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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond? (Read 10290 times)
madhacker
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #20 - 07/03/07 at 15:38:46
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I haven't looked at it all that closely, but in my experience 17...Rfc8! is fine for Black. Basically, White can reasonably challenge for the d-file after 17. Be2, so doubling on the c-file has worked well; if Black doesn't want to exchange rooks then there's not a lot White can do to force it, and the rooks are fairly active on the c-file. If White is careless and plays Qc1 and Rd1 then there are ideas in the air of ...Bxa2+! and ...Rxc2, though in such positions Black has to time it right so that an inconvenient Rd8+ doesn't spoil things.
  
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Bernhard
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #19 - 07/01/07 at 17:08:00
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According to Dearing Rowson recommends 17. Be2 after

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1!? Nxd4 11. e5 Nf5 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6

In Informator 97 there are some games (albeit by relative weak players) which look quite good for White.
Does anyone know how to deal with 17. Be2?

11... Nf3 seems to remain unpopular, although the analysis given by Dearing inclines that Black is doing ok. What is wrong with 11... Nf3?
  
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rooksway18
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #18 - 06/29/07 at 16:23:35
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.


and now I might try 10...e5 11.Nc6 bc 12.ed cd 13.Nd5 Be6 14.Nf6+ Qf6 15.Bg5 Qf5 16.g4 Qf3 17.Bg2 Qg4 18.Ba8 Ra8 19.Qd8+ Rd8 20.Rd8+ Bf8 21.Bh6 Qb4 22.Rf8+ Qf8 23.Bf8 Kf8 24.Re1 f6 later 0-1, 06', R. Becerra-V.Mikhalevski. White seems better at first glance after move 24, but perhaps black has some chances.

  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #17 - 06/02/07 at 16:15:32
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About exf6 and Ne3 line what is blacks best move after something like

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1 Nxd4 11. e5 Nf5 12.
exf6 exf6 13. Bc5 d4 14. Bxf8 Qxf8 15. Nb5 Ne3 16. Rc1 f5 17. Nxd4 f4 18. g3
Qd6 (18... Qc5 19. Nb3 Qb6 20. gxf4 Bf5 {is perhaps better and was played by Dahlström when he was black agiasnt Bernett in an email game?}) 19. c3 {
first Fritz thinks that Bxd4 is equal but analysing longer it prefers white.}

  
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Scholar
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #16 - 05/28/07 at 05:55:59
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This is a very interesting discussion!  I've always had confidence in the queen sac line, and I agree that the line given by madhacker is the correct idea.  Generally, material inbalances offer good winning chances for the better player, and I do not think this is an exception.

The line with 12...exf6 has been trendy recently, and I think there was a post by Eric Moskow at some point with a game in the line.  Unfortunately, I wasn't really paying attention to this option at the time, but I mention it in case someone can track it down.

Regarding FightingDragon and others: after 12...exf6 13.Bc5 d4 14.Bxf8 Qxf8 15.Nb5 Ne3 I am curious what is thought about 16.Re1 f5 17.Nxd4 f4 18.Rxe3.  This obviously isn't White's most ambitious move, but since 12...exf6 is offered as a way for Black to spice things up, this seemed like a natural continuation.

If White just plays as in 18...fxe3 19.Qxe3 Bd7 20.Bd3 intending c3, I don't believe that Black can do better than recover his pawn with an eventual Bxd4.  Is there another way?
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #15 - 05/27/07 at 13:23:45
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@SwissDragon: maybe you're right, even if black's position is defendable, it is certainly no easy and enjoyable task, especially against a strong player.

@bragesjo: In your variations I think 11.h4 e5 12.Nc6: bc6: 13.ed5: cd5: 14.Nd5: Nd5: 15.Qd5: Qf6 16.Bg5! is a clear improvement over 16.Be2?!, e.g. 16. ... Qb6 17.b3 and black doesnÄt have enough for the pawn.

That leaves 12. ... ef6:, where I didn't find a white advantage after 15. ... Ne3!
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #14 - 05/26/07 at 15:14:12
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How about discussing Rb8? About the exf6 line Bd3 seems strong if white returns the exchange.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1 Rb8 11. Be2 (11.
Ndb5 a6 12. Na7 e6 13. exd5 Nxd5 14. Nxd5 exd5 15. Nxc8 Rxc8 16. Qxd5 Qxd5 17.
Rxd5 Nb4 18. Rc5 Rce8 19. Bd2 Rd8 {is at least equal}) (11. h4 e5 12. Nxc6 bxc6
13. exd5 cxd5 14. Nxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 Qf6 16. Be2 Bf5 17. g4 Rfd8 18. g5 {
played by Fritz 10 agianst me in a  10+9 blitz game} (18. Qa5 Bxc2+ 19. Kxc2
Rxb2+ 20. Kc1 Rdb8 21. g5 Qc6+ 22. Bc5 R2b5 23. Rd8+ Bf8 24. Rxf8+ Kg7 25. Bxb5
Qxc5+ 26. Kd2 Rxb5 27. Rg8+ Kxg8 28. Qd8+ Kg7 29. Qf6+ Kg8 30. Qd8+ Qf8 31.
Qxf8+ Kxf8 {and black is better}) 18... Qe7 19. Qc5 Qxc5 20. Rxd8+ Rxd8 21.
Bxc5 Rc8 22. b4 Bf8 {and the position is drawish}) (11. Bb5 e5 {
was in a subscriber game and black won}) (11. Qf2 e5 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13. Bc5 {
and black is better} Be6) (11. Nb3 dxe4 12. Qxd8 Rxd8 13. Rxd8+ Nxd8 14. Bxa7
Ra8 15. Bb6 Bf5 16. Be2 Nc6 17. Rd1 exf3 18. gxf3 Nd7 {is equal}) (11. Qe1 e5
12. Nxc6 bxc6 {is good for black}) 11... e5 12. Nxc6 bxc6 13. exd5 cxd5 14.
Nxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 Qf6 16. g4 {critical line} (16. h4 Bf5 {transposes to 11 h4}
) 16... Re8 {Fritz suggested move} (16... Be6 17. g5 Qe7 18. Qd6 Qb7) 17. h4 (
17. g5 Qe7 18. Qc5 Qb7 19. b3 Bf5 {is equal}) 17... Be6 18. g5 Qe7 19. Qd6 Qb7
{black has compensation} 20. b3 Bf5 *

