MNb wrote on 04/12/07 at 15:09:28:

More like Hendriks-Nieuwelink 1996
Plus look at this one. I havent analyzed it yet, but the queen sac looks amazing (if correct). I think white fell off his chair after seeing move 14
[Event "Turin ol (Men) 37th"]
[Site "Turin"]
[Date "2006.05.21"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Vajda,Levente"]
[Black "Sutovsky,Emil"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C54"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Bg5 h6 8.Bh4 g5
9.Nxg5 hxg5 10.Bxg5 Kg7 11.Qf3 Be6 12.Nd2 Rh8 13.h4 Qe7 14.Bd5 Nxd5 15.Bxe7 Ndxe7 16.b4 Bb6
17.b5 Na5 18.g3 Rag8 19.d4 Kf8 20.Kg2 Ng6 21.Rh1 Nxh4+ 22.Rxh4 Rxh4 23.Qf6 Bh3+ 24.Kf3 Rh5
25.Ke3 Rg6 26.Qd8+ Kg7 27.Rh1 c5 28.Qe7 cxd4+ 29.Kd3 dxc3 30.Nf3 Bxf2 31.Kc2 Bxg3 32.Kxc3 Bf2
33.Kb4 b6 34.Ka4 Rg3 35.Nd2 Bc5 36.Nb3 Nc4 37.Rh2 Bg2 38.Nxc5 Nb2+ 0-1

MNb wrote on 04/12/07 at 07:43:37:

You got my point in any case
Quote:

Well it isnt that bad either. But my point mainly was to show that the a4-b4 plan is definately an option iso standard ruy play.
Quote:

Trust me on this one With some exceptions after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 the move Bg5 by white is usually not the best (I wouldnt call it a bad move, just a bad idea). The thing is that after h6 (with or without black castling), you would either have to
-retreat after which h6 is definately not a weakening
-exchange after which you lose the bishop pair and free black's play (or open a g-file on your own king)
-play Bh4 after which g5 is always in the air (which allows some nasty options such as h5-h4, Nh5-f4 or f5). Even when black has castled and white hasnt, this can be very dangerous.

The problem is that the knight isnt on c3 (the worst piece in the d3 italian imo) allowing a jump to d5.

Whatever the merits of 4.Ng5, the question was about 4.d3

It is possible to play it as a sort of declined Evans, espcially when black doesnt play a6. I think the game below transposes to the Evans declined with Bb6. Note that black's 6th isnt the best according to theory (6...a6), though to me that has always sounded weird. If black plays 6..a6 you have the Ruy plan as best course of action. One important thing to note is that Bg5 is almost never a good idea in these c3-d3 lines.
[Date "1986.10.??"]
[White "Dolmatov,Sergey"]
[Black "Goldin,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C54"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 d6 6.b4 Bb6 7.a4 a5 8.b5 Ne7
9.0-0 Ng6 10.Nbd2 0-0 11.Bb3 c6 12.Ba3 Re8 13.Nc4 Bc7 14.Ne3 d5 15.Qc2 h6 16.Rfe1 Be6 17.Rad1 Qd7 18.Nd2 Bd6 19.Bc1 Bf8 20.exd5 cxd5 21.d4 exd4 22.cxd4 Rac8 23.Qa2 Bb4 24.Ba3 Qd6 25.Bxb4 Qxb4 26.Nc2 Qd6 27.g3 h5 28.Rc1 Rc3 29.Ne3 Rec8 30.Rxc3 Rxc3 31.Nb1 Rc8 32.Rd1 h4 33.Qd2 hxg3 34.hxg3 Ne4 35.Qe1 Ne7 36.Bc2 b6 37.Nd2 Nc3 38.Ra1 Qb4 39.Nf3 Qb2 40.Kg2 Rc7 41.Qh1 Ne4 42.Bxe4 dxe4 43.Ng5 Nd5 44.Qh7+ Kf8 45.Nxe6+ fxe6 46.Nxd5 exd5 47.Qh8+ Kf7 48.Qd8 Qxa1 49.Qxc7+ Kg8 50.Qd8+ Kh7 51.Qxd5 Qe1 52.Qh5+ Kg8 53.d5 Qb4 54.Qe5 Qxa4 1-0

Well, the evaluation of 4.Ng5 is open to discussion like almost all opening variations. But I still have to find the first book, that claims a White opening advantage after 4.Ng5. That is why I object calling this move "objectively" best.

"equal, but the burden of proof is on Black" is about the most subjective evaluation of a position I can think of. It is equally easy to state, that White suffers from the burden of proving, that he can survive the pressure for the rest of the game. From my own experience and from discussions with other gambiteers (one of them being Jozef Boey, a long time ago) I can assure you, that gambiteers do not think like "o my, how heavy is the burden of proving full compensation".
With Andrew Brett I am under the impression, that strong players (say ELO 2400+) seem to prefer 4.d3 and 5.c3. Not that every amateur should follow that example. My only point is, that Markovich and Woofwoof only show their own preferences and nothing more.

Back to the topic. I think, we can safely say, that 4.Ng5 combines better with the Evans than 4.d3. The reason is, like Willempie has pointed out, the transposition 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3. Playing that strongly invites 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3, hence no Evans. So objectively speaking for the Evans adherent it makes more sense to chose 4.Ng5, like Tsjigorin already knew.
Though I have tried to prove the opposite, 4.d4 and 4.0-0 (hoping for Bc5 5.b4) must be regarded inferior to both 4.Ng5 and 4.d3.

4.Ng5 is a duffer's move
4.d3 can be played in basically to ways: with Nc3 or with c3. The former is the Canal variation, but is harmless of black pays a little attention (Capa almost got caught at unawares once). The second is much better and can give rise to similar play to the closed ruy (trying to set up e4 and d4). However white has the bonus that unlike in the ruy he can expand on the queenside with a4 and b4, which is similar to the Evans declined.

This is a recent game with the pure ruy idea (note that white doesnt get to play d4 quick, but still is slightly better). Though to be fair a player like Paco should have known better than to go for the manoeuvres with the knight and queen on the k-side (if it hadnt been blindfold I would have called this an amateur plan):
[Event "Amber-blind 16th"]
[Site "Monte Carlo"]
[Date "2007.03.17"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Gelfand,Boris"]
[Black "Vallejo Pons,Francisco"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C54"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 a6 6.Bb3 Ba7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Re1 d6
9.h3 h6 10.Nbd2 Nh5 11.Nf1 Qf6 12.Be3 Nf4 13.Ng3 Be6 14.Bxf4 exf4 15.Nh5 Qe7 16.Nxf4 Qf6 17.Nd5 Bxd5 18.Bxd5 Ne7 19.Bb3 Ng6 20.d4 c5 21.e5 dxe5 22.dxe5 Qb6 23.Qd6 Qxd6 24.exd6 b5 25.Rad1 Rfd8 26.Bc2 Nf4 27.Ne5 g6 28.Nc6 Rd7 29.Re7 Rxd6 30.Rxd6  1-0

I do think that 4.Ng5 is probably the best move for white if he wants to take the initiative, which he should really, given that he has the 1st move advantage. So make it count, i say. I personally dont see how any other 4th move alternative gives white a better fight and more aggression. 4.d3 is too tame for my liking.

I myself play 4.Ng5 against the 2 Kts.

Markovich wrote on 04/10/07 at 17:33:26:


As one might say the same of 4.d3, I don't get why 4.Ng5 should be better. Or is it a matter of taste? Does not sound "objectively". 

I play the evans gambit against the move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5, however when black plays the two knights I am at a loss.  I use to play e5 and the two knights defense against the italian game, so I know how to defend against all the popular gambits, fried liver attack, scotch gambit, goring gambit, danish gambit and all that other jazz.   Can anyone tell me how to play the italian game against the two knights 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3.  IF you could tell me the key ideas and move orders that are importants thanks in advance.