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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) transpose french exchange to center counter? (Read 25548 times)
MNb
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #33 - 05/15/07 at 01:11:53
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Certainly GM Robert Byrne was not an obscure 19th century Dutch amateur ... Indeed a few Dutch sources from around 1980 already called 5...a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 the Byrne Attack (same with 4.Bg5 vs the Pirc).
The English Attack only arises after 5...e6 (Scheveningen) 6.Be3 and 7.f3 or 5...a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3.

3.Bb5 is called Spanish (Spaans in Dutch) at least since Max Euwe started to write opening books. It would not surprise me, if Tarrasch already called it Spanisch. That is somewhat earlier than 1980. The phenomenon IM Cox is writing about, only indicates that for once some English were willing to leave splendid isolation.  Smiley

The oldest opening variation with two names - interesting question. I nominate 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 - I have seen Polerio Gambit, Muzio Gambit and Polerio-Muzio Gambit.
Another candidate is 1.d4 f5. The name Dutch Defence has stuck, but there was a time, early 19th century, that it was also called the Stein Defence, after an unknown Dutch amateur who wrote a monograph on it somewhere in the 18th century.

Debates about the right names for openings? Nothing new under the sun.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #32 - 05/14/07 at 19:25:19
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Quote:
What about Byrne's contribution to the development of the "English" attack? He was American, right?


Hear, hear!  Byrne still is American, by the way.  And indeed, he was playing that stuff back around 1971, when it was still considered rather offbeat.  It seems that only against (an early) ...e5 would he follow up with f3 and g4, though.  In ...e6 lines he would often play an early g4, but prepared by Be2.  

As an aside I might mention that 4. Bg5 in the Pirc (one of White's most dangerous lines in recent years) used to be called after Byrne, and as far as I know the ...c6 and ...a6 system in the Sämisch KID still is.  All of these references are to GM Robert by the way, not to be confused with his late IM brother Donald. 
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #31 - 05/14/07 at 17:47:21
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What about Byrne's contribution to the development of the "English" attack? He was American, right?
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #30 - 05/14/07 at 12:23:29
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Was Greco an amateur, I wonder?
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #29 - 05/14/07 at 12:13:57
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/14/07 at 10:37:41:
If you mean the English Attack with Be3/f3/g4 in the Sicilian, I think we have a pretty good claim there. Chandler/Short/Nunn really did bring this line from nowhere to the top level, and whether some Dutch amateur made some of the same moves a hundred years before really isn't that important. Who do you say it should be named after, anyway?!

Isnt Chandler a kiwi Wink
  

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TalJechin
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #28 - 05/14/07 at 11:00:54
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/14/07 at 10:37:41:
The first one that everyone started calling something else was the Ruy. About 1980 people started talking about the Spanish. The pendulum seems actually to have swung back on that one, but not the Centre Counter.


I don't know if the Ruy is the first to be called something else, at least I doubt it.  Undecided

But about shift to 'Spanish' in the 80s, were probably due to England coming closer to Europe due to the German Sportverlag etc, in those days opening literature in chess wasn't very hot in publishing circles.


Quote:
Another one I miss is the Greco Counter Gambit. So much better than the Latvian. And surely Greco must have been first?!


So name changes should only be done to honor English players, otherwise it's right to name them after amateurs who were first?!  Tongue

Btw, in the FKG I named 1.e4 e5 2.f4 f5 the Greco Counter Gambit for the same reason, so it's taken nowadays! Wink
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #27 - 05/14/07 at 10:37:41
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If you mean the English Attack with Be3/f3/g4 in the Sicilian, I think we have a pretty good claim there. Chandler/Short/Nunn really did bring this line from nowhere to the top level, and whether some Dutch amateur made some of the same moves a hundred years before really isn't that important. Who do you say it should be named after, anyway?!

I had no idea everyone didn't call 3 c3 the Danish Gambit. What's the German edition of Muller and whoever-it-was called, then?

The first one that everyone started calling something else was the Ruy. About 1980 people started talking about the Spanish. The pendulum seems actually to have swung back on that one, but not the Centre Counter.

Another one I miss is the Greco Counter Gambit. So much better than the Latvian. And surely Greco must have been first?!
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #26 - 05/14/07 at 07:07:57
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I don't know either John, but I would suggest that it might have something to do with Bent Larsen's adoption of it !

I know that's a bit tenuous but it's the best I can do !
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #25 - 05/12/07 at 03:31:53
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kevinludwig wrote on 05/12/07 at 00:50:40:
Related question. I recently played the white side of: 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4. Now, I normally don't play 1. e4, but I knew my opponent would play this variation of the center counter, which was enough to get me to play this. I expected to end up on the white side of a Panov-Botvinnik. 3. ...e6. So much for the Panov-Botvinnik. 4. d4 exd4. And it was at this point that I realized that I had basically just played into a French exchange. So in this line, if white wants to play for advantage, he has to play 4. dxe6 Bxe6, and know the refutation of some dodgy gambit? Thanks...


