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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C25-C26:1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 (Read 10284 times)
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #21 - 05/22/07 at 12:22:29
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So far I must really agree, I cound not find anything promising for white after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4.  Cry
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #20 - 05/19/07 at 14:32:57
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1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 is familiar territory for me. First the easy question. 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bb4 transposes to a variation of the King's Bishop Gambit: 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4. According to Johansson's standard work on this gambit White preserves an edge, even after Black's best play. A classical example of course is Spielmann-Bogoljubow, Triberg 1921. See The Fascinating King's Gambit. According to Johansson 4...Bb4 5.Nf3 does not necessarily transpose; again see FKG.

4.Nf3 g5 5.h4 is the Hamppe-Allgaier Gambit (though Hamppe, the originator of the Vienna, never played it) and 5.d4 the Pierce Gambit. Harding has treated both in his column at Chesscafe. He is suspicious of the first and analyses the second to a forced draw after some highly complicated tactics.
So save your time and look there first. The columns can be found in the chesscafe archives.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #19 - 05/19/07 at 12:52:57
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8.Na4 is an improvement indeed (Black cannot win a tempo with ...Bc5+) and this version is better than 5.Qf3, as this is not really a developing move (Black can afford to play 9...d5).
5.Nge2 ....8.Na4 Nxb3 9.axb3 and d5 indeed runs into 10.f4. A sample line is dxe4 11.fxe5 exd3 12.exf6 dxe2+ 13.Qxe2+ Be6 14.fxg7 Bxg7 15.Nc5.
So 9...d6 10.f4 exf4 11.Bxf4 Be7 with equality, Huber-Meissner, DEU 1999.


Yes, 8...d5 is not a good move. After 8...Nxb3 9.axb3 d6 10.Be3 (idea Nb6) 10...c5 11.c3 (idea d3-d4) however, I would prefer white, too. But black can play 8...d6 first (thats more precise, no Nb6 idea so 10.Be3 is not effektive). In this case Im not sure how the position has to be evaluated. It deserves a precise analyse, it cannot be estimated at this point. I will do that, but at the moment I do not have much time unfortunately.

White can also consider 5.Qf3....8...d7-d5 9.Ne3.

I had a short look at 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 yesterday. After 3...exf4 4.Nf3 g5 white has some (!) possiblities to sacrifice a piece. It would take some time to analyse this as well Smiley But I wondered if black can just equalize with 4...Nf6 5.Bc4 Bb4 (also 4...Bb4 is possible, which might be just a transposition). In this case all these lines with piece sacrifice would be quite uninteresting of course.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #18 - 05/18/07 at 02:49:48
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Exactly because of that knight on a4, we should not overestimate White's lead in development either. Moreover you forget something: Black has the pair of bishops and the position is likely to be opened in the near future. 8.Na4 is an improvement indeed (Black cannot win a tempo with ...Bc5+) and this version is better than 5.Qf3, as this is not really a developing move (Black can afford to play 9...d5).
5.Nge2 ....8.Na4 Nxb3 9.axb3 and d5 indeed runs into 10.f4. A sample line is dxe4 11.fxe5 exd3 12.exf6 dxe2+ 13.Qxe2+ Be6 14.fxg7 Bxg7 15.Nc5.
So 9...d6 10.f4 exf4 11.Bxf4 Be7 with equality, Huber-Meissner, DEU 1999.

There is also 4...Na5 5.Nge2 c6 6.0-0 Bc5 of course. Black can afford to wait, until White has played x.a3 or x.a4. Compared to 5...Nxc4 immediately, White's options are somewhat limited. Eg see Finkel-Marciano, Bastia 1998. If Black is ambitious, he might try 9...a5.
I am not convinced yet, that 2...Nc6 3.Bc4 offers more than 2...Nc6 3.g3 (that is, straight equality). If I were, I would immediately pick up 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 again. The pin 4...Bb4 is probably also equal, but quite interesting after 5.Bg5, as my hero has showed.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #17 - 05/17/07 at 23:14:45
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In the meantime I may point at White's excellent score after 8.h3 Be6. Maybe 9.Kh2 h6 10.Nh4 d5 is equal indeed, but I would say that after 11.exd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 Bxd5 13.Nf5 Polgar-Arlandi, Portoroz 1991, White still has something to play for, even after the still more simplifying 13...Ne7 14.Nxe7+ Bxe7 15.f4 Bxg2 16.Kxg2 exf4 17.Bxf4. He has a centre pawn, a halfopen f-file and a queenside majority. Admitted, it is not much, but then, what do you expect after a modest setup like 3.g3 ?


