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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Noteboom players and d4 Deviations.... (Read 5260 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #10 - 07/15/17 at 17:42:44
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Yeah I agree, it's a huge number of different openings to prepare for when you were just trying to get a better line against the London!  Not worth it.  But I wanted to point out that the move order recommended by Kaufman in The Chess Advantage in Black and White has an enormous flaw; he didn't consider the position following 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 at all, when Black can't get a Semi-Slav (4...c6 5.e3).  Many people seem unaware of this.
« Last Edit: 07/15/17 at 19:51:45 by ErictheRed »  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #9 - 07/15/17 at 14:20:43
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I actually find 4.g3 more annoying.  Who wants a Catalan when they set out to play the Noteboom?  But such is life.  Black can't force the Noteboom if White doesn't want to allow it.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #8 - 07/14/17 at 07:48:33
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Bg5 is another problem, when Black would need to be prepared to play a Queen's Gambit of some kind as well as all lines of the Semi Slav proper.  It would be a shame for a Noteboom player to be move ordered out of their favorite defense so easily as 2.Nf3 and 3.c4, but  if Black's willing to play all of those openings, then this would be an ideal solution.
« Last Edit: 07/14/17 at 16:52:29 by ErictheRed »  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #7 - 07/14/17 at 04:47:30
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If you want complexity, you can pair the Noteboom with the Semi-Slav.  It'll give you something to play against White's early e3 and solve the d4 Deviation problem.  1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6! keeping the light-squared bishop's diagonal open.  After 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 c6, you may even get an Anti-Moscow Gambit or Botvinnik out of it. Wink
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #6 - 07/12/17 at 03:46:06
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Thanks for the replies.  Both approaches seem viable to me although of course neither will equal the complexity of the Noteboom System.  Something we all have to live with in a variety of openings.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #5 - 07/11/17 at 20:09:20
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I would not say that Black has a space advantage in the ...e6, ...d5, ...c5 systems, at least not against the Colle-Zukertort when White can still play b2-b3, Bb2, and c2-c4.  Black may be fine, but his position isn't very inspiring (to me) and this is pretty much exactly what a Colle player is hoping for.  I'm a firm believer in not giving your opponent what he wants, and would rather play a Stonewall-type setup against the Colle (improved or normal), which Black can do with 2...c6. 

Against 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6 4.Qc1 Black doesn't have to be so meek.  He can try 4...Bg4!? 5.Ne5 Bf5 6.e3 f6, for instance.  I don't know what the current theoretical status of this is, but here's one game between two GMs from the pre-computer era:



There doesn't seem to be a great way for White to switch to playing c2-c4, for instance



That Shirov game was a Rapid, and there seems to be plenty of improvements available for both sides.  Anyway I'd have to do more homework, but something like that would be my solution if I needed more dynamic chances.
« Last Edit: 07/12/17 at 16:43:16 by ErictheRed »  
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mn
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #4 - 07/11/17 at 19:26:55
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Personally, I would just bite the bullet and play a ...d5, ...e6, ...c5 system. I think these positions have a lot more life than people give them credit for.

Regarding " Essentially, I see no reason why White should not be at least very slightly better in the London and Colle positions above (since in the Colle position he is up a tempo and in the London position he has developed his queen's bishop outside the pawn chain).":

Black has full equality because of his slight space advantage based on the move ...c5. If White doesn't do anything particularly ambitious, there are generally chances to break with ...e5, at which point, if anyone is better, it's Black.

That normally leaves the plan of playing Ne5 and f2-f4 (in the London and the Colle-Zukertort), which is a good and potentially lethal plan. That being said, it does abandon the e4 square, meaning that Black has good counterchances based around the idea of (assuming ...b6 and ...Bb7 has been played) going ...Ne7 followed by ...Ne4, planting the Knight in the hole, then, if possible, following up with ...f6, excevating White's Knight from e5.

Sure, it isn't the excitement of the Noteboom, but against a weaker opponent, I see no reason why Black shouldn't be able to aim to smoothly outplay White.

I'm not sure the previously suggested 2...c6 3 Bf4 Qb6 is likely to give Black anything more "dynamic". It looks interesting on the surface, but I think it just amounts to a slightly better for White, kind of stodgy position.

After something like 4 Qc1 Nf6 5 e3 Bf5, granted, if White is playing his "system" moves without looking up from the board, he has no hope for any plus at all, but the position cries out for 6 c4!, when eventually, c4-c5, b2-b4, and so on are likely to happen, and (at least personally) White looks far more comfortable.

All this being said, I fully admit pretty much all of the above comes down to personal preference  Grin
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #3 - 07/11/17 at 18:06:55
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Wow, blast from the past!  I personally stopped playing the Noteboom shortly after that post.  Though it was my main defense for a long time (I had that book by Van der Werf and Van der Vorm), it never really suited my strengths; I like more normal positions with central space, etc.  As I became stronger I moved on to other openings, though I'll still play it in Blitz occasionally.  Also, it seemed to lose its surprise value around when I made that original post (back then, no amateur White players really had anything prepared, at least not in the US).

So I don't really have a great solution to my original question.  Luckily, it's not as big of a problem as I originally felt, or at least I don't think so anymore--those positions are not quite as boring as I'd thought, and there is scope to outplay an opponent. 

I suggest playing 2...c6 as MNb recommended, and doing some homework on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6, as played by many strong players but especially Shirov.  3.e3 can be met in many ways, depending on whether you think that your opponent will play 4.c4.  Looking through my own games, I have only once had a player rated below 2200 play 2.Nf3 and follow up with c2-c4 in the next couple of moves.  In my experience, if a club player plays 2.Nf3, they really are playing a "system" opening and not using it as a transpositional tool. 

  
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #2 - 07/11/17 at 03:44:43
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/30/07 at 05:51:41:
The Noteboom was my main defence to 1.d4 for many years, and I'm considering playing it again after taking a break for a year or two.  I'm curious about how the Noteboom experts here recommend meeting 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3.

A little background: first, most of my opponents (at least 75%) are rated below 2200, and down here the London, Torre, Colle, Barry Attack, etc. are very popular; it's worth having a little something prepared for them.  Personally, I hate playing the Black side of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 (here or soon after), as well as the Black side of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 (again, here or soon after).  Essentially, I see no reason why White should not be at least very slightly better in the London and Colle positions above (since in the Colle position he is up a tempo and in the London position he has developed his queen's bishop outside the pawn chain).  More importantly, I find the above positions quite sterile and a bore to play as Black.  I own John Cox's Dealing with d4 Deviations, but the more I look at the above lines the more I realize I don't want to play them.  I much prefer 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 c5! and even 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 c5!? (or the safer 3...Bf5).  In these lines, Black seems to have better chances of fighting for the initiative.

Anyway, these options aren't available for someone trying to play a Noteboom after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3.  Sometimes when faced with 2.Nf3, I used to play 2...Nf6, gambling that White wasn't man enough to follow up with 3.c4.  But that's obviously not an ideal solution.  Playing into the London and Colle lines given above has always been a bit of a problem for me (those positions are certainly not the type of chess I'm after when I sit down hoping for a Noteboom).  That leaves two moves after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3: 2...e6 and 2...c6.

A few years ago I decided to play 2...e6, with the idea of meeting the Colle with a Stonewall setup: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 f5!?.  This brought me  a lot of success, as White is denied his normal types of positions and I generally like the Stonewall Dutch.  I wasn't able to find the same sort of solution for the London, though.  After giving it a lot of thought, I eventually settled on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6, when 4.Bxd6 Qxd6 (cxd6!?), while still a tad boring, is definitely a little more fun for Black than the standard 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 lines.  However, White could maybe just play it cool with 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6 4.Bg3, when I don't see that Black has anythin better than playing 4...Nf6 and eventually transposing to an ultra-boring position from the "normal" London (as seen in Cox's book).

So this has got me thinking....would 2...c6 be better for a Noteboom player?  I could still play a Stonewall vs. the Colle (or even just 3...Bf5), and I might have more interesting options against the London.  I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6!? (or 3...Nf6 4.e3 Qb6!?) might be good, though Black doesn't really put pressure on the d4 pawn like he would if the c-pawn were on c5 instead of c6.  Alternatively, something like 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 would probably be a lot more fun for Black than the 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 lines.  I guess White could play 4.c3 to be annoying, though.

Thoughts??  How should a Noteboom player seek to mix it up after 2.Nf3?  Also, I'm sorry for posting so much on such a simple question!


I was thinking of adding this to my repertoire and starting pondering the "boring position" problem.  Did you ever decide on an option?
  
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MNb
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Re: Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
Reply #1 - 05/30/07 at 21:24:20
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The ambitious Black player tries to get a Stonewall with the queen's bishop outside the pawn chain: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 intending 4...f5. Once I lost a corr game after 4.Be2 e6 5.Nbd2 Bd6 6.c4. This probably only proves, how little I understand of chess. Still I believe, that 2...c6 solves the Colle "problem" for the Noteboom player.
Unfortunetaly 3...Bg4 does not look good against the London., even though Tromp expert Hodgson played it once. As White has not played c2-c3 yet, 3.Bf4 Qb6 avoiding the typical answer x.Qb3 might be good. I don't like 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 too much. White can try 5.Nbd2, leaving the choice between c2-c3 and c2-c4 open. Moreover he sometimes can play 6.h3 evt. 7.g4. After 3...Bf5 I see, that Black often still throws ...Qb6 in.
So my conclusion is, that 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6 and 4...Bf5 suits the Noteboom player best. An example is 4.b3 Bf5 5.e3 Nd7 6.Nh4?! Be4 7.f3 Bg6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.c4 dxc4 10.Bxc4 e5! Usov-Burmakin, Kstovo 1997.
  

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ErictheRed
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Noteboom players and d4 Deviations....
05/30/07 at 05:51:41
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The Noteboom was my main defence to 1.d4 for many years, and I'm considering playing it again after taking a break for a year or two.  I'm curious about how the Noteboom experts here recommend meeting 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3.

A little background: first, most of my opponents (at least 75%) are rated below 2200, and down here the London, Torre, Colle, Barry Attack, etc. are very popular; it's worth having a little something prepared for them.  Personally, I hate playing the Black side of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 (here or soon after), as well as the Black side of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 (again, here or soon after).  Essentially, I see no reason why White should not be at least very slightly better in the London and Colle positions above (since in the Colle position he is up a tempo and in the London position he has developed his queen's bishop outside the pawn chain).  More importantly, I find the above positions quite sterile and a bore to play as Black.  I own John Cox's Dealing with d4 Deviations, but the more I look at the above lines the more I realize I don't want to play them.  I much prefer 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 c5! and even 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 c5!? (or the safer 3...Bf5).  In these lines, Black seems to have better chances of fighting for the initiative.

Anyway, these options aren't available for someone trying to play a Noteboom after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3.  Sometimes when faced with 2.Nf3, I used to play 2...Nf6, gambling that White wasn't man enough to follow up with 3.c4.  But that's obviously not an ideal solution.  Playing into the London and Colle lines given above has always been a bit of a problem for me (those positions are certainly not the type of chess I'm after when I sit down hoping for a Noteboom).  That leaves two moves after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3: 2...e6 and 2...c6.

A few years ago I decided to play 2...e6, with the idea of meeting the Colle with a Stonewall setup: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 f5!?.  This brought me  a lot of success, as White is denied his normal types of positions and I generally like the Stonewall Dutch.  I wasn't able to find the same sort of solution for the London, though.  After giving it a lot of thought, I eventually settled on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6, when 4.Bxd6 Qxd6 (cxd6!?), while still a tad boring, is definitely a little more fun for Black than the standard 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 lines.  However, White could maybe just play it cool with 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6 4.Bg3, when I don't see that Black has anythin better than playing 4...Nf6 and eventually transposing to an ultra-boring position from the "normal" London (as seen in Cox's book).

So this has got me thinking....would 2...c6 be better for a Noteboom player?  I could still play a Stonewall vs. the Colle (or even just 3...Bf5), and I might have more interesting options against the London.  I haven't given it a great deal of thought, but 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6!? (or 3...Nf6 4.e3 Qb6!?) might be good, though Black doesn't really put pressure on the d4 pawn like he would if the c-pawn were on c5 instead of c6.  Alternatively, something like 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Bg4 would probably be a lot more fun for Black than the 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 d5 lines.  I guess White could play 4.c3 to be annoying, though.

Thoughts??  How should a Noteboom player seek to mix it up after 2.Nf3?  Also, I'm sorry for posting so much on such a simple question!
  
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