 e4 e5 more tactical. Up till then I had played the French, the first opening I had learnt without thinking critically about alternatives.

NIC 56 unbusting it is news to me. I only got NIC 55 from a correspondence player living nearby. Much as I love chess, I try to limit spending on it (a profit from tournaments is preferable). What is the status of NIC 56's improvement?

I dislike having to find best play for both sides; one is bad enough. If you have NIC 55, follow their 7...Qe7 for white and you should see how black can improve with W's Pg3.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #25 - 04/24/07 at 23:14:57
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[quote]I started playing 1...e5 just to play the traxler.[/quote]

Wow! That's faith (or enthusiasm)!

Forgive my ignorance (I know nothing of this theory, though I'm interested!), but I had thought that although NIC 55 'busted' 8 ...Ng3 with [9 hg Qd4 10 Kf3 d5 11 Rh4 e4 12 Kg2 0-0] 13 Nc3!?, NIC [i]56[/i] unbusted it with [13 ...dc 14 Qh5] Ne7!?. Or am I getting mixed up? I guess it's academic if 8 ...Qe7 is good for Black -- I'd love to know what you think best play might be after that.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #24 - 04/24/07 at 18:04:44
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New in Chess 55 busted 7 Ke3 Qh4 8 g3 Nxg3?! Black should play 8...Qe7!, an improved version of 7...Qe7 when black's bishop can slot in on Bh3; I think white is eventually theoretically lost.

I started playing 1...e5 just to play the traxler. I was looking through responses to Ng5 in BCO2 and came across 4...Bc5; it's arrogance and "your neglect of developement will be punished" attitude appealed to me. Playing it in tournaments and league matches is a total pleasure, particuarly to see the differing impressions on their faces as the game progresses.

5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ is the fun line. I actually think black is theoretically winning with best play. Bxf7+ is still exciting but in a different way. After 6 Bd5 play Rf8; NCO gives an unclear game. 6 Bb3 is the new move which actually seems worse. Play 6...d6 which immediatly threatens Bg4 & sets the trap of 7 Nxf7 Qf8. W's Q no longer has an escape route becasue of Bb3.

The only line that can spoil black's fun is 5 d4 when when white can bail out into an ending after 5...d5! 6 dxc5 dxc4 7 Qxd8+ Nxd8 although I think black should have a positional advantage.

The Traxler is a unique, once in a lifetime opening; nowhere else are material v time, developement & structure so sharply balanced. Play it when you get the opportunity.
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #23 - 04/01/07 at 18:34:25
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/31/07 at 14:37:11:
From the YB 55 we learnt that the pseudo refutation of the Traxler was 5.Nf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 (Kf1! according to one of the article of YB63-68 is better for White but Dji say that in YB 70, Black has improved here)Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and now 7..Qh4! 8.g3 Nxg3! 9.hxg3 Dd4+ 10.Kf3 d5! 11.Rh4 e4 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3(the supposed refutation from YB55)13..dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7! (The forgoten move that save Black, pointed out by a reader in YB56)
15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.Nfg5


