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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6 (Read 48666 times)
Markovich
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #38 - 05/02/07 at 16:47:24
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/02/07 at 07:51:28:
I understand what you say Markovich, I agreed with you about the ending after 9.Nxa7 in my previous messages.

But the RL player has to be prepared against 4..fxe4 and 4..Nf6, and after 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 he has to be prepared against 5..d5 and 5..Nf6 and after 5..d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 he has to be prepared against 7..Qg5 and 7..Qd5.

Does White have more than a +/= advantage everywhere after 4.Nc3?

If 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 was the only playable move ok, the preparation for a good game would be easy: just watch 9.Nxa7 and the ending with the pawn up. But even here, the Black player might think that 9.f4 is for the reason we know, the most played move, and he would ready to face 9.Nxa7 from time to time and get specialised to manage to draw the ending with the pawn down with some technique and better feeling of the position.

I would personnally take the risk myself for sure to play the Schliemann if 9.Nxa7 is still so rare.


I think the alternatives before 7...Qg5 are at least as bad for Black.  Perhaps I'm wrong, since some have defended 4...Nf6 here.  But certainly 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 Nf6 is not regarded well these days; nor, to my knowledge, is 4...Nd4.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #37 - 05/02/07 at 07:51:28
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I understand what you say Markovich, I agreed with you about the ending after 9.Nxa7 in my previous messages.

But the RL player has to be prepared against 4..fxe4 and 4..Nf6, and after 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 he has to be prepared against 5..d5 and 5..Nf6 and after 5..d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 he has to be prepared against 7..Qg5 and 7..Qd5.

Does White have more than a +/= advantage everywhere after 4.Nc3?

If 4..fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qg5 was the only playable move ok, the preparation for a good game would be easy: just watch 9.Nxa7 and the ending with the pawn up. But even here, the Black player might think that 9.f4 is for the reason we know, the most played move, and he would ready to face 9.Nxa7 from time to time and get specialised to manage to draw the ending with the pawn down with some technique and better feeling of the position.

I would personnally take the risk myself for sure to play the Schliemann if 9.Nxa7 is still so rare.
« Last Edit: 05/02/07 at 11:21:13 by ArKheiN »  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #36 - 05/02/07 at 02:13:38
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/01/07 at 19:31:30:

Personnally if I was a Ruy Lopez player, I would probably play 4.d3 against the Schliemann because it is the best move for the time needed to play it well, it is maybe quite easy to keep a small advantage whitout deep work.



I can't understand that attitude when outright refutation is on the board.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #35 - 05/01/07 at 19:31:30
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I wonder what is the recommandation of Khalifman in his book OWATA1 after 7..Qg5.

What I know is that after 8.Qe2 Nf6, 9.f4 is overrated compared to 9.Nxa7, and in the master practice, after 9.f4 Qxf4, the sharp 10.Nxa7 is quite rare (it seems to be mostly played by corr players, and by the computers because they probably assess it to be +-), I think the "official" theory gives 10.Ne5+(10.d4 often transpose but give extra options to Black) 10..c6 11.d4 Qh4+ 12.g3 Qh3 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Bg5 0-0-0 15.0-0-0 as +/= and most of the master's games follow this path but I think it is closer to equal than "+/=". But indeed, the practice show that Black have to play quite accurately to have a full equality here because it might be a little more easy to play for White, and I think Khalifman gives this line too.

Personnally if I was a Ruy Lopez player, I would probably play 4.d3 against the Schliemann because it is the best move for the time needed to play it well, it is maybe quite easy to keep a small advantage whitout deep work.

  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #34 - 05/01/07 at 18:04:56
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ArKheiN wrote on 05/01/07 at 11:43:25:
Simsim: Markovitch just pointed out that in the line with the direct Nxa7, Black can't play Kxd7 after Bxd7 because of the lost ending, which it's not the case with f4 followed by Nxa7.


ArKheiN: i was aware of that all the time! actually the move Kxd7 in my second post was refering to the variation 9. f4  Qxf4 10. Nxa7 Bd7 11.Bd7+ Kxd7!. i wanted to agree with your (and markovich's) assessment. 

obviously markovich got me wrong and assumed that i was talking about 9. Sa7+ Bd7 10. Bxd7+ Kxd7? 11. Qb5+! forcing the exchange of queens, which is of course very bad for black.   

actually i was trying to clarify this by my last post (with limited success).  Cry 

you already convinced me with your first post that 9. Na7 is (much) better than 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7. so i already learned a alot!  Smiley

and about the draw by repetition: thank you for clarifying.
i'm just not sure if white (if he wants it) is really able to force it (if black really wants to avoid it). i was thinking about 13... Nd5 (i'm not sure if it is playable) instead of 13...Kd7 (allowing the draw by repetition).

and thanks for the game.   



  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #33 - 05/01/07 at 11:43:25
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Simsim: Markovitch just pointed out that in the line with the direct Nxa7, Black can't play Kxd7 after Bxd7 because of the lost ending, which it's not the case with f4 followed by Nxa7.

Now after 9.f4 Qxf4 10.Nxa7 Bd7 11.Bxd7+ Kxd7 12.Qb5+ Ke6 13.Qb3+(for 13.Qxb7 Bd6 14.Qb3+ Kd7 15.Qf7 the key position, watch the lines below) after 13..Kd7, White can force a draw by repetition with 14.Qb5+ Ke6 etc.

But White would not be happy with a draw like this if they wanted to show a refutation...

So after 13.Qb3+ Kd7 White can try to play for a win after 14.Qxb7 Bd6 15.Qb5+ Ke6 16.Db3+ Kd7 17.Qf7+ we reach the first key position (but we could have reached it in move 15).

Now after 17.Qf7+ Black can play 17..Be7 and 17..Kd8. I will only show the latter because I know it better. 

17.Qf7+ Kd8 18.Nc6+ Kc8 19.Ne7+ here again, Black can play 2 moves, 19..Kb7 or 19..Bxe7. I have more confidence with the later.

19..Bxe7 20.Qxe7 Re8 21.Qc5 Ra6 and in this wild position, believe me or not, I claim that Black have a dynamical equality. I won't show all my analysis but I will give one of my correspondance game against a German player.

[Date "2006.09.20"]
[ECO "C63"]
[White "Brüske, Thomas"]
[Black "Schmid, Pablo"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f5 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 6. Nxe5 dxe4 7. Nxc6 Qg5 8. Qe2 Nf6 9. f4 Qxf4 10. Nxa7+ Bd7 11. Bxd7+ Kxd7 12. Qb5+ Ke6 13. Qb3+ Kd7 14. Qxb7 Bd6 15. Qb5+ Ke6 16. Qb3+ Kd7 17. Qf7+ Kd8 18. Nc6+ Kc8 19. Ne7+ Bxe7 20. Qxe7 Re8 21. Qc5 Ra6 22. g3 Qh6 23. 0-0 Nd7 24. Qb5 Rf6 25. d4 e3 26. Rxf6 Qxf6 27. Qe2 Qxd4 28. a4 Re6 29. a5 Ne5 30. Ra3 Nf3+ 31. Kh1 Qd5 32. Rxe3 Ng5+ 33. Qg2 Qd1+ 34. Qg1 Qd5+ 35. Qg2 Qd1+   1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #32 - 05/01/07 at 09:58:13
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Markovich wrote on 05/01/07 at 02:05:23:
[quote author=simsim link=1177230554/30#30 date=1177958369]
Indeed, but unfortunately, 10...Kxd7 is not a good answer to 9. Nax7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+, which is the critical path.  White plays 11. Qb5+ and brings off the queens.


sorry i should have used the move numbers to avoid confusion.
i was refering to (after 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7 Bd7 11. Bd7+) 11...Kxd7! the move ArKheiN pointed out. so i agree that it more or less "refutes" the move-order i gave. 

i'm not sure about the forced draw you mentioned (in the line with 9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7+): 
9.f4 Qxf4 10. Sa7 Bd7 11. Bd7+ Kxd7! 12. Qb5+ Ke6 13. Qxb7 Ld6 14.Qb3+ Kd7 
and then 15. Qb5+... with repetition of moves?

white can also play 16. Qf7+ Le7 17. Sc6 Kxc6 18. Qxe7 Re8 19. Qa3

but isn't 14... Sd5 also an option for black? 

  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #31 - 05/01/07 at 02:05:23
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simsim wrote on 04/30/07 at 18:39:29:
ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Kxd7 seems to be a very good answer. i wasn't aware of this move. very enlightening.
when i played the game i remembered f4 as the bookmove and Na7 from my computer analysis (never saw this move in a book) and mixed the lines. it seemed like an improvement.


Indeed, but unfortunately, 10...Kxd7 is not a good answer to 9. Nax7+ Bd7  10. Bxd7+, which is the critical path.  White plays 11. Qb5+ and brings off the queens.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #30 - 04/30/07 at 18:39:29
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ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Kxd7 seems to be a very good answer. i wasn't aware of this move. very enlightening.
when i played the game i remembered f4 as the bookmove and Na7 from my computer analysis (never saw this move in a book) and mixed the lines. it seemed like an improvement.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #29 - 04/30/07 at 18:35:36
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Quote:
@arkhein
Youre right of course, that Markovich meant var. II., as he is quite knowledgeble on these openings.
Still I suspect quite a few readers are not, and his ommission unfortunately left open the issue of the importance of the capture on d7.
So I thought it worthwile to point out why it is necesseray to take on d7 first.


Thanks for clearing that up.  I should post less here off the top of my head.  I omitted the capture.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #28 - 04/30/07 at 17:47:11
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@arkhein
Youre right of course, that Markovich meant var. II., as he is quite knowledgeble on these openings.
Still I suspect quite a few readers are not, and his ommission unfortunately left open the issue of the importance of the capture on d7.
So I thought it worthwile to point out why it is necesseray to take on d7 first.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #27 - 04/30/07 at 17:23:17
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Iam sure that Markovich forgot to put the intermediate 10.Bxd7!+ Nxd7 because he probably gave the lines by head. The "varation II" is the good one and Black have to fight for the draw (I don't know if they can manage to do it with best play for both side, but they have good practical chance to draw but that is not very fun).
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #26 - 04/30/07 at 17:06:07
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I feel there has been some confusion in the move order to Markovich variation:
I too consider this a riskfree way for white to play for a win, but some care is needed:

1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5, f5 4.Nc3, fxe 5.Nxe4,d5 6.Nxe5,dxe4 7.Nxc6,Qg5 8.Qe2,Nf6
9.Nxa7+, Bd7


r3kb1r/Nppb2pp/5n2/1B4q1/4p3/8/PPPPQPPP/R1B1K2R w KQkq -


Now Markovich gives the remarkeble variantion 10.f4, Qc5  11.Nb5 (or is it 11.Nxb5 !?  Shocked  )
overlooking 11.Nxb5,Bxb5 -+ and black has won two pieces in one move.  Wink

The timing of the capture on d7 may be important:
I. 10.f4?! followed by Bxd7+
II 10.Bxd7+! at once


variation I.
10.f4,Qc5 11.Bxd7+, Kxd7 and now white runs into trouble if he follows the Markovich plan:
12.Nb5 (12.Qb5+,Kd6!) 12....,Qxc2 13.d4,Bb4+ 14.Kf2
And now black doesnt have to play 14....Qxe2?!. 
14......e3+! is an intermediate move that is possible because of the threats Re8+/Ng4+
15.Kf1,Qf5   and black has an good game.

variation II.  10.Bxd7+!

10.Bxd7+,........
10.........., Nxd7      (Now 10....Kxd7 11.Qxb5+ with a won endgame)
11.f4!
11.........., Qc5   
     (11...Qxf4 12.d4!, Qf5 13.Nb5 0-0-0 14.Rf1! +- (Orlando-Lanzani 1991)
12.Nb5,  Qxc2
And now white has two ways to enter a pleasant endgame
--------> 13. Nc3!?, 0-0-0 14.Qxe4 (Kovalevskaya-Kryukova, 2002)
--------> 13. d4!  , Bb4+ 14.Kf1/f2, Qxe2 15.Kxe2 (Pilgaard-Simonsen 2003)

My conclusion is that white should first take on d7 
and his next move should depend on how blacktakes back:
(a) knight takes back: only then 11.f4!
(b) king takes back: exchange queens with Qb5

The reason is that if white inserts 10.f4 Qc5 , black can take on d7 with his king without being
forced to trade queens on b5.



  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #25 - 04/30/07 at 00:35:18
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ArKheiN wrote on 04/29/07 at 19:50:39:
To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.


Right.  ...Kxd7 is fully equal for Black after 10. Nxa7+.  That way lies a lot of complexity, and a perp for White if he wants to take it, but no advantage.  But there is absolutely no reason to go that way once you know that 9. Nxa7+!, not 9. f4 "!" as almost universally advertised, is very good for White.  Somebody has to show how Black can draw the ending to which I've pointed, before any other response to Black's play can be considered.  My opinion.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #24 - 04/29/07 at 19:50:39
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To simsim, after 11.Bxd7, the best move for Black is Kxd7! And here I believe that Black have full equality. I totally agree with Markovich and what he says about 4.Nc3, I think the only line which give more than  an objective equality for White is to play 9.Nxa7! with the ending with a pawn up where Black have to fight for a draw, and not the mediatised 9.f4 which it is probably equal with best play.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #23 - 04/27/07 at 19:22:24
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Markovich wrote on 04/25/07 at 12:36:35:
Alias wrote on 04/25/07 at 11:49:52:
For the d3-variation, there are the books by Kaufman and Greet to study and there's also a NiC yb article.

Before a recent team match we noticed that one of the players in the opposing team always used the Schliemann. A quick study of the section in the Kaufman book helped our player to get a large advantage right out of the opening. He didn't know the line before.



I can only think that Black was the worse player, or that he didn't know what he was doing.  4. d3 is for people who would rather try to nurse a borderline += into an eventual win with scant risk of complication, than book up suffiently to play 4. Nc3! and actually win.  In other words, it's for sissies.  (Oh all right, it's a simple way to pursue the point if you're the better player -- well, what unambitious system isn't?)

Ivanov and Kulagin is a most excellent and indeed essential Schliemann reference.  So by all means, try to find a copy.  However, I'm not sure if it treats 4...Nf6.

There actually are some strategic considerations in the position that arises from the theoretical main line, 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6 Qg5  8. Qe2 Nf6  9. f4"!" (9. Nxa7+!) 9...Qxf4  10. Ne5+ c6  11. d4 Qh4+  12. g3 Qh6  13. Bc4 Be6.  Black will enter the middle game with a grip on the kingside light sqares, a passed but isolated e-pawn, and his king in a somewhat rickety queenside castled position.  The position is dynamic and there is nuance in the play; notably, how to deploy each side's the rooks.  Having completed his development, Black sometimes just plays ...Kb8, ...Ka8, because there's nothing much better to do and it increases the security of his king.  Typically Black's knight goes to d5 and dares White to play c4.  Speelman famously beat Timman in this position, for the very good reason that he understood it better (Timman played c4 and d4-d5; Speelamn played c6-c5 and then blockaded).  So it's not quite true that there's no strategy in the Schliemann. 

If that were really White's best against this defense, I'd still be playing it.  Black is no worse there than he is in the other lines of the Spanish, or not much worse, anyway.  But unfortunately, as I have said elsewhere on this board, I have never found anything against 9. Nxa7+! Bd7  10. f4!.  It seems that Black's best is 10...Qc5  11. Nb5 Qxc7  12. d4! Bb4+  13. Kf2 Qxe2+  14. Kxe2, after which Black's pawn-down ending looks quite dreary.  Ivanov and Kulagin say +=, but I think that's optimistic.  Maybe +=, if you have Capablanca's endgame technique, but to defend such endgames is not why I play 1...e5.  If anybody has an antidote to 9. Nxa7+! I'd like to know about it.  It is amazing how 9. Nxa7+! gets ignored in modern theory books.  Offbeat Spanish, for a very notable example.

My impression is that White played imprecisely at the Melody Amber.  After 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 Nf6  6. Nxf6+! Qxf6  7. Qe2 Be7  8. Bxc6 dxc6  9. Nxe5 Bf5  10. 0-0! (I hope I remembered that correctly!), White is supposed to meet 10...0-0-0 with 11. d3 and 10...0-0 with 11. d4.  Instead if I recall correctly, at the Melody Amber, 10...0-0  11. d3 was played.  I don't have the score; am I wrong?  In any case, I hardly think that it is a ringing endorsement of the Schliemann that it was used to win a blindfold game.  Also it is perhaps notable that 4...Nf6 was not chosen.

Before people became aware of 10. 0-0!, the old theory was 10. d3 0-0! =, 10. d4 0-0-0! =.  But with 10. 0-0!, White waits to see where Black castles, then plays the d-pawn accordingly.  This works because Black has no way to temporize, and because 10...Bxc2 is disastrous for him.



i wanted to point out the following variation for white:

....  9. f4 Qxf4 10. Na7+! 

i played this in a game 1 month ago

10... Bd7 

the other replies:
10... c6 11. Nxc6 Bd7 12. Nd4 ...
10... Kd8 11. Nxc8 ...

11. Bxd7 Nxd7 12. d4  Qf5 13. Nb5 

for me it seems even better than the line with the immediate 9...Na7!,  since the queen can't go to c5 once she has taken the pawn on f4. how could black have improved? 


  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #22 - 04/26/07 at 20:50:29
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Alias wrote on 04/26/07 at 08:45:22:

I think that before doing lots of studies on the main lines, one should have a look at the d3-lines.

From Black's point of view I disagree, as 4.Nc3 is critical. The 4.d3 variation must be the second one to look at.
I don't like 4...Nd4 very much because of deviations like 5.0-0 and 5.Bc4. As a thumbrule Black should play x...Nd4 in answer to x.Nxe5.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #21 - 04/26/07 at 16:15:20
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MnB

in the Kramnik game he played 0-0 but followed up with d4 not the d3 idea.

But in a later round Radjabov played 10 ......qe6 - I haven't analysed it to see if stands up to scrutiny.

[Event "Amber-blind 16th"]
[Site "Monte Carlo"]
[Date "2007.03.17"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Leko,Peter"]
[Black "Radjabov,Teimour"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C63"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 
9.Nxe5 0-0 10.0-0 Qe6 11.Re1 Bc5 12.Nf3 Qxe2 13.Rxe2 d6 14.d3 Bg4 15.Be3 Bb4 16.a3 Ba5 
17.b4 Bb6 18.Bxb6 axb6 19.Re7 Bxf3 20.gxf3 Rf7 21.Rxf7 Kxf7 22.a4 c5 23.b5 Ke6 24.Kf1 d5 
25.Ke2 d4 26.Kd2 Ke5 27.Re1+ Kd6 28.Rg1 g6 29.Rg3 Ke6 30.Rg4 Rxa4 31.Re4+ Kd6 32.Rf4 Rb4 
33.Rf7 h5 34.Rf6+ Ke5 35.Rxg6 Kf5 36.Rg7 Rxb5 37.Rxc7 Rb1 38.h4 Rf1 39.Ke2 Rc1 40.Kd2 Rf1 
41.Ke2 Rc1 42.Kd2 Rf1 1/2

Back on the 'wimpy' 4 d3 - Magnus Carlsen played this v Radjabov and it looked like Black was under pressure.

By the way anyone know what's so wrong with 4......Nd4 which may originally have been Alekhine's idea


OK, I stand corrected.  Here it was 9...0-0 instead of 9...Bf5.  I'll have to consult my sources before I can say any more about it.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #20 - 04/26/07 at 08:45:22
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MNb wrote on 04/25/07 at 20:10:44:
Alias wrote on 04/25/07 at 13:21:57:
As I see it, d3 is an excellent short cut, but I'm probably a sissy.  Roll Eyes


Certainly, but if I recall correctly, that was not what Fuster's question was about ....


You're right, but the d3 was discussed later in the thread and I think that before doing lots of studies on the main lines, one should have a look at the d3-lines.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #19 - 04/26/07 at 08:37:39
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MnB

in the Kramnik game he played 0-0 but followed up with d4 not the d3 idea.

But in a later round Radjabov played 10 ......qe6 - I haven't analysed it to see if stands up to scrutiny.

[Event "Amber-blind 16th"]
[Site "Monte Carlo"]
[Date "2007.03.17"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Leko,Peter"]
[Black "Radjabov,Teimour"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C63"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 
9.Nxe5 0-0 10.0-0 Qe6 11.Re1 Bc5 12.Nf3 Qxe2 13.Rxe2 d6 14.d3 Bg4 15.Be3 Bb4 16.a3 Ba5 
17.b4 Bb6 18.Bxb6 axb6 19.Re7 Bxf3 20.gxf3 Rf7 21.Rxf7 Kxf7 22.a4 c5 23.b5 Ke6 24.Kf1 d5 
25.Ke2 d4 26.Kd2 Ke5 27.Re1+ Kd6 28.Rg1 g6 29.Rg3 Ke6 30.Rg4 Rxa4 31.Re4+ Kd6 32.Rf4 Rb4 
33.Rf7 h5 34.Rf6+ Ke5 35.Rxg6 Kf5 36.Rg7 Rxb5 37.Rxc7 Rb1 38.h4 Rf1 39.Ke2 Rc1 40.Kd2 Rf1 
41.Ke2 Rc1 42.Kd2 Rf1 1/2

Back on the 'wimpy' 4 d3 - Magnus Carlsen played this v Radjabov and it looked like Black was under pressure.

By the way anyone know what's so wrong with 4......Nd4 which may originally have been Alekhine's idea
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #18 - 04/25/07 at 20:10:44
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Alias wrote on 04/25/07 at 13:21:57:
As I see it, d3 is an excellent short cut, but I'm probably a sissy.  Roll Eyes


Certainly, but if I recall correctly, that was not what Fuster's question was about ....
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #17 - 04/25/07 at 16:27:47
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Alias wrote on 04/25/07 at 13:21:57:

Btw, real chess players play 2.f4.  Wink


I am immune from criticism on this point since I always play 1. d4 (unless you meant to endorse 2. f4 in that context).  However, I admit that I do enjoy a good quiche now and then.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #16 - 04/25/07 at 13:21:57
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How often will the Ruy Lopez player meet the Schliemann? Following the thoughts of Shereshevsky in "Soviet Chess Conveyor" one should not spend a lot of time trying to refute rare (and poor) systems but rather use good simple lines against them and spend the studying time on the main lines instead.

As I see it, d3 is an excellent short cut, but I'm probably a sissy.  Roll Eyes

Btw, real chess players play 2.f4.  Wink
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #15 - 04/25/07 at 12:36:35
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Alias wrote on 04/25/07 at 11:49:52:
For the d3-variation, there are the books by Kaufman and Greet to study and there's also a NiC yb article.

Before a recent team match we noticed that one of the players in the opposing team always used the Schliemann. A quick study of the section in the Kaufman book helped our player to get a large advantage right out of the opening. He didn't know the line before.



I can only think that Black was the worse player, or that he didn't know what he was doing.  4. d3 is for people who would rather try to nurse a borderline += into an eventual win with scant risk of complication, than book up suffiently to play 4. Nc3! and actually win.  In other words, it's for sissies.  (Oh all right, it's a simple way to pursue the point if you're the better player -- well, what unambitious system isn't?)

Ivanov and Kulagin is a most excellent and indeed essential Schliemann reference.  So by all means, try to find a copy.  However, I'm not sure if it treats 4...Nf6.

There actually are some strategic considerations in the position that arises from the theoretical main line, 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6 Qg5  8. Qe2 Nf6  9. f4"!" (9. Nxa7+!) 9...Qxf4  10. Ne5+ c6  11. d4 Qh4+  12. g3 Qh6  13. Bc4 Be6.  Black will enter the middle game with a grip on the kingside light sqares, a passed but isolated e-pawn, and his king in a somewhat rickety queenside castled position.  The position is dynamic and there is nuance in the play; notably, how to deploy each side's the rooks.  Having completed his development, Black sometimes just plays ...Kb8, ...Ka8, because there's nothing much better to do and it increases the security of his king.  Typically Black's knight goes to d5 and dares White to play c4.  Speelman famously beat Timman in this position, for the very good reason that he understood it better (Timman played c4 and d4-d5; Speelamn played c6-c5 and then blockaded).  So it's not quite true that there's no strategy in the Schliemann. 

If that were really White's best against this defense, I'd still be playing it.  Black is no worse there than he is in the other lines of the Spanish, or not much worse, anyway.  But unfortunately, as I have said elsewhere on this board, I have never found anything against 9. Nxa7+! Bd7  10. f4!.  It seems that Black's best is 10...Qc5  11. Nb5 Qxc7  12. d4! Bb4+  13. Kf2 Qxe2+  14. Kxe2, after which Black's pawn-down ending looks quite dreary.  Ivanov and Kulagin say +=, but I think that's optimistic.  Maybe +=, if you have Capablanca's endgame technique, but to defend such endgames is not why I play 1...e5.  If anybody has an antidote to 9. Nxa7+! I'd like to know about it.  It is amazing how 9. Nxa7+! gets ignored in modern theory books.  Offbeat Spanish, for a very notable example.

My impression is that White played imprecisely at the Melody Amber.  After 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 Nf6  6. Nxf6+! Qxf6  7. Qe2 Be7  8. Bxc6 dxc6  9. Nxe5 Bf5  10. 0-0! (I hope I remembered that correctly!), White is supposed to meet 10...0-0-0 with 11. d3 and 10...0-0 with 11. d4.  Instead if I recall correctly, at the Melody Amber, 10...0-0  11. d3 was played.  I don't have the score; am I wrong?  In any case, I hardly think that it is a ringing endorsement of the Schliemann that it was used to win a blindfold game.  Also it is perhaps notable that 4...Nf6 was not chosen.

Before people became aware of 10. 0-0!, the old theory was 10. d3 0-0! =, 10. d4 0-0-0! =.  But with 10. 0-0!, White waits to see where Black castles, then plays the d-pawn accordingly.  This works because Black has no way to temporize, and because 10...Bxc2 is disastrous for him.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #14 - 04/25/07 at 11:49:52
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For the d3-variation, there are the books by Kaufman and Greet to study and there's also a NiC yb article. (The article is in yb #73. The title, taken from a Kaufman quote, is "Sending the Schliemann to the Museum".)

Before a recent team match we noticed that one of the players in the opposing team always used the Schliemann. A quick study of the section in the Kaufman book helped our player to get a large advantage right out of the opening. He didn't know the line before.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #13 - 04/25/07 at 09:45:13
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FusterCluck wrote on 04/25/07 at 03:27:05:
Paddy,

thanks for the recommendations.  i found and ordered "winning with the schliemann" as well as Flear's "Offbeat Spanish", which appears to have 40 or so pages on the Schliemann.  unfortunately i couldn't find a copy of the ivanov work.   do the schwarz and adams books have particularly good strategical explanations on 4...Nf6?  if not, i suppose i'll be happy with the more recent books.


The Rolf Schwarz and Jimmy Adams books were good sources of Schliemann games when these were hard to find, in the pre-database era. As I think MNb has already pointed out, these days we would call the Jimmy Adams book a database dump.

I forgot to mention Opening for White According to Anand Vol. 1 as modern source of info.

Strategy? What strategy? It is mostly basic 19th century stuff: try to control the centre, use the f-file, activate the pieces and attack the white king. It's an opening to play, rather than to study. The more you study it, the more refutations you will find. Be happy with an active position, often a pawn down, but with practical compensation. And be prepared to learn something more main-stream once over 2000 FIDE if you are ambitious. Meanwhile, have fun with the Schliemann.

Incidentally, the related line 3 Bb5 Bc5 4 c3 f5 is also worth considering - dubious therefore playable, as the great Tartakower used to say.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #12 - 04/25/07 at 07:49:24
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I know it's slightlyoff topic but I  would point out at the Melody Amber Radjabov played 4 ...fe and Nf6 v Kramnik and Leko and held easily even though it's not really much of winning attempt. In fact Kram had to struggle for a draw !

I am beginning to think 4 d3 is the best move !



  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #11 - 04/25/07 at 03:27:05
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Paddy,

thanks for the recommendations.  i found and ordered "winning with the schliemann" as well as Flear's "Offbeat Spanish", which appears to have 40 or so pages on the Schliemann.  unfortunately i couldn't find a copy of the ivanov work.   do the schwarz and adams books have particularly good strategical explanations on 4...Nf6?  if not, i suppose i'll be happy with the more recent books.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #10 - 04/25/07 at 02:24:03
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I remember that Larry D. Evans (an American IM, by the way) article.  It basically regarded the ...Nf6 Schliemann as unsound (in fact, I think the article was titled "Play Something Unsound"), but as offering various practical chances against an unprepared opponent.  He spoke of the First Bulgarian Variation and the Second Bulgarian Variation ("anyone who can remember this much Schliemann theory must have lived in Bulgaria").  At the end of the main line (where White has avoided all the pitfalls), Evans wrote something like, "Even now, after all he has been through, it is doubtful that White will have the energy to convert his extra pawn.  If you happen to encounter such an opponent, I can only suggest that if you face him again, play the Caro-Kann."
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #9 - 04/25/07 at 00:33:31
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FusterCluck wrote on 04/24/07 at 17:35:31:
Paddy wrote on 04/24/07 at 10:30:56:

I wonder whether the club/weekend players of today (plus internet players now I suppose) are really any better prepared than when Barden was writing (1980).

Be warned though that there is actually a lot of theory on this line


I'm really beginning to like the 5...Bc5 gambit ideas.  How much analsys of this line is in Barden's book?  Or could you recommend other sources?


Barden gives not much more than I've already quoted (though the book itself is well worth getting hold of second-hand, since it has much of interest and instruction for club and weekend players, e.g. on the Von Hennig-Schara Gambit, the Vienna Gambit and the Grand Prix Attack). Barden refers to an earlier article on 4...Nf6 by Larry D Evans in Chess Life and Review - perhaps one of our US-based readers can track it down.

The best Schliemann book sources in my experience are:
Spanisch II by Schwarz (1970)
Schliemann/Jaenisch Gambit by Jimmy Adams (1982)
Winning with the Schliemann by Tseitlin (1991)
Play the Schliemann Defence! by Ivanov & Kulagin (1994)

More recent Lopez books by Flear, Emms and Greet should also be checked out of course.

If Schliemann expert Jonathan Tait reads this, he will no doubt be able to recommend other sources.

Of course, most analysis of the Schliemann was done in the "pre-fritz" era, and careful computer-assisted research will probably yield a lot of fresh resources for both sides, but more for White than for Black, I fear. Markovich is almost certainly correct - the Schliemann is not fully sound theoretically, but below a certain level that does not matter; after 4...Nf6 especially, a good attacking player will be far more comfortable with the Black pieces than an unprepared Lopez player will be with White.





  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #8 - 04/24/07 at 21:07:02
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FusterCluck wrote on 04/24/07 at 19:26:07:
Markovich wrote on 04/24/07 at 18:56:24:
This generalization and some of the other ones in your original post strike me as highly artificial.  4...fxe4! is an excellent move with a very obvious motivation; it just happens that due to specific factors, it doesn't work...


You state yourself that fxe4 doesn't work.  How can a move that doesn't work be excellent?   


By being the best move in the position.  Maybe I'm wrong about this given MnB's and Paddy's ideas here, but I'll maintain my view a little longer.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #7 - 04/24/07 at 21:03:03
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I strongly disagree with Markovich, that 4.Nc3 Nf6! 5.exf5! Bc5 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nxe5 Nd4 8.Nf3! Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 is inferior to 4.Nc3 fxe4?! 6.Nxe5 d5 / 9.Nxa7 from Black's point of view. I find the latter horrible. Black only can hope to draw after hours hard work. But I will not state, that the first offers equality, not at all. It is more like "a complex game, in which White is objectively better, but has to play with caution". Like Paddy writes, Black plays natural moves (Nf6, Bc5, 0-0, Nd4 in answer to the pseudo-sac Nxe5, Nxb5, d5, Ng4). White already here has many opportunities to stumble. Then, if even with best play, White's advantage is indisputable but managable, I find that quite an achievement for a Counter Gambit like this.

10...Qd6 iso 10...Ng4 has been played in a game Vasjukov-Egorov, Moscow 1959. There followed 10...Qd6 11.d3 Ng4 12.h3 Nh2 13.Nb5! Nxf3+ 14.Qxf3 Qd7 15.g4! Bxf2+ 16.Rxf2 Qxb5 17.Bf4 Bd7 18.c3 and White was on top. As a light improvement for Black I have found 11...Qd6 12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.fxe6 Qxe6 14.d4 Be6, but in the end I decided, that I liked the immediate 10...Ng4 better. White again has the opportunity to spoil his advantage:
a)11.d3? Nxh2
b)11.Ne6 Bxe6 12.fxe6 Qd6 13.g3 Nxf2! Perenyi-Tatai, Budapest 1979.
c)11.Qe2 Bxd4 (Nxh2) 12.Nxd4 Nxh2 Korbut-Kuzmina, Elista 2001.
d)So White is wise to play 11.h3 Ne5 at once. Then both 12.Nxe5 Smailbegovic-Maric, Sombor 1957 and 12.Re1 seem to preserve an edge, that is somewhat bigger than Markovich' favourite initial birthright.
It is quite a challenge, to optimize Black's compensation here. So FusterCluck, give your best try!

Paddy is also right, that the line 4...Nf6 transposes to the Bulgarian Variation 4...Nd4. The move order then is 5.Ba4 Nf6 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Nxe5 0-0 8.exf5 d5. White has 5.exf5 Nf6 6.0-0 though, which I failed to make work for Black.
My source: the booklet Schliemann/Jaenisch by Jimmy Adams from 1982. We would call this a database dump today, hence I gave the year of publication. As Adams also has figured out all kind of transpositions, I find it quite useful.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #6 - 04/24/07 at 19:26:07
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Markovich wrote on 04/24/07 at 18:56:24:
This generalization and some of the other ones in your original post strike me as highly artificial.  4...fxe4! is an excellent move with a very obvious motivation; it just happens that due to specific factors, it doesn't work...


I don't claim to have the understanding to make the case against fxe4.  If you have a good understanding of the reason behind fxe4, why noth enlighten rather than criticize.   

You state yourself that fxe4 doesn't work.  How can a move that doesn't work be excellent?  Is the primary justification behind fxe the hope than black will gain a dominant center, open lines, or something else that i'm totally missing?
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #5 - 04/24/07 at 18:56:24
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FusterCluck wrote on 04/24/07 at 17:35:31:


So, is my impression correct that fxe really doesnt accomplish much unless black can use the open file to attack (such as in the d3 lines)?


I've played the Schliemann in many games, though I don't play it any more.  This generalization and some of the other ones in your original post strike me as highly artificial.  4...fxe4! is an excellent move with a very obvious motivation; it just happens that due to specific factors, it doesn't work (it works with 5...d5, I suppose, if you don't mind playing into a pawn-down ending where you have drawing chances after 9. Nxa7+! instead of 9. f4 "!" as given in almost all sources).  Black's degree of disadvantage after 5...Nf6 is about the same.   

But it's the same with >all< forms of the Schliemann after 4. Nc3!.  They are all well-motivated and challenging, and none of them quite work.  4...Nf6  5. exf4! is even worse for Black.  I have never studied 4...Nd4 but it smells so bad that I would be quite surprised if it worked either.

On the other hand, there is a good case for this defense at the club level.  So play it by all means, but don't try to convince yourself that it's sound. That way lies Gambit Psychosis.

Also, although 4...fxe4 is considered the best answer to 4. d3, Black has little prospect of an f-file attack if White plays well.  The threat of that, however, does at least allow 4...fxe4  5. dxe4 Nf6  6. 0-0 Bc5!, a gambit that White is wise to decline.  It would be dreadful to have to play 6...d6.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #4 - 04/24/07 at 17:35:31
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Paddy wrote on 04/24/07 at 10:30:56:

I wonder whether the club/weekend players of today (plus internet players now I suppose) are really any better prepared than when Barden was writing (1980).

Be warned though that there is actually a lot of theory on this line


I suspect probably not, since the Schiemann defense has been declining in popularity.  I'm really beginning to like the 5...Bc5 gambit ideas.  How much analsys of this line is in Barden's book?  Or could you recommend other sources?


MNB, the line from your game with 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 looks really good to me.  Perhaps 10... Qd6 is an improvement.  After something like 11.Re1 Ng4 12.h3, i believe the sack Nxf2 is fascinating!


So, is my impression correct that fxe really doesnt accomplish much unless black can use the open file to attack (such as in the d3 lines)?
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #3 - 04/24/07 at 10:30:56
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[quote author=FusterCluck link=1177230554/0#0 date=1177230552]I'm beginning to believe this less common version of the Schliemann Defense may be black's best try.

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!?

This was recommended in Barden's book "Play better chess" as a useful weapon for club/weekend players. He said that many low-rated players were taken by surprise by this and reacted badly, e.g. 5 0-0? fxe4 6 Bxc6 dxc6 7 Nxe5 Qd4, or 5 Nc3 fxe4 6 dxe4 Bb4 when White has been move-ordered into a weak version of the 4 d3 line. Barden's suggested best play for both sides was 5 exf5! Bc5 6 0-0 0-0 7 Nxe5 Nd4! 8 Nf3! (he noted that the weaker 8 Ba4 was a common reaction if White ever got this far).

I wonder whether the club/weekend players of today (plus internet players now I suppose) are really any better prepared than when Barden was writing (1980).

Be warned though that there is actually a lot of theory on this line (which often transposes to the Bulgarian variation 4 Nc3 Nd4!?) and with best play White should surely keep an edge, e.g. Barden gave 5 exf5! Bc5 6 0-0 0-0 7 Nxe5 Nd4! 8 Nf3! c6 9 Nxd4 Bxd4 10 Ba4 d5 11 Ne2 Bb6 12 d4 Bxf5 13 Bxf4 when Black has little to show for his pawn - Unzicker-Nievergelt, Zurich 1959, amusingly quoted as Uhlmann-Nievergelt in Schiller's careless 1983 book for Batsford.
  
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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #2 - 04/22/07 at 20:56:02
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4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 (I never have trusted ...Nf6) would be good, if Black could maintain the centre and finish development. He can't.
I don't like 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 e4 either, as Black's centre is not flexible anymore. After 6.Ng5 d5 7.d3 I prefer White.
Black can play in true KG-style though: 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.o-o o-o 7.Nxe5 Nd4. Compare 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nd5 Nxe4 8.d4 Nf6 like Spielmann-Bogoljubow, Triberg 1921. Still an extra tempo is an extra tempo, so the Ruy Lopeze version does not guarantee full compensation.
After 7.Nxe5 Nd4 White is ill-advised to play 8.Ba4 d5 eg 9.Ne2 Qd6 10.Nxd4 Bxd4 11.Nf3 Ng4! with an almost winning attack, Marjanovic-Parma, JUG 1979.
A few years ago I have tried this in a friendly corr game: 8.Bd3 d5 9.Nf3 Nxf5 10.Bxf5 Bxf5 11.d4 Bd6 with some compensation, Peeters-MNb, corr 2002.
White's best is probably 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3. Still this looks relatively better for Black than the 4...fxe4 variations. Anyhow, this is a good choice if you want to catch a train.
  

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Re: Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
Reply #1 - 04/22/07 at 10:53:06
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Khalifmann's OfWatA Vol. 1 has 5. ef Nd4 as his mainline and says "The move 5. ...e4 is often played but with no particular success" and gives 6. Nh4 as the continuation.

He concludes "In general we can conclude that ... theory hardly lets Black hope for good play ... if he does not venture into 4. ...fxe4. He could count on the effect of surprise and insufficient preperation ... after having read this chapter you are well armoured against such surprise" [sic]

From a practical perspective, I'm quite happy for Black to take me out of my opening knowlege when I'm a pawn up and not behind in developent or unable to castle  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Schliemann Defense to Ruy Lopez - 4...Nf6
04/22/07 at 08:29:12
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I'm beginning to believe this less common version of the Schliemann Defense may be black's best try.

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!?

The normal move is 4...fxe and then after Nxe4 either 5...Nf6 or 5...d5.  I would really like to understand the motivation behind 4...fxe.   Black first offered a gambit and then after white is hesitant to accept it, why doesn't he offer it again with 4...Nf6!?  It appears to me that fxe fails to accomplish 3 possible goals of the gambit:  Deflection, Developement and Opening Lines.

Deflection:
In T.D. harding's book on counter gambits (open games section) he writes:  "f5 is primarily a deflecting move, seeking to obtain a strong pawn centre at the cost of weakening the king's position".  By playing 4...fxe black voluntarilly gives up on the idea of deflecting the e4 pawn from the center.

Development:
In Schiller's book on gambits he comments that a wing pawn gambit is often played in hopes of gaining a lead in developement.  In an ideal world, white would play exf5 and at some point black gets to play Bxf5.  The net result would be a gain of 1 tempo and development because white made two pawn moves to black's one.  Instead, 4...fxe4 encourages 5.Nxe4, which only helps move white's army forward.  Although the jury is still out, most people agree that black's tactical try 5...d5 is close to refuted and hence does not justify fxe4.

Opening Lines:
Of course black would love to use the open f file to attack white's king after he castles kingside.  4...fxe4 does open up this file for black, but it seems premature.  Black cannot use this half open file untill after he moves his king's knight and bishop and then plays O-O.  fxe4 is effectively opening lines for white, who is up a tempo and can use the e file to presure black in the variant 4...fxe Nxe4 5...Nf6.   4...Nf6 gets black one move closer to O-O so that he might be able to use that open file!


So why not play 4...Nf6 and offer the gambit pawn again?  From a practical perspective it may be a better move since it doesn't appear in the opening theory that your booked-up Ruy Lopez opponents love so much.  From an objective viewpoint, if it cannot be refuted, it is certainly no worse than 4...fxe.


Some example lines to consider:

Deflection: 

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!? 5.exf5 e4 6.Ng5 d5 7.O-O Bxf5
White accepts the gambit giving black a big center.  Can black get castled quickly enough to survive white's attempts to undermine it?

Opening Lines / Development:

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!? 5.Bxc6 dxc 6.Nxe5 Bc5 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O fxe!
Now black can hope to use that half open file.  Does he have enough pressure to compensate for being down a pawn?


  
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