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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6 (Read 34165 times)
Markovich
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #38 - 05/02/07 at 16:47:24
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/02/07 at 07:51:28:
I understand what you say Markovich, I agreed with you about the ending after 9.Nxa7 in my previous messages.

But the RL player has to be prepared against 4..fxe4 and 4..Nf6, and after 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 he has to be prepared against 5..d5 and 5..Nf6 and after 5..d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 he has to be prepared against 7..Qg5 and 7..Qd5.

Does White have more than a +/= advantage everywhere after 4.Nc3?

If 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 was the only playable move ok, the preparation for a good game would be easy: just watch 9.Nxa7 and the ending with the pawn up. But even here, the Black player might think that 9.f4 is for the reason we know, the most played move, and he would ready to face 9.Nxa7 from time to time and get specialised to manage to draw the ending with the pawn down with some technique and better feeling of the position.

I would personnally take the risk myself for sure to play the Schliemann if 9.Nxa7 is still so rare.


I think the alternatives before 7...Qg5 are at least as bad for Black.  Perhaps I'm wrong, since some have defended 4...Nf6 here.  But certainly 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 Nf6 is not regarded well these days; nor, to my knowledge, is 4...Nd4.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #37 - 05/02/07 at 07:51:28
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I understand what you say Markovich, I agreed with you about the ending after 9.Nxa7 in my previous messages.

But the RL player has to be prepared against 4..fxe4 and 4..Nf6, and after 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 he has to be prepared against 5..d5 and 5..Nf6 and after 5..d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 he has to be prepared against 7..Qg5 and 7..Qd5.

Does White have more than a +/= advantage everywhere after 4.Nc3?

If 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 was the only playable move ok, the preparation for a good game would be easy: just watch 9.Nxa7 and the ending with the pawn up. But even here, the Black player might think that 9.f4 is for the reason we know, the most played move, and he would ready to face 9.Nxa7 from time to time and get specialised to manage to draw the ending with the pawn down with some technique and better feeling of the position.

I would personnally take the risk myself for sure to play the Schliemann if 9.Nxa7 is still so rare.
« Last Edit: 05/02/07 at 11:21:13 by ArKheiN »  
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Markovich
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #36 - 05/02/07 at 02:13:38
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/01/07 at 19:31:30:
Personnally if I was a Ruy Lopez player, I would probably play 4.d3 against the Schliemann because it is the best move for the time needed to play it well, it is maybe quite easy to keep a small advantage whitout deep work.



I can't understand that attitude when outright refutation is on the board.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #35 - 05/01/07 at 19:31:30
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I wonder what is the recommandation of Khalifman in his book OWATA1 after 7..Qg5.

What I know is that after 8.Qe2 Nf6, 9.f4 is overrated compared to 9.Nxa7, and in the master practice, after 9.f4 Qxf4, the sharp 10.Nxa7 is quite rare (it seems to be mostly played by corr players, and by the computers because they probably assess it to be +-), I think the "official" theory gives 10.Ne5+(10.d4 often transpose but give extra options to Black) 10..c6 11.d4 Qh4+ 12.g3 Qh3 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Bg5 0-0-0 15.0-0-0 as +/= and most of the master's games follow this path but I think it is closer to equal than "+/=". But indeed, the practice show that Black have to play quite accurately to have a full equality here because it might be a little more easy to play for White, and I think Khalifman gives this line too.

Personnally if I was a Ruy Lopez player, I would probably play 4.d3 against the Schliemann because it is the best move for the time needed to play it well, it is maybe quite easy to keep a small advantage whitout deep work.

  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #34 - 05/01/07 at 18:04:56
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/01/07 at 11:43:25:
Simsim: Markovitch just pointed out that in the line with the direct Nxa7, Black can't play Kxd7 after Bxd7 because of the lost ending, which it's not the case with f4 followed by Nxa7.


ArKheiN: i was aware of that all the time! actually the move Kxd7 in my second post was refering to the variation 9. f4  Qxf4 10. Nxa7 Bd7 11.Bd7+ Kxd7!. i wanted to agree with your (and markovich's) assessment.

obviously markovich got me wrong and assumed that i was talking about 9. Sa7+ Bd7 10. Bxd7+ Kxd7? 11. Qb5+! forcing the exchange of queens, which is of course very bad for black.   

actually i was trying to clarify this by my last post (with limited success).  Cry

you already convinced me with your first post that 9. Na7 is (much) better than 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7. so i already learned a alot!  Smiley

and about the draw by repetition: thank you for clarifying.
i'm just not sure if white (if he wants it) is really able to force it (if black really wants to avoid it). i was thinking about 13... Nd5 (i'm not sure if it is playable) instead of 13...Kd7 (allowing the draw by repetition).

and thanks for the game. 