  
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Swiss_Dragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #13 - 05/25/07 at 07:51:04
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Well right, 22...Bh4 was a bit of a strange move. I didn't know that 22.g4 had already been played and so running into my opponent's preparation I wanted to play something surprising, too. Smiley It didn't turn out so badly, as I think the game was drawish until move 53(!), when I took a poisend pawn beeing already far way behind on the clock. So 22...e6 may be more natural, but still I would clearly prefer White here. The game Krohalev-Berriot stops after move 26, when I would really be interested, what Black plays after the move 27.Re1!? threatening hxg6 hxg6 Rxe5 Rxe5 Qh8+, e.g. 27..Bg7 28.h6 and there are always problems on the back rank. You see, there are some traps in the position and it's not so funny to defend against them for a long time. It is certainly a different thing in correspondence chess, when your friends Rybka and Fritz can warn you.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #12 - 05/23/07 at 19:14:45
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I think I agree with madhacker that white doesn't have anything after 17. ... a6, 18. ... Rfd8! and 19. ... Rd4!, but it is also impossible to win this as black.
@SwissDragon: search the position after 22.g4 in the Chessbase Online database. There were two correspondence games where black sat still with 22. ... e6 and made 1,5/2, perhaps your 22. ... Bh4 was a bit of a panic reaction?

So if the queen sacrifice-line holds up, black can play this if a draw is sufficient and 12. ... ef6: for a win.
Smiley
  
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madhacker
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #11 - 05/23/07 at 15:04:41
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After the queen-sac, there's no serious problem after 17. Bb5 a6 18. Ba4 Rfd8 19. Qe2 Rd4 is there? OK, so it's tough to generate winning chances, but I think that as long as he has total control of the d-file it's hard to see either side making progress. Obviously it's not that ambitious, but if White is happy to play those lines then I think you have to be content.

Adam
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #10 - 05/23/07 at 11:00:57
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Sorry, about the missing move it is Qf2 that Martin annotes with a ! (and the move that Fritz 10 played aginst me in a 4+2 blitz when I set up the position of exf6) when he thinks that after Qc5 then c3 is strong and therefore I proposes Qb4 when the position is equal since after a3 Qc5 whites kings position has been weakened.

About Bd3 I have not looked at his move yet. Maybee the Dragon is finally refuted or Rb8 is only move after all.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #9 - 05/23/07 at 04:57:45
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@bragesjo: It seems in your variation white's 16th move is missing.

It seems that 10.Kb1 is the toughest challenge to the dragon right now.
Meanwhile I also took a look at 12. ... ef6:
After 13.Bc5 d4 14.Bf8: Qf8: 15.Nb5 Be6 16.Bd3 Ne3 17.Nd4:!? Nd1: 18.Ne6: fe6: 19.Rd1:
it seems that black's position is quite unpleasant to play because white has active pieces and can attack e6, and the opposite coloured bishops favor the attacker.
Perhaps 15. ... Ne3 16.Re1 f5 17.Nd4: f4 is stronger, although it really looks strange and Dearing doesn't like it.
  
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #8 - 05/18/07 at 14:27:52
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Having examined the position which I suggested earlier more carefully, I realised that it is in fact better for white if he pushes his kingside pawns and creates threats with the queen, as swiss_dragon suggests. Therefore something needs to be found in this line for black. Meanwhile I will take a look at exf6!?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #7 - 05/18/07 at 12:47:51
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About Rb8 I would play something like

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5.
Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Kb1 Rb8 11. h4 e5 12.
Nxc6 bxc6 13. exd5 cxd5 14. Nxd5 Nxd5 15. Qxd5 Qf6 16. Be2 Bf5 17. g4 Rfd8 *

But I am getting more exited about the exf6 line. I thought that it was as crap line but is seems to give black good chanses.



  
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Swiss_Dragon
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Re: 9.0-0-0 d5 10.Kb1!? How should Black respond?
Reply #6 - 05/18/07 at 12:18:46
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Goldaxe's line seems the best black has, but there is some play left on the kingsside where Black has to be very careful, e.g. 25.g4!? (Rd1 looks like a loss of a tempo to me, although this may actually not make a big difference) Ra2 26.Rb1 and let's say 26..e6 27.f4 h6 (allowing g5 creates problems on the back rank) 28.f5!? At one point Black might play Rxb2 Rxb2 Ra3 Kxb4 Bb2 and hope to create some fortress while giving up the bishop for the c-pawn, but I don't see an easy fortress as long as the h-pawns are still on the board. I think, Black has really very limited play and any mistake may be fatal, while I'm not sure whether the position is a draw at all. Who likes to play such a position?  Sad

For 10..Rb8 I was worried about 11.h4 h5 12.Be2, but maybe Black is OK after 12..e5 13.Nxc6 bxc6 14.exd5 cxd5 15.Nxd5 Be6 16.Nxf6+ Qxf6 or 16.Bc4 Nxd5 17.Bxd5 Bxd5 18.Qxd5 Qc7. Is this what you would suggest, bragesjo?

Ok, 12..exf6 seems worth a try, too.
  
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