The variation with g3 is a dangerous weapon for white (if one is well prepared). Its similar to Gleks system and I do not have to point out that Glek achieved some quick wins with it.
However this variation with Bc5 (if white played Nf3) seems very solid for black. e.g in your given line, black can play 13....Nd4 or maybe also 15...Bf6 and after 16.f5 Re8 with the idea to play e5-e4 of course. In the above mentioned game Hedgehog-Flyings Saucers Im wondering a little why black played Qd7 Kh2 d6-d5 instead of immediatly d5. Anyway , there is absolutely no advantage for white after Nh4. I saw some games of Glek in this variation, he often played Be3 Bxe3 fxe3. The f-flie is open now but white has a very bad bishop (after Nc6-e7-g6,c7-c5) and an attack on the kingsside for white seems to be not realistic (see game Clairedelune vs Abeljusto,you can find it at www.chesscenter.com and www.rybkachess.com too I think.)

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The idea of 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Na5 5.Nge2 c6 is to exchange, when it suits Black. After 6.0-0 b5! 7.Bb3 Nxb3 8.axb3 b4 9.Nb1 d5 Black has the initiative, Mitkov-Winants, FRAchT 1999.


9.Nb1 looks like a bad move to me. I would play 9.Na4 with the idea 9...d5 10.f4 which looks quite good for white. You might say Na4 is very bad there on a4 , but you also should not underestimate white's lead in developement due to your "large" number of pawn moves Smiley

In case of 5.Qf3 the same idea with b7-b5-b4 might be an option, but even there it seems to me that black does not have an easy task to prove equality.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #16 - 05/17/07 at 20:33:32
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I have no idea about those freestyling Debussy and Flying Saucers games. Nice you mention them, but I have mainly regular games in my database. So, to enlighten us, you might give the scores?
In the meantime I may point at White's excellent score after 8.h3 Be6. Maybe 9.Kh2 h6 10.Nh4 d5 is equal indeed, but I would say that after 11.exd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 Bxd5 13.Nf5 Polgar-Arlandi, Portoroz 1991, White still has something to play for, even after the still more simplifying 13...Ne7 14.Nxe7+ Bxe7 15.f4 Bxg2 16.Kxg2 exf4 17.Bxf4. He has a centre pawn, a halfopen f-file and a queenside majority. Admitted, it is not much, but then, what do you expect after a modest setup like 3.g3 ?
The same after 9.Nh4 Qd7 10.Qd2 d5 11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe4: there is still a whole game to play.

The idea of 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Na5 5.Nge2 c6 is to exchange, when it suits Black. After 6.0-0 b5! 7.Bb3 Nxb3 8.axb3 b4 9.Nb1 d5 Black has the initiative, Mitkov-Winants, FRAchT 1999.
The same idea after 5.Qf3 c6 6.Nge2, though the knight is somewhat better on d1 than on b1.
So White will have to play 6.a3 or 6.a4, which both are quite useless.
But if you are happy to play this, go ahead.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #15 - 05/17/07 at 11:52:51
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As Paddy has given another good reason to avoid 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 (see next post), you might focus on 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 (or 2.Nf3) Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 (g6 4.d4) 4.g3 Bc5 5.Bg2 d6 6.d3 a6 7.0-0 0-0 8.h3 idea 9.Kh2, 10.Nh4 and 11.f4.


8.h3 is met by 8...Be6 9.Nh4 (9.Kh2 h6 10.Nh4 d5= ; 9.Ng5 Bd7 10...h6) Qd7 10.Kh2 d5= see hedgehog-Flying Saucers, in case of 9. or 10.Be3 see Clairedelune-Abeljusto. I already mentioned these 2 games, played in the 4th freestyle tournament.

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Have you experience with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Na5 ? Especially after 5.Nge2 c6 White's result have been very discouraging.


Whats the idea of delaying Nxc4 ? Huh I think black should exchange anyway on c4 later. So I would just play 6.0-0 , Ng3, Qf3, Nf5, maybe including h2-h3 at the right moment. White can also play 5.Qf3 with the same ideas, similar structures will arise then.
But Im not so sure what I should play after 4...Bb4. I already tried 5.Nf3 and 5.Bg5, in both cases black will exchange sooner or later on c3, the resulting positions are interesting. 5.Nge2 d5 seems to be quite drawish, so I did not play that.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #14 - 05/16/07 at 23:15:35
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/15/07 at 16:01:50:
Hi !