  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #33 - 05/01/07 at 11:43:25
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Simsim: Markovitch just pointed out that in the line with the direct Nxa7, Black can't play Kxd7 after Bxd7 because of the lost ending, which it's not the case with f4 followed by Nxa7.

Now after 9.f4 Qxf4 10.Nxa7 Bd7 11.Bxd7+ Kxd7 12.Qb5+ Ke6 13.Qb3+(for 13.Qxb7 Bd6 14.Qb3+ Kd7 15.Qf7 the key position, watch the lines below) after 13..Kd7, White can force a draw by repetition with 14.Qb5+ Ke6 etc.

But White would not be happy with a draw like this if they wanted to show a refutation...

So after 13.Qb3+ Kd7 White can try to play for a win after 14.Qxb7 Bd6 15.Qb5+ Ke6 16.Db3+ Kd7 17.Qf7+ we reach the first key position (but we could have reached it in move 15).

Now after 17.Qf7+ Black can play 17..Be7 and 17..Kd8. I will only show the latter because I know it better.

17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Nc6+ Kc8 19.Ne7+ here again, Black can play 2 moves, 19..Kb7 or 19..Bxe7. I have more confidence with the later.

19..Bxe7 20.Qxe7 Re8 21.Qc5 Ra6 and in this wild position, believe me or not, I claim that Black have a dynamical equality. I won't show all my analysis but I will give one of my correspondance game against a German player.

[Date "2006.09.20"]
[ECO "C63"]
[White "Brüske, Thomas"]
[Black "Schmid, Pablo"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Nxe5 dxe4 7. Nxc6 Qg5 8. Qe2 Nf6 9. f4 Qxf4 10. Nxa7+ Bd7 11. Bxd7+ Kxd7 12. Qb5+ Ke6 13. Qb3+ Kd7 14. Qxb7 Bd6 15. Qb5+ Ke6 16. Qb3+ Kd7 17. Qf7+ Kd8 18. Nc6+ Kc8 19. Ne7+ Bxe7 20. Qxe7 Re8 21. Qc5 Ra6 22. g3 Qh6 23. 0-0 Nd7 24. Qb5 Rf6 25. d4 e3 26. Rxf6 Qxf6 27. Qe2 Qxd4 28. a4 Re6 29. a5 Ne5 30. Ra3 Nf3+ 31. Kh1 Qd5 32. Rxe3 Ng5+ 33. Qg2 Qd1+ 34. Qg1 Qd5+ 35. Qg2 Qd1+   1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #32 - 05/01/07 at 09:58:13
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Markovich wrote on 05/01/07 at 02:05:23:
[quote author=simsim link=1177230554/30#30 date=1177958369]
Indeed, but unfortunately, 10...Kxd7 is not a good answer to 9. Nax7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+, which is the critical path.  White plays 11. Qb5+ and brings off the queens.


sorry i should have used the move numbers to avoid confusion.
i was refering to (after 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7 Bd7 11. Bd7+) 11...Kxd7! the move ArKheiN pointed out. so i agree that it more or less "refutes" the move-order i gave.

i'm not sure about the forced draw you mentioned (in the line with 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7+):
9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7 Bd7 11. Bd7+ Kxd7! 12. Qb5+ Ke6 13. Qxb7 Ld6 14.Qb3+ Kd7
and then 15. Qb5+... with repetition of moves?

white can also play 16. Qf7+ Le7 17. Sc6 Kxc6 18. Qxe7 Re8 19. Qa3

but isn't 14... Sd5 also an option for black?

  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #31 - 05/01/07 at 02:05:23
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simsim wrote on 04/30/07 at 18:39:29:
ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Kxd7 seems to be a very good answer. i wasn't aware of this move. very enlightening.
when i played the game i remembered f4 as the bookmove and Na7 from my computer analysis (never saw this move in a book) and mixed the lines. it seemed like an improvement.


