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Normal Topic Bishop's Gambit idea (Read 3629 times)
Markovich
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Re: Bishop's Gambit idea
Reply #5 - 06/06/07 at 16:40:45
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urusov wrote on 06/06/07 at 14:34:27:
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6(! - agreed)


Barfaroonie.  2...Nf6! sez I.
  

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urusov
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Re: Bishop's Gambit idea
Reply #4 - 06/06/07 at 14:34:27
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MNb wrote on 06/04/07 at 01:52:31:
The last post gives me the opportunity to post an email I have never send:

Dear Urusov,

it is with great interest, that I take notice of your recommendations in the Bishop's Opening. There are two reasons for it: the Bishop's Gambit suffers somewhat of 3.Bc4 Nc6! and I would also very much like to play the Muzio.
Alas you don't offer all relevant games on your site...."



Dear MNb --
Thanks for the games and info.  I have not updated the site in a number of years, but your notes and games give me some encouragement to do so...  Truth be told, I have switched in my own play from the King's Gambit related lines discussed on the site to more of a Giuoco Piano transposition following 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6(! - agreed) 3.Nf3(! - I think).  The advantage, then, of the Bishop's Opening is that it becomes a transposition tool that avoids some stuff, including the Petroff.

MG
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Bishop's Gambit idea
Reply #3 - 06/04/07 at 12:32:19
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Markovich wrote on 06/02/07 at 17:22:08:
1. e4 e5  2. f4 exf4  3. Bc4 Nc6  4. d4 (if this is not the right move then the Bishop's Gambit is pointless) 4...Nf6  5. Nc3 Bb4 (5...Nxe4 6. Qe2 fine for White) 6. Ne2 Nxe4  7. 0-0 Bxc3 (7...Nxc3 8. bxc3 d5  9. bxb4 dxc4  10. Nxf4 Qxd4+  11. Qxd4 Nxd4  12. Bb2)  8. Nxc3 Nxc3 (8...0-0  9. Nd5) 9. Qe1+ Ne7 and now I wonder if 10. Bxf7+!?, in the Romantic fashion, is any good.  10...Kxf7  11. Bxf4 and now 11...Nf5 appears to be necessary.  Here 12. Qxc3 d6!  13. g4 looks quite lame to me, but White can try instead 12. Bxc7 Qg5 (equally after 12...Qf6) 13. Qxc3.  In either case, Black's defense is not all that simple.  I analyzed 12...Qg5  13. Qxc3 d5  14. Qb3 (14. Rae1, 14. Bf4) 14...Re8  15. Qxd5+ Be6  (15...Kg6  16. Rf2 is good for White)  16. Qxb7 Kg8  17. Bf4 Qd8  18. c3 Bd5  19. Qb5 and I think Black's knight and initiative are superior to White's three pawns.

Going back to where 10. Bxf7+ was played, White also had 10. Qxc3, but 10...d5 and I am not sure where to put the bishop, or whether White has full compensation for his pawn in any case.  Best perhaps is 10. bxc3 d5  11. Bd3 0-0  12. Bxf4 Ng6  13. Bd2 or 13. Bg3 with perhaps almost sufficient compensation for his pawn. 

Does 3...Nc6 refute the Bishop's Gambit? 



Well, as I've said before when discussing Duras' 3...Nc6, it could be worthwhile if we had some high level tests of the critical lines. But so far almost no one goes there.

In your analysis above I'd still prefer 9.bxc3 over your 9.Qe1+ - unless the ending with 3 pawns for a minor can be shown to be good, as otherwise white has burned his bridges i.e. 10.bxc3 and the Q is malplaced on e1.

Anyway, 3-Nc6 can hardly be a refutation as it contains a bunch of forced draws if white wants to allow them. This is probably also why it's so rare in practice especially since black needs to know the Hanstein just in case. And even in GM practice 3.Nf3 g5 is not the most common defence anymore - especially since the Rosentreter seems to be gaining in popularity even among 2500 GMs.



Btw, the only potentially important game since the FKG came out in Jan 2005, is imo Tiller-Kennaugh 4NCL 2007. (Unless there are some recent corr games with 3...Nc6 - if so please post them!)


Tiller,B (2371) - Kennaugh,C (2287) [C33]
4NCL 2006-07 Coventry ENG (5), 13.01.2007

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Bxf4 In the FKG I preferred 7.Nf3 with rough equality, as the text involves the customary exchange sac in the Duras, and since white's Bb5 can no longer occasionally catch the Q with Bxd5 I considered black -/+ or -+ already.

I've got the impression Björn Tiller is a strong well prepared player so has he found something after Qxh1 - or did he just forget about 7...Qh4+ ?  Undecided

after 7...Qh4+ 8.g3 Nxg3 9.Bxg3 Qe4+ I've looked at little at 10.Kf2 Qxh1 / 10.Be2 Qxh1 11.Kf2 Qe4 12.Nf3 / 10.Qe2 Qxh1 11.Kf2 but all seem to run dry when Fritz gets going... - any ideas folks?
  
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MNb
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Re: Bishop's Gambit idea
Reply #2 - 06/04/07 at 01:52:31
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The last post gives me the opportunity to post an email I have never send:

Dear Urusov,

it is with great interest, that I take notice of your recommendations in the Bishop's Opening. There are two reasons for it: the Bishop's Gambit suffers somewhat of 3.Bc4 Nc6! and I would also very much like to play the Muzio.
Alas you don't offer all relevant games on your site.

