Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) transpose french exchange to center counter? (Read 25757 times)
Willempie
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #18 - 05/10/07 at 16:11:36
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 05/10/07 at 14:32:51:
When you say ages, how many ages? I must look up and try to see where it comes from. There weren't any famous Scandinavian chessplayers in the 19th century, were there? Or were there? When was Svenonius, for example?

Anyway, we're speaking English, aren't we?!

It is curious how English has adopted the 'foreign' names Guioco P and Ruy L when the foreigners themselves actually call the openings something different.

Well I read somewhere that Schlechter had commented it should be named nordic or scandinavian defense due to the northern masters playing it so much. Iirc Enlgund and Collijn played it and if memory serves they were both Swedish.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #17 - 05/10/07 at 14:32:51
Post Tools
When you say ages, how many ages? I must look up and try to see where it comes from. There weren't any famous Scandinavian chessplayers in the 19th century, were there? Or were there? When was Svenonius, for example?

Anyway, we're speaking English, aren't we?!

It is curious how English has adopted the 'foreign' names Guioco P and Ruy L when the foreigners themselves actually call the openings something different.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #16 - 05/10/07 at 13:46:57
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 05/10/07 at 12:32:23:
I'm guessing it means that he calls it the Centre Counter and not the Scandinavian.

When did this fad for calling it the Scandinavian come in, by the way? The opening was already being called the Centre Counter in 1880; surely Scandinavian chess had hardly started to enter the mainstream consciousness by then, had it?

You anglocentric, you Grin
It's called that in German, Dutch and prolly French for ages. Center counter doesnt make much sense in dutch for example. Same with the Ruy, which we call Spanish. The Noteboom which you call Abrahams Wink and Italian which for a reason I am unable to fathom is called Giuoco Piano in Englishspeak.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
woofwoof
God Member
*****
Offline


chess is like life

Posts: 929
Location: Singapore
Joined: 07/04/05
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #15 - 05/10/07 at 12:41:26
Post Tools
Ive always known this opening as the centre counter. Scandinavian = centre counter was something i recently learnt while browsing thro this forum. The same with Traxler = Wilkes-Barre in the 2 kts. Must all the old established names be replaced with more modern ones?? Roll Eyes
  

"I don't make mistakes. I make prophecies which immediately turn out to be wrong." - Murray Walker
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #14 - 05/10/07 at 12:32:23
Post Tools
I'm guessing it means that he calls it the Centre Counter and not the Scandinavian.

When did this fad for calling it the Scandinavian come in, by the way? The opening was already being called the Centre Counter in 1880; surely Scandinavian chess had hardly started to enter the mainstream consciousness by then, had it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marno
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
... who wouldn't?!

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/21/06
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #13 - 05/10/07 at 12:23:45
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/08/07 at 21:05:57:
Marno wrote on 05/07/07 at 22:24:06:
I am experimenting as Black with 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 esd5 Qxd5?! transposing to the Center-Counter.  The disadvantage from the regular CC is that the light-colored bishop is blocked in, but so far at least the surprise value has led to playable positions for me.

Anyone else trying this or have observations, comments?


It's a lousy idea.  Your c8 bishop is blocked in.  Better just to play the Center Counter straightaway (I'm old fashioned) and not have this problem.



Yes, I have already agreed with your point.  Does your comment mean that you play the CC or the French?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FirebrandX
Junior Member
**
Offline


What would Houdini do?

Posts: 83
Location: North of Dallas, Texas, USA
Joined: 05/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #12 - 05/09/07 at 08:54:00
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/08/07 at 21:05:57:
I remember a Center Counter devotee explaining that ...Qxd5, Nc3 does not lose a tempo.  Fair enough, assuming that ...Qd8 isn't played.  But it loses on the order of half a tempo, if you bear in mind that c3 is definitely a good square for White's knight, while any square Black chooses for his queen, besides d8, exposes her to some trouble.


Not exactly true imo. Qxd5 is to invite Nc3, where the the blocking in of the c-pawn makes supporting the d-pawn have to be done with pieces (or play passively with d3 which does nothing to black). Also, as in the Qd6, white has tried pressuring the queen with piece-supported moves like Bf4, but so far there's been no refutation. Really the cool thing about the scandinavian (Qxd5 versions) is how black can force the game into piece-play instead of pawn-play, where white feels like he/she should have some sort of reward for playing Nc3, but is psyched out when nothing becomes of it.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4598
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #11 - 05/09/07 at 00:09:19
Post Tools
This discussion reminds me of this rather entertaining game I noticed a while back.  White (despite the opposite-side castling) survives to an evenish ending, but then manages to lose (vaguely reminiscent of M. Gurevich-Short 1990, a case of a strong GM playing 3. ed and getting ground down).  For a French player looking for a current model, I would suggest Berg (at least if you're interested in the lines he favors, like the Winawer and the 3...Nf6 Tarrasch).