Does anybody know why A) 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 is less popular than B) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3 (Glek variation) ? What would you recommend for black ?
The advantage of variation A) is that 3...Bc5 can be met by Nge2,0-0,h3,Kh2,f2-f4. But against Glek's variation 4...Bc5 seems to be the best try to me.



Not strictly relevant perhaps but it might be of interest that Soltis played the Vienna with 3 g3 a lot in the 1980s but became dissatisfied with 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3.

"Too many lower-rated opponents had been getting good positions from symmetry against me (3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 etc.) and too many good opponents knew enough not to block their f-pawns ( 3 g3 Bc5 4 Bg2 a6! 5 d3 d6 6 Nge2 Nge7 and ...f7-f5)." (Confessions of a Grandmaster, 1990)
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #13 - 05/16/07 at 22:56:54
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With a couple of 100's points less I should remain modest of course. You still might ask your friend about the game Tseitlin-Marciano, Bucharest 1993. Or does your friend refer to the Steinitz Gambit 3.f4 exf4 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Ke2 ?
Have you experience with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Na5 ? Especially after 5.Nge2 c6 White's result have been very discouraging.

As Paddy has given another good reason to avoid 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 (see next post), you might focus on 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 (or 2.Nf3) Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 (g6 4.d4) 4.g3 Bc5 5.Bg2 d6 6.d3 a6 7.0-0 0-0 8.h3 idea 9.Kh2, 10.Nh4 and 11.f4.
« Last Edit: 05/17/07 at 00:03:58 by MNb »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #12 - 05/16/07 at 21:23:37
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I am afraid, that even now I do not understand .... You asked me, what I recommended for Black, didn't you?


I expected you would suggested something else than Nc6 in order to prove that the 3.g3 move order is unprecise. But something with Nd7 is very passiv of course.

A friend of me (rating over 2350) told me after 2.Nc3 Nc6 is slightly unprecise because of 3.f4. But I do not know anything about 3.f4. At the moment I would play 3.Bc4 . I dropped that opening because of 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 c6 / 3.Nc3 Bb4 , but after 2...Nc6 thats not possible.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #11 - 05/16/07 at 21:09:23
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:01:12:
Well, it seems you do not understand my question ....


I am afraid, that even now I do not understand .... You asked me, what I recommended for Black, didn't you?

Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:01:12:
If I am right white should prefer 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 instaed of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3, assuming the variations with c7-c6 are not convincing.

Did I miss any disadvantages of the  1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 move order ?


Concerning the move order for White, I am not sure. Regarding the 3...d5/4...d5 main variation, I would say that White will not object the extra options with ...Nd7. After all Black will have to spend time to activate Bc8. Regarding the ...Bc5 variations, I would say, that it is nice to have the option of x.Nge2. I would not fear the Ponziani Reversed (c6 and d5) either. This opening in itself is not dangerous and the extra tempo 3.g3 must be useful.
The main snag might be the Symmetrical Defence 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6. White will have to decide before Black does, how to develop the King's Knight. Something like 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nge2 Nge7 6.0-0 0-0 7.d3 d6 looks very equal to me. In the Glek move-order 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 g6 (but ...Bc5 ...) 5.Bg2 Bg7 White can break symmetry with 6.d4. This likely transposes to a variation of the Pirc: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.g3 Bg7 5.Bg2 0-0 6.Nge2 e5 7.h3 Nc6 8.Be3 exd4 9.Nxd4.
So the desired move order via the Vienna might be 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3. Unfortunately 5...Nge7 seems to favour Black. How to solve this dilemma? There are four possible answers.
1. Play 2.Nf3 anyway.
2. Play a mixture: 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 and 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3. Hope, that you will not meet ...Bc5 too often, but prepare it just in case.
3. Find something interesting after 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6.
4. Decide behind the board, depending on opponent, circumstances and mood. This requires a little more work, but might bear most fruit.

brabo wrote on 05/16/07 at 12:27:38:
Both critical replies for black are based on the thematic d5. There are however some important nuances see:
1. e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. g3, d5 4. ed5:, Nd5 5. Bg2 (5. Nf3 still returns to the Glek variation) , Nc3: 6. bc3:, Bc5 (6.., Nc6 leads indeed to a transposition) 7. Nf3, e4!? 8. Nd4! , 0-0 Taking on d4 is extremely risky as proves the huge plusscore in practice for white. Now it is clear that the e-pawn can't be taken but how to proceed best is not easy to find. 