A game, without any pretention,  to show there is plenty of life in this line  16...Qd5!? (instead of h6) 17.d3 cxd3 18.cxd3 h6 19.Nf3 Ng6 20.Rh1 Rad8 21.Bg5 Rd7 22.Rae1 Qxd3 23.Nc3 b5 24.a3 a5 25.Bc1 b4 26.axb4 axb4 27.Re3 Qc4 28.Ne2 Rd3 29.Ned4 Rxd4 30.Nxd4 Qxd4 31.Rhe1 Ne5 32.Qd1 Nd3 33.Rh2 Bg6 34.Rf1 Rxf1 35.Qxf1 Ne5 Qf4 Ng4+ 37.Kg1 Qd1+ 38.Qf1 Nxe3 39.Bxe3 Qd5 40.Qf4 c5 41.g4 Be4 42.Kf2 b3 43.g5 h5 44.Bd2 Qd4+ 45.Ke1 Bd3 46.Qxd4 cxd4 47.Bf4 Be4 48.Be5 d3 49.Bg3 Kf7 50.Kd2 Kg6 0-1 corr. Traxler Thematic tournemant 5.Nxf7 (SEMI) Rebaudo,Nino - Dji
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #22 - 03/31/07 at 14:49:27
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Thanks very much ArKheiN! Anything on 5 d4?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #21 - 03/31/07 at 14:37:11
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From the YB 55 we learnt that the pseudo refutation of the Traxler was 5.Nf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2 (Kf1! according to one of the article of YB63-68 is better for White but Dji say that in YB 70, Black has improved here)Nxe4+ 7.Ke3 and now 7..Qh4! 8.g3 Nxg3! 9.hxg3 Dd4+ 10.Kf3 d5! 11.Rh4 e4 12.Kg2 0-0 13.Nc3(the supposed refutation from YB55)13..dxc4 14.Qh5 Ne7! (The forgoten move that save Black, pointed out by a reader in YB56)
15.Nxe4 Bf5 16.Nfg5 h6 17.Nc3 Bg4 18.Nh3 Qf6 19.Rxg4 Qf1+ 20.Kh2 Rf2+ 21.Nxf2 Qxf2
with perpetual check. All this line comes from one of the article of YB63-68 available for free in the New in chess website in a pdf file.

« Last Edit: 03/31/07 at 18:35:32 by ArKheiN »  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #20 - 03/31/07 at 14:20:53
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So, Dji, for those of us without YB70 could you (or anyone) give us a brief indication of what Black's best line(s) might be against 5 Nf7 (esp. with 7 Ke3) and 5 d4? I'm sure it's not "the end" but is Black currently suffering here?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #19 - 03/30/07 at 13:09:48
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/30/07 at 08:14:51:
Nice, but in theYB 63-68 I think there are somes +/- évalutations even after 5.Bxf7 or 5.d4, from what you know about the subject, do you think White has any clear +/-, or Black is still ok with improvments, let's say +/= or unclear at worse?

yes but It's a vast debate! there 's some answers on this thread others somewhere on this site (look at 1.e4 e5 some months ago ) others on Pinski book Two knight defence..... but it's an entirely open debat and it's not the end.
But you know Play the Traxler it's something special: the Spirit against material   Ah Ah Ah
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #18 - 03/30/07 at 08:14:51
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Nice, but in theYB 63-68 I think there are somes +/- évalutations even after 5.Bxf7 or 5.d4, from what you know about the subject, do you think White has any clear +/-, or Black is still ok with improvments, let's say +/= or unclear at worse?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #17 - 03/30/07 at 07:55:58
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/29/07 at 12:27:45:
Hello dji, and do you have the YB70? Does it respond to the 63-68? If yes does it gives improvments for Black? And give uncovered lines from the YB 63-68?



Yes there is many improvements in the line 5.Nxf7 .The title is 'It's hard to kill the Traxler gambit.'

For example the great refutation 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 is in fact favourable to black!!
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #16 - 03/29/07 at 12:27:45
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Hello dji, and do you have the YB70? Does it respond to the 63-68? If yes does it gives improvments for Black? And give uncovered lines from the YB 63-68?
  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #15 - 03/29/07 at 09:18:45
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It's important to know that a lot of answers (in the line 5.Nxf7) to 63-68 yearbooks articles are bring in yearbook 70 .
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #14 - 03/28/07 at 20:13:56
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That is why I wrote this.

MNb wrote on 03/26/07 at 20:13:54:
This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.


It has been long (pre silicon in fact) since I looked at the Traxler. Without any doubt with computer aid one can find many mistakes and wrong evaluations in old theory. Eg in your line 20...exd4 also looks pretty good.
So I don't know what the best lines are for White these days. As I don't plan to play it the first 10 years or so, I am too lazy to find out.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #13 - 03/28/07 at 18:15:30
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MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:11:54:
Estrin once again: 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3.
Pachmann prefers 14...Nxg4 15.Bxg5+ Ke8 unclear.



