So far I must really agree, I cound not find anything promising for white after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4. 

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Yes, 8...d5 is not a good move. After 8...Nxb3 9.axb3 d6 10.Be3 (idea Nb6) 10...c5 11.c3 (idea d3-d4) however, I would prefer white, too. But black can play 8...d6 first (thats more precise, no Nb6 idea so 10.Be3 is not effektive). In this case Im not sure how the position has to be evaluated. It deserves a precise analyse, it cannot be estimated at this point. I will do that, but at the moment I do not have much time unfortunately.

White can also consider 5.Qf3....8...d7-d5 9.Ne3.

I had a short look at 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 yesterday. After 3...exf4 4.Nf3 g5 white has some (!) possiblities to sacrifice a piece. It would take some time to analyse this as well But I wondered if black can just equalize with 4...Nf6 5.Bc4 Bb4 (also 4...Bb4 is possible, which might be just a transposition). In this case all these lines with piece sacrifice would be quite uninteresting of course.

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The variation with g3 is a dangerous weapon for white (if one is well prepared). Its similar to Gleks system and I do not have to point out that Glek achieved some quick wins with it.
However this variation with Bc5 (if white played Nf3) seems very solid for black. e.g in your given line, black can play 13....Nd4 or maybe also 15...Bf6 and after 16.f5 Re8 with the idea to play e5-e4 of course. In the above mentioned game Hedgehog-Flyings Saucers Im wondering a little why black played Qd7 Kh2 d6-d5 instead of immediatly d5. Anyway , there is absolutely no advantage for white after Nh4. I saw some games of Glek in this variation, he often played Be3 Bxe3 fxe3. The f-flie is open now but white has a very bad bishop (after Nc6-e7-g6,c7-c5) and an attack on the kingsside for white seems to be not realistic (see game Clairedelune vs Abeljusto,you can find it at www.chesscenter.com and www.rybkachess.com too I think.)

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9.Nb1 looks like a bad move to me. I would play 9.Na4 with the idea 9...d5 10.f4 which looks quite good for white. You might say Na4 is very bad there on a4 , but you also should not underestimate white's lead in developement due to your "large" number of pawn moves

In case of 5.Qf3 the same idea with b7-b5-b4 might be an option, but even there it seems to me that black does not have an easy task to prove equality.

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8.h3 is met by 8...Be6 9.Nh4 (9.Kh2 h6 10.Nh4 d5= ; 9.Ng5 Bd7 10...h6) Qd7 10.Kh2 d5= see hedgehog-Flying Saucers, in case of 9. or 10.Be3 see Clairedelune-Abeljusto. I already mentioned these 2 games, played in the 4th freestyle tournament.

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Whats the idea of delaying Nxc4 ? I think black should exchange anyway on c4 later. So I would just play 6.0-0 , Ng3, Qf3, Nf5, maybe including h2-h3 at the right moment. White can also play 5.Qf3 with the same ideas, similar structures will arise then.
But Im not so sure what I should play after 4...Bb4. I already tried 5.Nf3 and 5.Bg5, in both cases black will exchange sooner or later on c3, the resulting positions are interesting. 5.Nge2 d5 seems to be quite drawish, so I did not play that.

With a couple of 100's points less I should remain modest of course. You still might ask your friend about the game Tseitlin-Marciano, Bucharest 1993. Or does your friend refer to the Steinitz Gambit 3.f4 exf4 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2 ?
Have you experience with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Na5 ? Especially after 5.Nge2 c6 White's result have been very discouraging.

As Paddy has given another good reason to avoid 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 (see next post), you might focus on 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 (or 2.Nf3) Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 (g6 4.d4) 4.g3 Bc5 5.Bg2 d6 6.d3 a6 7.0-0 0-0 8.h3 idea 9.Kh2, 10.Nh4 and 11.f4.

Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:01:12:


I am afraid, that even now I do not understand .... You asked me, what I recommended for Black, didn't you?

Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:01:12:

Concerning the move order for White, I am not sure. Regarding the 3...d5/4...d5 main variation, I would say that White will not object the extra options with ...Nd7. After all Black will have to spend time to activate Bc8. Regarding the ...Bc5 variations, I would say, that it is nice to have the option of x.Nge2. I would not fear the Ponziani Reversed (c6 and d5) either. This opening in itself is not dangerous and the extra tempo 3.g3 must be useful.
The main snag might be the Symmetrical Defence 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6. White will have to decide before Black does, how to develop the King's Knight. Something like 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nge2 Nge7 6.0-0 0-0 7.d3 d6 looks very equal to me. In the Glek move-order 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 g6 (but ...Bc5 ...) 5.Bg2 Bg7 White can break symmetry with 6.d4. This likely transposes to a variation of the Pirc: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.g3 Bg7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.Nge2 e5 7.h3 Nc6 8.Be3 exd4 9.Nxd4.
So the desired move order via the Vienna might be 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3. Unfortunately 5...Nge7 seems to favour Black. How to solve this dilemma? There are four possible answers.
1. Play 2.Nf3 anyway.
2. Play a mixture: 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 and 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3. Hope, that you will not meet ...Bc5 too often, but prepare it just in case.
3. Find something interesting after 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6.
4. Decide behind the board, depending on opponent, circumstances and mood. This requires a little more work, but might bear most fruit.

brabo wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:27:38:


Tseitlin/Glaskov disagree: 6...Bc5 7.Ne2 Nc6 8.0-0 Be6 =+.
They give 7.Nf3 e4 8.Ng5 Qxg5 9.d4 and 7.d3 0-0 8.Nf3 e4 9.Ng5 exd3 10.0-0 dxc2 11.Qxc2 and "White has definite compensation for the pawn."

brabo, it seems to me that you do not understand that I only intend to play Ne2 if black plays the setup Bc5,Nc6,a6,d6 and so on, which is a very common setup for black against Gleks system too. After 3...d7-d5 I will transpose to Gleks variation (5.Nf3). If this position is better for white or not, this is a little bit off topic because the question is which move order white should choose if he likes to play the variation with early d7-d5.

Both critical replies for black are based on the thematic d5. There are however some important nuances see:
1. e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. g3, d5 4. ed5:, Nd5 5. Bg2 (5. Nf3 still returns to the Glek variation) , Nc3: 6. bc3:, Bc5 (6.., Nc6 leads indeed to a transposition) 7. Nf3, e4!? 8. Nd4! , 0-0 Taking on d4 is extremely risky as proves the huge plusscore in practice for white. Now it is clear that the e-pawn can't be taken but how to proceed best is not easy to find.  

Probably the wisest choice for white is 7. Ne2. Personally I find the Glek variation with Nf3 more critical (d4 has more effect and also Re1 is more attractive while f4 is always difficult to achieve correctly in this kind of positions) but this doesn't mean at all that white stands worse after 7. Ne2. (There is e.g the sheme d3 - c4 - Nc3 and so on)

B.t.w. one variation black better avoids in the Glek system is : 1.e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. Nf3, Nc6 4. g3, d5 5. ed5:, Nd5: 6. Bg2, Nc3: 7. bc3:, Bc5 (More active than Bd6.) 8. 0-0, 0-0 9. Re1, Re8?! (Qf6 from Tkachiev is good but there are other interesting moves.) 10. d4, ed4: 11. Re8+:, Qe8: 12. cd4:, Bb6 13. c4, Bg4 15. c5, Rd8 16. cb6:, Nd4: 17. Qd4:!, Rd4: 18. Nd4: with an unbalanced endgame which should give white the better chances.