Right.  It's called the Icelandic Gambit.  Seems to me it started raising its (ugly?) head around the end of the '80s.  I can't claim to be up on its theory, but I see that NCO thinks that 5. Nf3 should result in a clear advantage for White, after 5...Nc6 or 5...Qe7.  ECO/Small ECO offers instead 5...c5 as leading to "compensation for the material," though that looks dubious to me.
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #24 - 05/12/07 at 00:50:40
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Related question. I recently played the white side of: 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4. Now, I normally don't play 1. e4, but I knew my opponent would play this variation of the center counter, which was enough to get me to play this. I expected to end up on the white side of a Panov-Botvinnik. 3. ...e6. So much for the Panov-Botvinnik. 4. d4 exd4. And it was at this point that I realized that I had basically just played into a French exchange. So in this line, if white wants to play for advantage, he has to play 4. dxe6 Bxe6, and know the refutation of some dodgy gambit? Thanks...
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #23 - 05/11/07 at 20:30:00
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/11/07 at 14:02:08:
Thanks, Taljechin. Mr Englund of Englund Gambit fame, no doubt. It still seems to me that the Centre Counter-ites have slightly better historical claims.

But anyway I rather like having different names for openings in different languages. The fad I meant was really the one in English of starting to call the Ruy the Spanish, and so on.


As long as you and your compatriots - like Mr. Davies very recently - call 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 the Danish, while it was invented and regularly played by a Swede, I don't give much for English historical claims. Same with the infamous "English Attack".
Moreover it is fun indeed having different names in different languages.
Tsjeljabinsk = Lasker-Pelikan = Svesjnikov
Danish = Norwegian (in Dutch) = Nordic (in German)
And I have never understood the subtile differences between the Paulsen, Kan and Taimanov.
Does anyone know an opening with more than three names?

Calling 1.e4 d5 the CC has another objection: see Marno's poll - I thought he meant Correspondence Chess. Nah, the otherwise very creative English have done a lousy job with Centre Counter. What a lack of fantasy!
Let us admit it - the Marshall Gambit in the Scandinavian Centre Counter has some intrinsic poetry.
  

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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #22 - 05/11/07 at 15:38:36
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/11/07 at 14:02:08:
Thanks, Taljechin. Mr Englund of Englund Gambit fame, no doubt. It still seems to me that the Centre Counter-ites have slightly better historical claims.

But anyway I rather like having different names for openings in different languages. The fad I meant was really the one in English of starting to call the Ruy the Spanish, and so on.


I got the impression that the CC wasn't countering so much before the scandinavians (or maybe the germans?) came up with Qa5. So historically the SD seems to have just as good claims - 28 years (1916-1888) isn't much of a time frame, so maybe it's more surprising that the CC has clung on...

Btw, iirc Englund died shortly after having arranged a theme tournament on 1.d4 e5 and that was why it eventually became attached to his name. Similar to how Zukertort's became Reti's Opening.

So in 50 years we can expect some openings to change names. Btw, I recall that somebody quipped about how fun it would be if Daniel King would invent a gambit...  Smiley
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #21 - 05/11/07 at 14:02:08
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Thanks, Taljechin. Mr Englund of Englund Gambit fame, no doubt. It still seems to me that the Centre Counter-ites have slightly better historical claims.

But anyway I rather like having different names for openings in different languages. The fad I meant was really the one in English of starting to call the Ruy the Spanish, and so on.
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #20 - 05/10/07 at 19:02:19
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In the game against Vitiugov Maier must have been totally desperate, because he lost the first tie-break game and had to win the second.
The opening was no success though, he agreed to a draw after some moves in a clearly worse position.
He should have asked Short or Jussupov...
  
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Re: transpose french exchange to center counter?
Reply #19 - 05/10/07 at 17:07:04
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/10/07 at 12:32:23:
I'm guessing it means that he calls it the Centre Counter and not the Scandinavian.

When did this fad for calling it the Scandinavian come in, by the way? The opening was already being called the Centre Counter in 1880; surely Scandinavian chess had hardly started to enter the mainstream consciousness by then, had it?


FYI, already the vikings played chess - maybe it was they who taught their british subjects how to play?  Wink


According to Lutes, the SD/CC is ascribed to Luis Ramirez Lucena and dated at the very beginning of new chess 1435-1475. One of the earliest recorded games was in a Catalonian poem using a game of chess as parable for the courtship between Venus and Mars. i.e 1.e4 d5 2.ed Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 which was later also mentioned by Ruy Lopez in 1561.

Skipping thru the years, it could be of interest to know that 2...Nf6 was invented by the Russian analyst Major Carl Friedrich Jaenisch (1813-1872), whom was also the first to style the opening as the 'Contre-Gambit du Centre'.

Around 1888
"The entire defense, in all its ramifications, was repeatedly played and analyzed by Gustaf Nyholm, Gustaf Collijn, Ludvig Collijn, Fritz Englund, Karl Berndtsson, and Erhard Björklund, as well as many others. These Scandinavian masters completely reshaped the defense into an exciting and interesting asymmetrical opening. Their monumental analysis appeared in the Lärobok i Schack, in 1912, and again in 1921"

"In honor of their work, the defense acquired its European denomination of the 'Scandinavian Defense.' The new name first appeared in the 1916 edition of the German Handbuch des Schachspiels (p. 820); where Carl Schlechter says of it that '... Thorough analysis by Northern amateurs has ... established its playability and soundness' "

From: W. John Lutes' Scandinavian Defense - Anderssen Counter Attack.
  
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