A possible continuation is 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3 Nxe3 18.fxe3 exd4 19.exd4 c5
20.Rxf8 Rxf8 21.d5 c4+ 22.Kh2 Rf1 and despite the pawn less black's perspective are excellent!
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #12 - 03/28/07 at 02:11:54
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Estrin once again: 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3.
Pachmann prefers 14...Nxg4 15.Bxg5+ Ke8 unclear.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #11 - 03/27/07 at 08:41:06
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MNb wrote on 03/26/07 at 20:13:54:
This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.
Estrin does not like 8.d3?! either because of Brunnenberg-Niesche, corr 1963.




But 14.- Qd7xg4 win back the pawn, isn't it?

Treference game's of Pinski is Shabolov- Ivanov
9.Qe1 h6 10.d4 Bb6 11.h3. hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Na3 leading to a position very unclear after 21 moves
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #10 - 03/26/07 at 20:13:54
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This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.
Estrin does not like 8.d3?! either because of Brunnenberg-Niesche, corr 1963.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #9 - 03/26/07 at 13:11:43
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I and Pinski prefer 6.Bd5 Rf8 (instead of 6...d6) 7.0-0 (7.d4 Nd4 8.c3 Ne6 and no problemo!) d6
8.c3 (8.d3?! Pinski) Bg4 9.Qe1 (9.Qb3!? Bb6!Pinski) h6 10.d4 Bb6! Pinski
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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micawber
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #8 - 03/26/07 at 06:03:55
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Thx Mnb,

I am not so sure about the pawnsac 7.d4,Bxd4
(1.e4.e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bc4,Nf6 4.Ng5,Bc5 5.Bxf7+,Ke7 6.Bd5,d6 7.d4,Bxd4)


r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/3Bp1N1/3bP3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -

It seems to me that after

8. c3, Bb6
9.Nf7,Qf8
10.Bg5,Rg8
    Again 10.Nxh8 is not to be recommended: 10....Nxd5
11.Qh5           White's advantage seems not so clear to me

11......, h6           Natural
12.Bxf+,gxf         And now neither 13.Nxh6,Rg5 nor 13.0-0,Bg4 look very appealing.

Instead white might choose to continue
8.Nf3!?, Bb6 9.Bg5,Qe8 10.Nh4 (unclear) as in Sergeev (2506)-Simacek (2402);Olomouc 2001
----------------------------
All in all I still think 7.c3 is best. This move was GM-tested in
Karpov-Beljavski 1983 [a game not included in Estrins monograph  Wink]

  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #7 - 03/25/07 at 20:15:04
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Both GM's clearly haven't read Estrin's 1978 booklet on the Traxler. It is all in there and even a little more.
I also might add Lepesjkin's 7.d4!? Bxd4 8.c3 Bb6 9.Nf7 Qf8 10.Bg5 Rg8 11.Qh5 "and White's advantage is beyond doubt."
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #6 - 03/25/07 at 10:36:13
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Here is something to amuse the Traxler fans:
A.Karpov-N. Short, 11-01-2007

After the moves:
1.e4,e5
2.Nf3,Nc6
3.Bc4,....

