My only gripe with the Pirc is that the White player has such a wide choice of attacking options. I played it for a couple of years and I never saw the same attacking setup twice!

If it wasn't the 150 attack it was the Austrian, if it wasn't the Austrian it was some nasty Bc4,Qe2 then e5 hack... or Bg5 lines or even 2.f4 (so I really understood where you guys were coming from earlier in the discussion).

I just got fed up with White being able to try and hack me off the board from a multitude of different directions. Even the fianchetto variation is not without it's drop of poison!!

MNb wrote on 04/05/08 at 20:14:35:


I agree. Castling into it is never going to be easy for Black, and I used to avoid doing it as a matter of course. But it's intesting to give it a whirl if you're up for a complicated stuggle. 

I have two game references stored for this line. 

The first way to take "advantage" (if you can call moving pawns in front of your King taking advantage  ) of White not playing Bh6 is to play h5.

Here my game ref is our man Sarno again...


[Event "Calvia ol (Men)"]
[Site "Mallorca"]
[Date "2004.10.20"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Bao, Quang"]
[Black "Sarno, Spartaco"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2376"]
[BlackElo "2385"]
[PlyCount "80"]
[EventDate "2004.10.15"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "14"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2005.01.27"]
[WhiteTeam "Vietnam"]
[BlackTeam "Italy"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "VIE"]
[BlackTeamCountry "ITA"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f3 Bg7 5. Be3 O-O 6. Qd2 c6 7. O-O-O b5 8. h4
h5 9. Kb1 Re8 10. Bg5 Qa5 11. a3 Nbd7 12. g4 Rb8 13. gxh5 Nxh5 14. Nge2 b4 15.
Na2 c5 16. axb4 cxb4 17. Rg1 Nc5 18. Nec1 Na4 19. Nb3 Qb6 20. Bh6 a5 21. Bxg7
Kxg7 22. Rg5 e5 23. dxe5 dxe5 24. Rxh5 gxh5 25. Bb5 Qxb5 26. Qg5+ Kf8 27. Qh6+
Kg8 28. Rg1+ Bg4 29. Qxh5 Qf1+ 30. Nac1 Qxg1 31. Qg5+ Kf8 32. Qh6+ Ke7 33. Qg5+
f6 34. Qg7+ Ke6 35. fxg4 Nc5 36. Qa7 Rec8 37. g5 a4 38. Na5 b3 39. Nc4 bxc2+
40. Kxc2 Qd4 0-1

h5 is remisicent of the Soltis Dragon, and Re8 reminds me of Black's stuggles in the main line Yugoslav. Maybe Nh3-g5 is a better plan than Bg5 and a3 is unnecessary with Nc3-e2-c1 available.

The second game sees Black hit back with c5. 

[Event "Katerini op"]
[Site "Katerini"]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ehlvest, Jaan"]
[Black "Pandavos, Panayotis"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2635"]
[BlackElo "2430"]
[PlyCount "52"]
[EventDate "1992.08.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "GRE"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.01.01"]

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 O-O 6. O-O-O c6 7. f3 b5 8. h4
b4 9. Nce2 Qa5 10. Kb1 c5 11. h5 c4 12. hxg6 fxg6 13. Bh6 c3 14. Qe3 Be6 15. d5
b3 16. Nxc3 Bxh6 17. Qxh6 bxc2+ 18. Kxc2 Bd7 19. Bd3 Ba4+ 20. Kb1 Nbd7 21. Nxa4
Qxa4 22. Nh3 Rab8 23. Rd2 Qb4 24. Rc2 Rf7 25. Ng5 Ne5 26. Nxf7 Nxd3 1-0

White could just go dc and Nc1 and seems tidy. But the way Ehlvest gets on with it looks pretty convincing too.

There's lots of other ideas though, like say in the second game 10. ...Nbd7 11. h5 Nb6, or in the first game, instead of Re8, generate Queenside play with Qc7/Nb8-d7-b6/b4/c5. 

Lots of  virgin territory here.

Yes of course, line a3) on p263. This highlights the move order difficulties that the Book crucially covers, with 8. ...Bxh6?! but 9. ...Bxh6! i.e provoking Kb1 with 8. ...Qa5, and then playing 9. ...Bxh6 so deflect the White Queen from d2 to avoid Nd5 (which is a threat after Kb1), and then playing 9. ...Be6 next move to provoke a3, as otherwise White can go 9. ...b4 10. Nce2 Be6 11. Nc1

I'd almost go as far as saying that not doing this precision with Black is more than ?!, it might even be ?? as White's attack is very strong unless Black is right in there with the counterplay.  

Also note that the computer won't point this out to you!

J-dog wrote on 02/04/08 at 05:32:38:


NB This castling into it is very dangerous. I used to be of the delay castling school, but based the Jobava game (see Game 60 in the book) I've been trying that move order out.

Based on a move order I encountered recently, I came across the following Sarno game (not sure if this is in the book).

[Event "Reggio Emilia 9798 40th"]
[Site "Reggio Emilia"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Efimov, Igor"]
[Black "Sarno, Spartaco"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2540"]
[BlackElo "2400"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "1997.12.26"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "11"]
[EventCountry "ITA"]
[EventCategory "10"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1998.04.09"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 O-O 6. f3 c6 7. O-O-O b5 8. Bh6
Bxh6 9. Qxh6 b4 10. Nce2 Qa5 11. Kb1 Be6 12. Nc1 Rc8 13. h4 Qd8 14. Nge2 Qf8
15. Qd2 a5 16. Nf4 Nbd7 17. h5 Qg7 18. g4 Nf8 19. g5 Ne8 20. hxg6 hxg6 21. Rh4
c5 22. d5 Bd7 23. Bc4 f6 24. Rg1 fxg5 25. Rxg5 Nf6 26. e5 N6h7 27. Rg1 Bf5 28.
e6 Qd4 29. Nxg6 Qxg1 30. Nxe7+ Kh8 31. Nxf5 Rc7 32. Rg4 Qh1 33. Qf4 Qe1 34.
Nxd6 a4 35. Nf7+ Rxf7 36. Qxf7 1-0

You'll find a full annotation of it in Megabase.

Interesting Qa5-Qd8-Qf8 manouver, but I think Black's position is going wrong. But I had an idea. What about 11. ...Qh5!?

Swapping the Queens is nothing, and if the White Queen goes back, the Black Queen can go back to a5. So is this = if Black doesn't want to risk it with the Be6 attack?

Ok this book sat on my shelf for several months with little attention: I checked out some lines in the Archbishop and that was about it.

Well, I pulled it out on Friday night and decided to start exploring it, going over the recommended games in his repertoire suggestions.  I read the Austrian chapters and then the Be3/f3 and 150 attack chapters.  This is an awesome book!  I am really impressed and I am SO glad I bought it.  I have had fun so far trying to fight the Austrian in online blitz, with good results.   

Congratulations Dr. Vigus- you should be proud of such a fine book! 

Note: after looking at the 150 attack material, my head was spinning from the timing and order of black's counterplay.  Qa5, c6, b5, Nbd7, e5, b4, Bxh6 all have delicate timing vs. white's numerous setups and attacking options.  I'm looking forward to getting a grip on it, though I know it will take some serious study and/or sorting out.  If I can clarify and organize my findings, I will try to post them here.  Thanks again Dr. Vigus.

Stigma, I agree that coverage of 2nd move alternatives is a gap in Pirc books generally. (No, I don't think Bauer considered these, though I don't have his book to hand right now.) 
I don't trust the ...c6 and ...Na6 approach against an early Bc4 either: White can usually play a3 and preserve the bishop! But perhaps the ...Nxe4 line idea I suggested might be a good alternative?
1 e4 d6 2 c4 c5 3 Ne2 e5!? can't be bad for Black, don't you think? King's Indian or Benoni players (which I am not, but some Pirc players are) can also play 3...Nf6 4 Nc3 g6 4 d4 Nbd7 I guess, though perhaps someone who knows Sämisch positions well would say that the knight shouldn't jump to d7 so early - I'm not sure.
I can see that there might be room somewhere or other for an article on these variants from Black's point of view - though again I hesitate a bit about that, since one's choices depend on non-Pirc preferences (e.g. whether you prefer the Symmetrical English with ...c5 or ...e5, etc). 
Plenty of food for thought!

I would have liked to include discussion of White's second and third move alternatives in my book, but in the end I really did feel that I needed quite a strict definition of the Pirc in order to keep the material under control. Space was a major factor, as was the fact that Christian Bauer analyses 3 f3 and 3 Bd3 in his book on the Philidor, which appeared around the same time as The Pirc in Black and White. But also, 2 f4, 2 g3, 2 Nc3, 2 c4, 2 d3, 2 Nf3 (and the list could - just possibly - go on!) are such transpositional moves that it would have been difficult to achieve reasonably full (i.e. not merely repertoire) coverage. 
Having said that, these moves all have their interest, and Closed Sicilian and Grand Prix approaches can indeed be unpleasant for unprepared Pirc players, as I have occasionally discovered the hard way. I suspect it is best to delve into some Sicilian theory (Palliser's Closed Sicilian book is a friendly place to start, but no doubt there are other threads on this). 1 e4 d6 2 g3 d5?! 3 exd5 Qxd5 4 Nf3 avoids this, but Black is a tempo down on 1 e4 c5 2 g3 d5 lines. Likewise 1 e4 d6 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 f4 d5 4 e5 d4 5 Nce2 looks an unpleasant kind of Alekhine. 
Another interesting but unsatisfactory line is 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 Bg4!? 4 Ne2 Qc8 5 h3 Bd7 6 d4 and although he can't castle yet, White can follow with g4. I remember a nice Van der Wiel game as Black, but he was playing someone much weaker.

This is what I vaguely plan for myself:
1 e4 d6 2 d3 e5 
2 g3 g6 3 Bg2 Bg7 4 c4 c5 - not a very scary form of Symmetrical English
2 Nc3 Nf6 3 f4 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Bc4 Nxe4!?, avoiding the Grand Prix, e-g- 6 Bxf7+ Kxf7 7 Nxe4 Rf8. I must confess that I haven't done any work on the latter line - not computer or database checked - so please don't trust it too easily and it would be good to hear other opinions.
- if White plays g3 at some point, we go into a Closed Sicilian.

That's only a start, and I had been sort of wondering about reaearching a small article on all this, strictly from Black's perspective...

Very glad to hear people have been finding the book useful, even though John Watson has managed to do some damage to one or two lines in his recent Pirc updates!