Indeed, but unfortunately, 10...Kxd7 is not a good answer to 9. Nax7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+, which is the critical path.  White plays 11. Qb5+ and brings off the queens.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #30 - 04/30/07 at 18:39:29
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ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Kxd7 seems to be a very good answer. i wasn't aware of this move. very enlightening.
when i played the game i remembered f4 as the bookmove and Na7 from my computer analysis (never saw this move in a book) and mixed the lines. it seemed like an improvement.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #29 - 04/30/07 at 18:35:36
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Quote:
@arkhein
Youre right of course, that Markovich meant var. II., as he is quite knowledgeble on these openings.
Still I suspect quite a few readers are not, and his ommission unfortunately left open the issue of the importance of the capture on d7.
So I thought it worthwile to point out why it is necesseray to take on d7 first.


Thanks for clearing that up.  I should post less here off the top of my head.  I omitted the capture.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #28 - 04/30/07 at 17:47:11
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@arkhein
Youre right of course, that Markovich meant var. II., as he is quite knowledgeble on these openings.
Still I suspect quite a few readers are not, and his ommission unfortunately left open the issue of the importance of the capture on d7.
So I thought it worthwile to point out why it is necesseray to take on d7 first.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #27 - 04/30/07 at 17:23:17
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Iam sure that Markovich forgot to put the intermediate 10.Bxd7!+ Nxd7 because he probably gave the lines by head. The "varation II" is the good one and Black have to fight for the draw (I don't know if they can manage to do it with best play for both side, but they have good practical chance to draw but that is not very fun).
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #26 - 04/30/07 at 17:06:07
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I feel there has been some confusion in the move order to Markovich variation:
I too consider this a riskfree way for white to play for a win, but some care is needed:

1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5, f5 4.Nc3, fxe 5.Nxe4,d5 6.Nxe5,dxe4 7.Nxc6,Qg5 8.Qe2,Nf6
9.Nxa7+, Bd7


r3kb1r/Nppb2pp/5n2/1B4q1/4p3/8/PPPPQPPP/R1B1K2R w KQkq -


Now Markovich gives the remarkeble variantion 10.f4, Qc5  11.Nb5 (or is it 11.Nxb5 !?  Shocked  )
overlooking 11.Nxb5,Bxb5 -+ and black has won two pieces in one move.  Wink

The timing of the capture on d7 may be important:
I. 10.f4?! followed by Bxd7+
II 10.Bxd7+! at once


variation I.
10.f4,Qc5 11.Bxd7+, Kxd7 and now white runs into trouble if he follows the Markovich plan:
12.Nb5 (12.Qb5+,Kd6!) 12....,Qxc2 13.d4,Bb4+ 14.Kf2
And now black doesnt have to play 14....Qxe2?!.
14......e3+! is an intermediate move that is possible because of the threats Re8+/Ng4+
15.Kf1,Qf5   and black has an good game.

variation II.  10.Bxd7+!

10.Bxd7+,........
10.........., Nxd7      (Now 10....Kxd7 11.Qxb5+ with a won endgame)
11.f4!
11.........., Qc5   
     (11...Qxf4 12.d4!, Qf5 13.Nb5 0-0-0 14.Rf1! +- (Orlando-Lanzani 1991)
12.Nb5,  Qxc2
And now white has two ways to enter a pleasant endgame
--------> 13. Nc3!?, 0-0-0 14.Qxe4 (Kovalevskaya-Kryukova, 2002)
--------> 13. d4!  , Bb4+ 14.Kf1/f2, Qxe2 15.Kxe2 (Pilgaard-Simonsen 2003)

My conclusion is that white should first take on d7
and his next move should depend on how blacktakes back:
(a) knight takes back: only then 11.f4!
(b) king takes back: exchange queens with Qb5

The reason is that if white inserts 10.f4 Qc5 , black can take on d7 with his king without being
forced to trade queens on b5.



  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #25 - 04/30/07 at 00:35:18
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ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Right.  ...Kxd7 is fully equal for Black after 10. Nxa7+.  That way lies a lot of complexity, and a perp for White if he wants to take it, but no advantage.  But there is absolutely no reason to go that way once you know that 9. Nxa7+!, not 9. f4 "!" as almost universally advertised, is very good for White.  Somebody has to show how Black can draw the ending to which I've pointed, before any other response to Black's play can be considered.  My opinion.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #24 - 04/29/07 at 19:50:39
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To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.
  
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