[Event "Stockholm Rilton cup"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Ong, Kezli"]
[Black "Berg, Emanuel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2325"]
[BlackElo "2529"]
[NIC "FR 1.4.7"]
[ECO "C01"]
[PlyCount "122"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 Bd6 5. Bd3 Nc6 6. c3 Nge7 7. O-O Bg4 8. Re1
Qd7 9. Nbd2 O-O-O 10. b4 Ng6 11. Nb3 Rde8 12. Be3 Nh4 13. Be2 Nf5 14. Bd2 Rxe2 15.
Qxe2 Nh4 16. b5 Nb4 17. Ne5 Bxe2 18. Nxd7 Nc2 19. Rxe2 Nxa1 20. Ndc5 Nxb3 21. axb3
Nf5 22. h3 b6 23. Nd3 Kd7 24. Ne5  Bxe5 25. Rxe5 Ne7 26. Kf1 a6 27. bxa6 Ra8 28.
c4 dxc4 29. bxc4 Rxa6 30. Ke2 f6 31. Rh5 h6 32. Kd3 Ra3  33. Bc3 Ra2 34. Bd2 Ra3 
35. Bc3 Ra2 36. Bd2 c6 37. g4 Ra3  38. Ke4 Ra4 39. Kd3 Ra3  40. Ke4 Ra4 41. Kd3 Ke6
42. h4 Ra3  43. Ke4 Rb3 44. Bf4 Kf7 45. d5 cxd5  46. cxd5 f5  47. gxf5 Ng8 48. Be5
Nf6  49. Bxf6 Kxf6 50. d6 Rb2 51. f4 Rd2 52. Rg5 hxg5 53. fxg5  Kf7 54. Ke5 Re2 
55. Kf4 b5 56. h5 b4 57. h6 gxh6 58. gxh6 Re8 59. Kg5 b3 60. h7 b2 61. d7 Rd8 0-1


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #10 - 05/09/07 at 00:08:00
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/08/07 at 16:17:51:
TalJechin wrote on 05/08/07 at 09:08:23:
Iirc this is dealt with in one of the SOS books, think it was called the 'Katalymov variation' or something similar...


I believe you're thinking of 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2/c3 de 4. Nxe4 Qd5.  Which of course might transpose after 5. Nc3 Bb4, but after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. de Qxd5 White can do better by holding off on Nc3, one might think.


Yeah, that's the one. In practice there'd probably be a good chance of transposing but 4.Nf3 or 4.c4 does look like an edge, as compared to 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 de 3.Nxe4 Qd5 black doesn't have Bf5 anymore.

Still, I suppose black's 'draw at best' after Bf4 in the exchange may have caused even some of the strong guys to consider Qxd5 in the exchange. Zhang Zhong tried it a couple of years ago and a couple of weeks ago there was the game Vitiugov,N (2592) - Meier,G (2506) [C01]8th ch-Euro T/B Qualification Dresden GER (1.2), 15.04.2007. Though not playing the french if white wants a draw would certainly be a better solution than 3...Qxd5, at least against equal or better whites...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #9 - 05/08/07 at 21:05:57
Post Tools
Marno wrote on 05/07/07 at 22:24:06:
I am experimenting as Black with 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 esd5 Qxd5?! transposing to the Center-Counter.  The disadvantage from the regular CC is that the light-colored bishop is blocked in, but so far at least the surprise value has led to playable positions for me.

Anyone else trying this or have observations, comments?


It's a lousy idea.  Your c8 bishop is blocked in.  Better just to play the Center Counter straightaway (I'm old fashioned) and not have this problem.

I remember a Center Counter devotee explaining that ...Qxd5, Nc3 does not lose a tempo.  Fair enough, assuming that ...Qd8 isn't played.  But it loses on the order of half a tempo, if you bear in mind that c3 is definitely a good square for White's knight, while any square Black chooses for his queen, besides d8, exposes her to some trouble. 

So, I'm dogmatic.  Just call me Siegbert.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #8 - 05/08/07 at 20:55:28
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 05/08/07 at 11:31:14:
Just play 3...exd5 already. Castle queenside and mate the dude on the kingside. Works every time.


Yeah, and if he castles queenside, mate him over there. 

But seriously, I take your point.  I assume from this that the players who play this against you are the weaker ones, and groveling for a draw.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4598
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #7 - 05/08/07 at 16:17:51
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 05/08/07 at 09:08:23:
Iirc this is dealt with in one of the SOS books, think it was called the 'Katalymov variation' or something similar...


I believe you're thinking of 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2/c3 de 4. Nxe4 Qd5.  Which of course might transpose after 5. Nc3 Bb4, but after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. de Qxd5 White can do better by holding off on Nc3, one might think.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marno
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
... who wouldn't?!

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/21/06
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #6 - 05/08/07 at 11:55:36
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 05/08/07 at 02:13:08:
Yeah, but perhaps you should play the Center Counter, if you're prepared to play an inferior version of it in order to avoid equalizing with Black in three moves.

( ...would be one of the snarky ways of expressing my view)


Yes; snarkiness aside I'm sure you are right. It is an inferior version of an already slightly inferior defense.  I will just sigh  Undecided and keep with the orthodox ...exd.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #5 - 05/08/07 at 11:31:14
Post Tools
Just play 3...exd5 already. Castle queenside and mate the dude on the kingside. Works every time.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #4 - 05/08/07 at 09:08:23
Post Tools
Iirc this is dealt with in one of the SOS books, think it was called the 'Katalymov variation' or something similar...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo