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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White (Read 10777 times)
Semko
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #20 - 05/25/07 at 21:48:02
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John, perhaps my English proved too poor to convey what I really intended to say. On pages 86-88 of the Second edition (May 2005) I repeat at least three times that the break ...c6 is the main counterplay of Black, and that the game Karpov - Milov is clearly better for White and should be avoided. Instead my main line proposes an improvement, but the final evaluation is: "White still retains some tiny edge". Here are a few quotes:
1. From the Conclusion:
"4.Nf3 Bg4 5.d5 Ne5 is the more “academic” line. Then 6.Bf4 Ng6 7.Be3 Nf6 8.Nc3 e5 leads to a well known pawn structure where Black neutralizes White’s initial initiative by the help of the break c7-c6." page88

2. I recommend to save 9...a6 (karpov - Milov is with ...a6), exactly because "by saving ...a6 Black also does not weaken the b6-square after a possible ...c6", page 86.

3. "13...Qe7?! (as in Karpov - Milov) misses the opportunity to achieve the c7-c6 break", page 87.

By the way, John, it strikes me that you just repeat the words of Baburin in Chess Today from 2-3 weeks ago about my coverage of 3...Nc6 being too optimistic for Black. Apparently a myth is born and I should address the MythBusters from Discovery Channel.




  
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Semko
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #19 - 05/25/07 at 21:21:21
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3.Nc3 a6! is a minor side line - the knight has popped up too early on c3 unless White wants to play the a4-system.

I must admit that I played only 3.e3 e6, but mostly because I have no experience in open games. Otherwise I think that 3...e5 is probably more solid. Let me note an interesting way for White to reach a totally original position via 3.e3. The game was played in a match Bulgaria - France and I supposed they had prepared something against standard deployment of Black. However I think that my treatment came as a surprise for Gilles.

[White "Andruet, Gilles"]
[Black "Semkov, Semko"]
[Result "0-1"]
[EventDate "1990.??.??"]
[Event "BUL-FRA m"]
[EventType "team"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e3 e6 4. Bxc4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Qf3 Nc6 7. a3 Bd6 8. h3
O-O 9. Nge2 e5 10. d5 e4 ! 11. Nxe4 Ne5 12. Nxf6+ Kh8! 13. Qe4 Qxf6 14. Qc2
Qg6 15. Qxg6 fxg6 16. Ba2 Nd3+ 17. Kd2 Nxf2 18. Rg1 Bd7 19. Nc3 Rae8 20. Bc4 c6
21. Ke2 b5 22. Bb3 Bf5 23. dxc6 Bd3+ 24. Kd2 Bh2 25. Re1 Rd8 26. Bd5 Be4 27.
Ke2 Bd3+ 28. Kd2 Be4 29. Ke2 Rxd5 30. Nxd5 Bxd5 31. b3 Bxb3 32. Bb2 Bc4+ 33.
Kd2 Ne4+ 34. Kc2 Rf2+ 35. Kb1 Bd3+ 36. Ka2 Be5 37. Rab1 Bxb1+ 38. Rxb1 Nc3+ 39.
Ka1 Nxb1 40. Bxe5 Nxa3 0-1

  
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LeeRoth
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #18 - 05/25/07 at 18:10:22
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/25/07 at 09:38:57:
Really? I thought 3 …a6 had always been the (other) major theoretical problem for 3 Nc3 (besides 3…e5 that is).


Yeah, I was too hasty in dismissing 3..a6.  Mea culpa for that.  But I wonder whether the theoretical reputation of 3..a6 isn't based on the fact that Black is fine after 4.a4 and 4.e4.  I'd always thought that 4.e3! b5 5.a4 b4 6.Qf3 c6 7.Bxc4 bxc3 8.Bxf7 is a promising line for White. 

More importantly, though, for the point I was trying to make, a little database work reveals that, after 4.e3, Black can play 4..Nf6 5.Bxc4 e6 6.Nf3 c5.  This pretty much scuttles my idea that 3.Nc3 can be used to keep Black from transposing to the classical lines.
Cry

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MarinFan
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #17 - 05/25/07 at 09:47:29
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Umm so now 3.Nc3 is the magic bullet against the QGA. That's a new one for me. I think black can play 3...Nf6 4.e4 e5 quite comfortably, depending on what black's defence against the 2.e4 line is. If 4.Bg5, black can play 4...c6 with a not very scary line of the slav if there is nothing better. (I think this line was recommended in "Attacking with 1.d4", but personally didn't find it a very impressive chapter). Whilst, 4...a6 with options like Nc6-a5, and Bg4 could give chances for black to get the advantage.

Bye John S
           
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #16 - 05/25/07 at 09:43:03
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By the way, Semko, I was looking through your QGA book the other day and it struck me that your coverage of 3 e4 Nc6 and in particular the Karpov-Milov line was very optimistic for Black, yet without really showing any good lines for him. Morozevich in his Chigorin book says that Black's correct plan is to aim for ...c6; whereas you tended to show games where Black went for it on the kingside (an approach I have difficulty believing). Any chance of beefing this section up a bit in the next edition?

In reply to the OP I would have thought 3 e4 was the most sensible idea. Reasonably forcing and self-contained and a fair amount of poison. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it attained the status of 'main line' one day.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #15 - 05/25/07 at 09:38:57
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Really? I thought 3 …a6 had always been the (other) major theoretical problem for 3 Nc3 (besides 3…e5 that is).

The trouble with 3 e3 is that it isn’t an independent line; just a move order trick to avoid some …Bg4 lines at the expense of giving Black this 3...e5 line. If Black plays the main line then as someone said he’ll just go 3…e6 4 Bxc4 Nf6 anyway, and White hardly has a better move than 5 Nf3. I would have expected this transposition to occur the vast majority of the time, although obviously if ErictheRed plays 3 e3 all the time and finds that most people play 3…e5 then I’m wrong.

Does one see the QGA much in the US, then? For some reason it’s extremely rare over here: Baburin plays it but apart from that I can think of only three players over 2200 I’ve ever seen play it.
  
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #14 - 05/24/07 at 22:40:20
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MarinFan wrote on 05/24/07 at 16:17:23:
  For somebody playing the black-side, if play the standard 3...Nf6, e6, c5 stuff, they can choose to ignore 3e3 e5 possibility if they wish.
Bye John S



True, but White can also play 3.Nc3, when 3..e5 4.e3 transposes to the 3.e3 line.  Meanwhile, White has avoided the transposition to the normal lines, since 3..Nf6 can now be met by 4.e4 or 4.Bg5!?.  If Black doesn't like the e3 line, he can instead try 3..a6 or 3..c6, but neither of these should bother White.   

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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #13 - 05/24/07 at 17:58:38
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MarinFan wrote on 05/24/07 at 16:17:23:
Hello,

  For somebody playing the black-side, if play the standard 3...Nf6, e6, c5 stuff, they can choose to ignore 3e3 e5 possibility if they wish.
Bye John S


Of course, the safest way!
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #12 - 05/24/07 at 17:55:55
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MarinFan wrote on 05/24/07 at 16:17:23:
Hello,

I think a big factor in whether to  prefer 3.e3 to 3Nf3, is how comfortable the white player is in facing lines involving Bg4.  
Bye John S


  Yes plan involting Bg4 and there is also 3.Nf3 a6 with the idea 4.e4 b5 not clear at all imo.

It should be note that white results are very good in the line 3.e3 e5
  

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MarinFan
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #11 - 05/24/07 at 16:17:23
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Hello,

I think a big factor in whether to  prefer 3.e3 to 3Nf3, is how comfortable the white player is in facing lines involving Bg4.
   For somebody playing the black-side, if play the standard 3...Nf6, e6, c5 stuff, they can choose to ignore 3e3 e5 possibility if they wish.

Bye John S
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #10 - 05/24/07 at 15:22:15
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Semko wrote on 05/24/07 at 11:44:14:
There is nothing new in the 3 e3 e5 line. It has never been assessed as worse for Black, on the contrary. If you listen to Dvoretsky, you might also want to play d3 against the Sicilian or Bxc6 against the Spanish. In fact, he does not really say a system is good or bad, he just explains some typical plans using a given variation for  an illustration.
After 3 e3 e5 Black could be worse if he was unable to develop his light-squared bishop. It happens in some other similar variations, mostly arising from the QGD. In our QGA situation, Black's c8-bishop comfortably lands on f5 or even e6 (after preparation). As I like to stress, flexibility (3 e3 or many other variations in all the openings) is always at the cost of lesser control of the centre - respectively, a wider (and sometimes better) choice for the opponent.


I guess I'll mofify my thoughts and say that many strong players think that 3.e3 poses Black interesting problems, even if it's theoretically only good for a very slight edge.

Sometimes I wonder what people are looking for when they post in the forums (look at exigentsky's post about theoretically challenging lines in the KID).  If you want to know what the absolutely most theoretically challenging lines are in a particular opening, just look at the latest opening monograph or top level GM games.  On the other hand, when people (like the thread originator) are looking for repertoire decisions, I think it's very practical to recommend "practical" choices.  I doubt anyone asking for repertoire options in a forum like this is rated +2400 FIDE, and for the rest of us non FIDE-titled players, "theory" doesn't matter so much.  It's much more important to play interesting, sound moves that we understand the ideas of, instead of parroting the most "theoretically challenging" lines (which change from year to year, anyway).

Note that I am NOT advocating playing things like the London system.  I just mean that it's OK to base your repertoire on, say, the Samisch against the KID instead of the more "theoretically challenging" Bayonet attack.  Unless you're consistently playing IMs, it isn't likely to affect your results.

On the other hand, if Black can equalize easily against 3.e3, maybe you shouldn't play it.  But I've had good results with it against 2000-2300 rated opposition as in practice, I think it does pose interesting problems for Black (essentially he is playing an IQP position with a pawn on c6 instead of e6, which is different than most other lines of the QGA.  Often Black players haven't studied these positions as much as the "standard" lines, so that White has good chances for an edge in practice).
  
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #9 - 05/24/07 at 15:05:05
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Well, the last two editions of ECO (1996 and 2004) as well as NCO (1998) "thought" that 3. e3 e5 should lead to a slight advantage for White.  Whereas back in the '70s, ECO gave it as leading to equality.  It seemed to me that the pendulum of theoretical opinion swung toward White in the '80s (Browne-Petrosian is one game I recall) ...

Amending what I wrote (the first bit of this post) about the historical question, I notice that in the 1990s, NCO (but not ECO) considered the earlier-mentioned Petroff line to which the 3. e3 e5 QGA can transpose (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Bd6 7. 0-0 0-0 8. c4 Nf6) as leading to equality.  If that's what the weight of current evidence (e.g. the Semko and Rizzitano books) indicates, I wonder why (as it seems to me) that way of playing the Petroff is none too popular.
« Last Edit: 05/24/07 at 20:50:01 by kylemeister »  
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Semko
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #8 - 05/24/07 at 11:44:14
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There is nothing new in the 3 e3 e5 line. It has never been assessed as worse for Black, on the contrary. If you listen to Dvoretsky, you might also want to play d3 against the Sicilian or Bxc6 against the Spanish. In fact, he does not really say a system is good or bad, he just explains some typical plans using a given variation for  an illustration.
After 3 e3 e5 Black could be worse if he was unable to develop his light-squared bishop. It happens in some other similar variations, mostly arising from the QGD. In our QGA situation, Black's c8-bishop comfortably lands on f5 or even e6 (after preparation). As I like to stress, flexibility (3 e3 or many other variations in all the openings) is always at the cost of lesser control of the centre - respectively, a wider (and sometimes better) choice for the opponent.
  
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #7 - 05/19/07 at 17:30:05
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I was surprised to see that Rizzitano (also) recommends 3...e5 against 3. e3 (the "Petroff" line involving ...Bd6, I believe).  I would have expected 3...Nf6 4. Bxc4 e6, since surely it usually transposes to mainline 3. Nf3 stuff (which is part of the Rizzitano repertoire), and because I would have thought it's better than 3...e5.  Perhaps the theoretical pendulum has swung back on the latter, though.
  
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Antillian
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Re: QGA: Suggestions for lines to learn as White
Reply #6 - 05/19/07 at 16:13:24
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You might want to consider the Furman variation. It is pretty thematic, and you often play with the isolani as White. Some lines also give White good K-side attacking chances.
  

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