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Normal Topic Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black (Read 5264 times)
Mori
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #6 - 02/04/08 at 12:22:27
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Hi bohdan!
I certainly believe that 2 d6 is a bit unflexible.THere are several White systems where it is better for black to play c5 and d5 in one move.When playing c5 it is often better to not have a pawn on d6,as this might mean that black has to recapure with the d6 pawn not to let white take again.
I often come up against 1 e6 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3f4 which I believe is dubious for white. Tiger´s modern recommend 3 ..c5 and my opponents often play 4 c3 Then after 4..cxd4 5 cxd4 d5! black gets a good position.
3 ..c5 is also definitely better aganst the dubious 3 Be3.dubious because White can not take on c5.
Also some white players various systems with an early e5and f4 meeting c5 with c3.Then black has the possibitity to use careful judgement whether to play d6 or d5.d6 should be played when white can not play d5! If you allow the pawns to e5 and d5 you are dead,in most cases.THen it is better to play d5,fixing the pawn on d4 as a target of attack.I have a VERy good score in these positions.THe Knight should go to h6 and f5.THe bishop to g4 before e6 is played.Good white players will often try to delay Nf3 You might then be forced to play Be6,But white then needs to delay developement,which is risky.
I have recently experimented with an early d5 whenever white does not play an early Nc3 White´s best is to take on d5 You can then play a gambit with Nf6 c4 c6 Dxc6 Nxc6,or take with the queen.The best version of taking are when white plays an early c3.THen c4 is losing a tempo and Nc3 is not possible,so both the gambit and taking with the queen are good.I might well be missing the best strategies gor white,but if you re not a grandmaster,this works out well in many positions! Smiley
  
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bohdan
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #5 - 02/04/08 at 11:14:49
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I had in mind some lines of Modern, where 3… c5 rather than 3… d6 is more preferable choice. For example:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Be3 c5 or

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.f4 c5

Would here 3…d6 bring difficulties or the game will transpose anyway?
  
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #4 - 02/04/08 at 09:54:18
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The main problem, if it is one, is that White can play (1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6) 3.c4.  There is nothing necessarily wrong with this for Black, who can choose between transposing to the King's Indian or various options which keep to a 'Modern' path - so after 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3, say, Black has 4...Nc6, 4...Nd7 4...e5 and (I imagine) 4...c5 as viable alternatives to a King's Indian.  I suppose he could also try 4...e6 and later ...b6, ...Nd7, ...Ne7, ...Bb7 etc. with a Hippo, although for some reason that always strikes me as a little bit indulgent in this particular form.

Another, probably slightly lesser problem, is that White can meet 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 with a set-up based on c3, Bd3 and Nf3 - this is the approach recommended by Kaufman in The Chess Advantage in Black and White, for example.  I confess that I found this a somewhat peculiar recommendation - after a later Bg5 it's essentially a Torre Attack against the King's Indian which, while not entirely without merit, is certainly not the most challenging system.  On the other hand, some Black players don't like it when White has d4 solidly defended.

Note that after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6, White's 3.Bd3, although again a perfectly valid try, can be met with 3...e5, with the idea 4.c3 d5!? which is generally thought to equalise fairly comfortably.  for what it's worth I've played this line as Black against weaker opposition and found it a little tough to generate winning chances - but that was probably just me not playing very well.
  

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bohdan
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #3 - 02/04/08 at 08:46:25
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Hi,

first thanks to all for the nice answers, and I would to ask another question:

It is appeared last time few nice sources on playing systems based on 1…d6 for Black. But often they say that you should play 1.d4 d6 only when you like playing Pirc.
Are any problems with the move order 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6, that one should prefer 2…Nf6, instead of 2…g6. The last move implies transposition to Modern (i.e. Tiger’s 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3… d6)

Thanks in advance

Bohdan
  
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #2 - 04/14/07 at 01:16:03
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The point should be made too that if you select the Modern, how you might meet 3 c4 and how you might counter other lines may, at least if you choose the 2 ...d6 move order, be intimately related to each other. For instance, a Modern player wishing to avoid transposition to an Austrian via the Accelerated Gurgenidze that MNb mentions (1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 c6 4 f4 d5), or via a pseudo-Gausel System (1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5 -- which however looks likely to transpose to an Ujtelky), will have different non-KID options versus 3 c4 from those available via the 2 ...Bg7 move order (e.g. 1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 c4 e5!? as against, say, 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 c5!?) -- and of course this might equally be put the other way round. Moreover these anti-Austrian choices will obviously commit you to specific variations against the Classical, namely 1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 Nc3 c6 4 Nf3 Bg7 or 3 ...a6 4 Nf3 Bg7 (4 ...b5!?). So, although we can agree not to discuss 3 c4 [i]per se[/i], we have to acknowledge that the mere possibility of this move may cast a long shadow over several other variations in the Modern.
  
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Re: Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
Reply #1 - 04/13/07 at 20:47:51
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Sorry for mentioning it, but the biggest disadvantage of the Modern is 3.c4 indeed. I am sure, that quite a few Pirc players would turn to 1...g6, if it was not for this one.
White also has some extra options with 3.c3 or 4.c3, but they don't look very dangerous to me. Most ambitious try for Black is playing ...c5 at some stage, which often transposes to the Sicilian Lasker/Alapin 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 say 4.Bd3 g6.
The biggest advantage imo, is Black's wider choice to meet the Austrian. He can play 3...c5 or 4...c5, the Ujtelky (4...a6, 5...Nd7, 6...b5), the Hippo (e6, Ne7) or the Gurgenidze (3...c6, 4...d5). Quite subtle is 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 c6 idea 4.f4 d5, arguing that the bishop is better on f8 than on g7.
It also can be nice to leave the knight on g8 for a while, if White plays a variation with Be3 (or Bg5) and Qd2. White would like to exchange black squared bishops, which Black avoids. Instead he expands on the queen's wing with c6, b5, evt. Nd7, Rb8, Nb6, Nc4. Another idea is to play an early Nd7 and e5.
  

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bohdan
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Pirc vs. Modern: winning chances for Black
04/13/07 at 07:27:54
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Hi all,

Could someone give tips on advantages/disadvantages of the move orders in these openings (but without referring to 3.c4 in Modern as there are a lot of useful discussion on it here).
I am rather interesting which opening gives more chances to play winning (non-drawish) chess. In Tiger’s Modern Hillarp states that it is Modern, due to the imbalance structure. But what is your opinion.

Thanks in advance

Bohdan

If this topic was already discussed, could you, please, refer me to the links.
  
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