3......, Nf6?  Hey, didnt Short put a questionmark behind this move last year?
4.Ng5!         Exclamation mark by Short
4......, Bc5    Traxler ! (4...d5? says Short)
5.Bxf7+,Ke7 White safest option according to many forum guests
6.Bd5 , d6


r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2bBp1N1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -

From here I will replace Short as a commentator Wink:

7.0-0 ?,
                   7.c3 is probably best, while 7.d3 is playable
                   7.Nxf7? is not advisable: 7....Qf8 8.Nxh8??,Bxf2+ with a much improved Traxler -+

7..........,Bg4!  The refutation
8.Qe1??         Whites only try is 8.Nf3,Nd4: for instance 9.Bc4,Nxf3 10.gxf3,Bh3 11.Re1,Qe8!
                     with some advantage to black


r2q3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2bBp1N1/4P1b1/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1QRK1 b - -


8.........,Nxd5?  Here Nigel misses a move that provides excellent winning chances.
                     Was this move found by a supercomputer? Nay:
                     the best move in this position was allready found in the game
                     Bahr-Augustutat, DDR, 1971



So two experienced GM's succeeded to get 3 moves out of 4 wrong!
We'll not follow this game furhter

Instead lets look how they handled the position in 1971!
Bahr-Augustat, 1971 DDR


8.........., Nd4!!    Threatens Nxc2 among other things....
9.Bb3    , h6!
10.Nf7   
10........, Qd7
     Black is allready preparing to deliver mate on the white squares
11.h3                Note that after 11.Nxh8,Nf3+! black wins:
                        12.Kh1,Nxe1 --- 12.gxf,Bxf and mate is unavoidable.
11........., Bxh3! Another power move
12.Qe3  , Bg4!    and white resigned (black could also have played 12....Nxb3 13.Qxb3,Be6-+)

I am sure white was glad to have chosen a safe variation  Wink
[center] [img]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=[/img [/center



  
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #5 - 03/22/07 at 20:13:23
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/22/07 at 11:52:40:
How do you know that it isn't played anymore on corr at good level? And there still exist thematics tournament.


And I own the magazines of NBC of the last 20 years. Previously the Traxler popped up regularly. Not long ago though I read an article in this magazine that those gambits are regarded too dangerous to play in qualification tournaments. The same happened to the Latvian and the BDG.
But you are right - I forgot about the thematics. I always have regarded these "for fun", not "for real". My personal opinion.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #4 - 03/22/07 at 12:39:54
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/22/07 at 11:52:40:
How do you know that it isn't played anymore on corr at good level? And there still exist thematics tournament.


There are corr databases. MNb maybe checked UltraCorr or ICCF databases.
http://www.chessmail.com/sales/ultracorr-info.html
http://gamesarchive.iccf.com/
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #3 - 03/22/07 at 12:32:54
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MNb wrote on 03/22/07 at 01:40:18:
As you might know, using computers is allowed when playing for ICCF (email and webserver to be precise). In pre-silicon age the Traxler was quite popular in corr. chess. Nowadays it has completely disappeared.
Says something, I suppose.


I didn't know that.  But I don't think Black gets full comp after 5. Bxf7+ Ke7  6. Bd5 or 6. Bb3.  I suppose there must be a thread or two here devoted to this.

Personally I have less confidence 5. Nxf7.  I suspect it doesn't produce a White advantage, but it gives Black so much of what he wants.  The win would have to be quite convincing before I could be convinced to take a swim in those waters.
  

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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #2 - 03/22/07 at 11:52:40
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How do you know that it isn't played anymore on corr at good level? And there still exist thematics tournament.
  
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MNb
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Re: The current statut of the Traxler
Reply #1 - 03/22/07 at 01:40:18
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As you might know, using computers is allowed when playing for ICCF (email and webserver to be precise). In pre-silicon age the Traxler was quite popular in corr. chess. Nowadays it has completely disappeared.
Says something, I suppose.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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The current statut of the Traxler
03/21/07 at 21:22:56
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Hello everyone, my question is simple, the Traxler, a so pretty opening that has survived for long time despite his reputation, is it refuted or not? I ask that after having reading a NIC Yearbook from 2000, and then the Yearbook63-68, 5 articles where Martin de Zeeuw analyse all the critical lines and have a final conclusion that there are somes ways to reach the evaluation +/-

Is it (still) right? Did someone gave newer analysis to improve Black's play from theses articles? What might be the best evaluation for White or Black at the moment?

  
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