Kremer,H - Hesselbarth,K [C38]
corr DEUch qgC29 939, 1993
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4 h6 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 Bg7 7.c3 Nc6 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Qe7 10.Qxb7 Rb8 11.Qa6 Nf6 12.d5 Nd8 13.Qxa7 Rb7 14.Qd4 0-0 15.Nbd2 g4 16.Ne1 Nh5 17.Qd3 f5 18.Nc2 Nf7 19.exf5 Ne5 20.Qe2 Bxf5 21.Nd4 Bg6 [much stronger than Bd7?] 22.Nc6 [22.Ne6 f3 and Black has a dangerous attack] 22...Qh4 23.Ba6 Rb6 24.Nxe5 Bxe5 25.Bc4 f3 26.gxf3 Nf4 27.Qe1 Nh3+ 28.Kh1 g3 29.Ne4 Rxf3 0-1

Armbrust,F (2205) - Netzer,J (2370) [C38]
Schwarzacher Open-19 (7.14), 2004
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.Bc4 h6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.c3 Nc6 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 10.Bxf7+ Kf8 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 c5 [and not the silly Ke8?] 13.Qa3 cxd4 14.Qxd6 dxc3 15.Qd5+ Kg6 16.Nxc3 Qb6+ 17.Kh1 Be6 18.Qd3 Rd8 19.Qc2 Qa6 20.Bxf4 gxf4 21.Nh4+ Kh7 22.Nd5 Be5 23.Nf3 Qd6 24.Rad1 Qb8 25.Nxe5 Qxe5 26.Rxf4 Ne7 27.Rdf1 Ng6 28.Rf5 Rhf8 29.Nf6+ Rxf6 30.Rxf6 Rd7 31.Qf2 Bc4 32.Re1 Bxa2 33.Rf5 Qg7 34.Qxa7 Be6 35.Rf2 Ne5 36.Qa3 Nd3 0-1

Rudolf Spielmann being my hero, I am very familiar with the famous Grünfeld games. Calling 8...Bh3 equal is very premature, considering the following game:

Nokes,R - Sarapu,O (2330) [C38]
NZDch Auckland (5), 1979
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4 h6 5.d4 g5 6.0-0 Bg7 7.c3 Nc6 8.g3 Bh3 9.gxf4 Bxf1 10.Qxf1 Qd7 11.fxg5 0-0-0 12.Nbd2 Kb8 13.Qg2 hxg5 14.Nxg5 Nh6 15.Ndf3 Rdg8 16.Kh1 Na5 17.Bf1 f6 18.Nh3 Ng4 19.Qe2 d5 20.Bf4 dxe4 21.Qxe4 Rxh3 22.Bxh3 Nf2+ 23.Kg2 Nxh3 24.Bg3 Re8 0-1

Though I find your attempts to rehabilitate the Hanstein very sympathetic, I do not find them convincing yet - alas. Finally I have to remark, that your treatment of the Greco-Philidor suffers from similar flaws.
Chess Greetings.



So I agree with Markovich, that 4.d4 must be the move. I am not that afraid of the Schallopp and the Cunningham, that 3.Nf3 must be avoided. I am not even that afraid of Markovich' beloved Modern (3...d5 or 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4), that I would prefer the move order via the Bishop's Opening.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Ne2 Nxe4 7.0-0 Nxc3 8.bxc3 d5 9.Bxb4 dxc4 10.Nxf4 Qxd4+ 11.Qxd4 Nxd4 12.Bb2 does not look good to me after Nxc2 13.Bxg7 Rg8. A better try seems 10.b5 Ne7 11.Bxf4 Bg4 12.Qd2 and evt. 13.Rae1 with rapid development.
In that piece sac line (10.Bxf7+) the suggestion 14.Bf4 looks strongest to me. The point is of course, that White keeps g2-g4 in store.

Concerning your final question, I must refer you to the Fascinating King's Gambit. You will not be surprised, that Johansson's answer is no - supported by 8 pages of analysis. But from his book it also becomes clear, that 3...Nc6 provides Black with a good defense, which perfectly will suit those, who prefer to meet 3.Nf3 with g5.

  

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urusov
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Re: Bishop's Gambit idea
Reply #1 - 06/03/07 at 23:01:48
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I have analyzed this somewhat via the move order 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nc6!? 3.f4!? exf4 when I had only considered 4.Nf3, which seems perfectly playable.
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/bishops/nc6.htm#b1c
I have not yet gotten Thomas Johansson's "Fascinating King's Gambit" to see what he offers.  No doubt you have seen his book.  I doubt he'd allow the nameless ...Nc6 to spoil White's fun.

I do rather like 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nc6 for Black--which can transpose:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2007/03/adelaide-counter-gambit...
  
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Markovich
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Bishop's Gambit idea
06/02/07 at 17:22:08
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1. e4 e5  2. f4 exf4  3. Bc4 Nc6  4. d4 (if this is not the right move then the Bishop's Gambit is pointless) 4...Nf6  5. Nc3 Bb4 (5...Nxe4 6. Qe2 fine for White) 6. Ne2 Nxe4  7. 0-0 Bxc3 (7...Nxc3 8. bxc3 d5  9. bxb4 dxc4  10. Nxf4 Qxd4+  11. Qxd4 Nxd4  12. Bb2)  8. Nxc3 Nxc3 (8...0-0  9. Nd5) 9. Qe1+ Ne7 and now I wonder if 10. Bxf7+!?, in the Romantic fashion, is any good.  10...Kxf7  11. Bxf4 and now 11...Nf5 appears to be necessary.  Here 12. Qxc3 d6!  13. g4 looks quite lame to me, but White can try instead 12. Bxc7 Qg5 (equally after 12...Qf6) 13. Qxc3.  In either case, Black's defense is not all that simple.  I analyzed 12...Qg5  13. Qxc3 d5  14. Qb3 (14. Rae1, 14. Bf4) 14...Re8  15. Qxd5+ Be6  (15...Kg6  16. Rf2 is good for White)  16. