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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Shabalov line (Read 13266 times)
Markovich
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #16 - 06/12/07 at 20:30:29
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 06/09/07 at 13:30:24:
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[quote]And in third place, it is abolsutely NORMAL for White to tretain a small advantage in most openings,

I must completely disagree with that statement. Most opening variations lead to complete equality (one of the exceptions might be some variations in the Najdorf where the position just stays dynamic and does not simplyfy, so unclear instaed of equal) if blacks chooses the best (or one of the best) variations. Of course I do not say that its always easy to find out (even not at home with the help of databases and engines) which is the best line for black for equality.


Well obviously, all chess positions are either won, drawn or lost.  In that sense "+=" is not a strictly objective evaluation.  "+=" means not that White is winning, but that White's game is more pleasant and his problems are easier to solve than Black's.  "=" means that the respective games are equally pleasant and the respective problems of about the same difficulty.  In that sense, which is quite important I think, it is definitely not the case that "most opening variations lead to complete equality [to '=', that is]."  Most opening variations lead instead to "+=," and I maintain that if White plays well, he can ensure that "+=" is the result of the opening phase of the game.

The question for Black is, what sort of disadantage he wants.  E.g. if you play IQP very well, by all means play the Tarrasch.  Objectively (ha ha) it is +=, but in many practical settings you'll be facing problems that are perhaps not too difficult for you.

  

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Klaus Junge
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #15 - 06/12/07 at 15:21:17
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Yes, I am. I just cannot help it!  Kiss
Sorry to have been unable to offer something useful for you.... Undecided
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #14 - 06/12/07 at 15:01:30
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if you follow my article you shall see my games

Huh .... Smiley ... Ah, you seem to be the author of this article, so you are Manuel Gerardo Monasterio ? I really could not know this.

  
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Klaus Junge
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #13 - 06/11/07 at 21:26:26
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Sir, I have told you that I have played these lines. chess is about concrete aplications, if you follow my article you shall see my games, that is all that I can offer. Sorry if it is not enough for you. Perhaps somebody else cares enough to answer you something else, I am done.
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #12 - 06/11/07 at 20:26:51
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I would rather call White plan a bluff and play immediately Nxg4

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What should I play? Nothing, because I only play dxc4 and Bb4...


Sometimes I really dont understand you Smiley

But one question: Did you ever analyse one of the variations (dxc4 or Bb4) systemetically ?
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #11 - 06/11/07 at 19:32:12
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What should I play? Nothing, because I only play dxc4 and Bb4... Grin
Of course, Black must go for f5 and the plan with Nf8...But I don't like such positions, as I already said.
Why don't you come with something? Apparently you have everything very clear on tyour head, enough "to refute" anything that appears from your coleagues here.... Roll Eyes

  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #10 - 06/11/07 at 09:26:02
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I would rather call White plan a bluff and play immediately Nxg4


A bluff ? Smiley What would you play after Nxg4 Rg1 then ?
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #9 - 06/10/07 at 16:08:29
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Ok, now the issue seems to be clarified, you have a choice, which seems to be the move 7...h6. I cannot give any advice on a move I just don't understand, Black is giving White something on which to bite later on. Perhaps it is the correct move, someone else may have a clue, I don't. I can only talk about my experience with both sides of the position, and that does not include the move 7...h6.
I would rather call White plan a bluff and play immediately Nxg4. But the position that arise from both of these moves are so tactical that to give variations is rather pointless. Both Bb4 and dxc4,on the contrary, allow strategic disquisitions...But that is not what you want.
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #8 - 06/10/07 at 15:03:27
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First, you are proposing something that implies an insoluble dilemma: "I do not like beeing attacked " There is nothing you can do about it, because "to be attacked" is a choice of your opponet's not yours. The only thing you can do is to be in a solid position to resist any eventual attack.


Well, I do not intend to continui such discussions. Im more interested in discussing some interesting variations for black in the Shabalov, e.g. 7...h6, which was played more often in 2007 than the moves 7...dxc4 and 7...Bb4 together ! Smiley

Well, I can propose something : For every intersting variation
(yes, a variation (and not just one move) that does not lead to a clearly worse position for black)
somebody will suggest against the shabalov I refute one of the lines that are recommended in these two articles:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/shabalovs_7g4_in_QG_semi_slav.html
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/shabalovs_7g4_in_QG_semi_slav_Pt2.h...
Please suggested something else than 7...dxc4 8.Bxc4 e5.

  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #7 - 06/09/07 at 15:40:40
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First, you are proposing something that implies an insoluble dilemma: "I do not like beeing attacked " There is nothing you can do about it, because "to be attacked" is a choice of your opponet's not yours. The only thing you can do is to be in a solid position to resist any eventual attack.

Shabalov's is an attacking line.

The author of the article is not just "using huge databases", he says at the beginning of the article, about 7...Bb4 "This is a solid move" A little later he adds:"My personal choice would be 9…Bxc3, which I consider the most solid move here. Black has a reasonable game after 10.Bxc3 dxc4 11.Bxc4 b5"

Therefore, he is clearly stating his opinion about the two most reliable lines dxc4 or Bb4.

If you go to your huge database and do some research, you shall see that both moves are the ones that give most chances for Black in terms of resisting White onslaught.

If you are going to critizice some other's work, please, do it `properly: read the complete article.

Last, nobody knows for "absolutely" sure such things in chess. If you listen to the greatest masters commentaries many times they say "I just don't know what is happening here" The day "they come to know for sure" would be the end of chess. We have not arrived to that yet.

The most reliable moves are Bb4 and dxc4. But still, if White so likes to, You are going to be attacked, like it or not.

Take a look at Lasker, Petrosian and Kortschnoj and develop some taste for defending. We are all prone to self-defeating propositions in terms of our development, I don't like this and I don't like that...But if you opponent likest it, you are going to be confronted anyway. The only measure is to be in a position where his/her attack is not going to succeed.




  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #6 - 06/09/07 at 13:30:24
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In second place, if dxc4 is good for Shirov, who have used it regularly, it could be good for anyone

Grin Every chess coach is telling one should play opening lines that fit to the own personal style. So what is good for Shirov might be very bad for somebody else.
Shirov is an intuitiv (or at least more intuitive than most of the top GMs) attacking player, my style is more or less the opposite of that.
The line 7...dxc4 8.Bxc4 e5 is a razor sharp variation, black has -no doubt- more solid possibilities against the shabalov. Shirov likes such variations, me not.
How to estimate this line objektivly is of course another question. From my experience in corr and freestyle chess I am quite sure that white's advantage is more than just academical. Ok, in OTB chess this might be not so relevant since the positions are very complex and the stronger player (in these kind of positions) will win.

Quote:
And in third place, it is abolsutely NORMAL for White to tretain a small advantage in most openings,

I must completely disagree with that statement. Most opening variations lead to complete equality (one of the exceptions might be some variations in the Najdorf where the position just stays dynamic and does not simplyfy, so unclear instaed of equal) if blacks chooses the best (or one of the best) variations. Of course I do not say that its always easy to find out (even not at home with the help of databases and engines) which is the best line for black for equality.

So my question is: Which is the best line (for equality ! ) against the shabalov ? Of course we can start debating now Smiley
7...Nxg4 8.Rg1 f5 is very solid, but it could be slightly better for white. 7...h6 is maybe the best move. I am not 100% sure, but so far I did not find any advantage for white.
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #5 - 06/09/07 at 11:57:02
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First, there is another game between the same players quoted, one that ended in a draw. In second place, if dxc4 is good for Shirov, who have used it regularly, it could be good for anyone. And in third place, it is abolsutely NORMAL for White to tretain a small advantage in most openings, the question is that this small edge be kept just "academical" in order for Black to draw. If you want something more secure and reliable, why don't try parchis...?  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #4 - 06/09/07 at 09:58:02
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Again, just 7...dxc4 (which is quite risky and also objektively better for white) is discussed in detail... Sad
Anyway, especially the first article is quite strange, a variation (actually a game Radjabov-Shirov) is recommended for black and then the author in his article writes:
Quote:
Radjavov could have secured a small and safe advantage after the solid (and better) 15.Bc3.


So he recommends a variation for black which is in his view better for white Grin

... and he just quotes games (yes, I have a big database myself Smiley ) instead of really analysing some variations.
  
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #3 - 06/08/07 at 14:38:54
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Re: Shabalov line
Reply #2 - 05/26/07 at 13:20:44
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So far I could see, only the main line 7....dxc4 8.Bxc4 e5 is discussed in this forum. After 8...e5 9.Bd2 and 9.g5 is possible for white. But thats not solid for black, even if black is very well prepared white gets attacking chances.
Other suggestions for black are very welcome....
  
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