Probably the wisest choice for white is 7. Ne2. Personally I find the Glek variation with Nf3 more critical (d4 has more effect and also Re1 is more attractive while f4 is always difficult to achieve correctly in this kind of positions) but this doesn't mean at all that white stands worse after 7. Ne2. (There is e.g the sheme d3 - c4 - Nc3 and so on)


Tseitlin/Glaskov disagree: 6...Bc5 7.Ne2 Nc6 8.0-0 Be6 =+.
They give 7.Nf3 e4 8.Ng5 Qxg5 9.d4 and 7.d3 0-0 8.Nf3 e4 9.Ng5 exd3 10.0-0 dxc2 11.Qxc2 and "White has definite compensation for the pawn."
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #10 - 05/16/07 at 20:24:03
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The 3g3 move order might be slightly more accurate than the 4 knights move order as it does give white more options against 6..Bc5. you still haven't shown why 7Ne2 should be any better than 7Nf3 though
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #9 - 05/16/07 at 12:56:40
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brabo, it seems to me that you do not understand that I only intend to play Ne2 if black plays the setup Bc5,Nc6,a6,d6 and so on, which is a very common setup for black against Gleks system too. After 3...d7-d5 I will transpose to Gleks variation (5.Nf3). If this position is better for white or not, this is a little bit off topic because the question is which move order white should choose if he likes to play the variation with early d7-d5.
« Last Edit: 05/16/07 at 18:07:49 by Strategy_Rules »  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #8 - 05/16/07 at 12:39:57
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 05/15/07 at 16:01:50:
Hi !

Does anybody know why A) 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 is less popular than B) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.g3 (Glek variation) ? What would you recommend for black ?
The advantage of variation A) is that 3...Bc5 can be met by Nge2,0-0,h3,Kh2,f2-f4. But against Glek's variation 4...Bc5 seems to be the best try to me.




A good antidote which I always use againt the Nge2,0-0,h3,Kh2, f4 plan and based on the Bc5 variation is the idea Be6. See:
1. e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. g3, d5 4. ed5:, Nd5 5. Bg2, Nc3: 6. bc3:, Bc5 7. Ne2, Nc6 8. 0-0, 0-0 9. h3, Be6 10. Kh2, Bd5 and after exchanging the bishops, the thematic push with f4 has lost a lot attractiveness due to the seriously weakened white squares.
White can try to avoid this idea by including 9. d3, Be6 10. c4 but then black follows up with 10. .., Qd7 after which h3 becomes impossible. You can see here some clear disadvantages of the knight on e2: there is no Ng5 to counter the idea and there is no Re1 to put pressure on e5 and avoid this ideal setup.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3
Reply #7 - 05/16/07 at 12:27:38
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Both critical replies for black are based on the thematic d5. There are however some important nuances see:
1. e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. g3, d5 4. ed5:, Nd5 5. Bg2 (5. Nf3 still returns to the Glek variation) , Nc3: 6. bc3:, Bc5 (6.., Nc6 leads indeed to a transposition) 7. Nf3, e4!? 8. Nd4! , 0-0 Taking on d4 is extremely risky as proves the huge plusscore in practice for white. Now it is clear that the e-pawn can't be taken but how to proceed best is not easy to find.  

Probably the wisest choice for white is 7. Ne2. Personally I find the Glek variation with Nf3 more critical (d4 has more effect and also Re1 is more attractive while f4 is always difficult to achieve correctly in this kind of positions) but this doesn't mean at all that white stands worse after 7. Ne2. (There is e.g the sheme d3 - c4 - Nc3 and so on)

B.t.w. one variation black better avoids in the Glek system is : 1.e4, e5 2. Nc3, Nf6 3. Nf3, Nc6 4. g3, d5 5. ed5:, Nd5: 6. Bg2, Nc3: 7. bc3:, Bc5 (More active than Bd6.) 8. 0-0, 0-0 9. Re1, Re8?! (Qf6 from Tkachiev is good but there are other interesting moves.) 10. d4, ed4: 11. Re8+:, Qe8: 12. cd4:, Bb6 13. c4, Bg4 15. c5, Rd8 16. cb6:, Nd4: 17. Qd4:!, Rd4: 18. Nd4: with an unbalanced endgame which should give white the better chances.
  
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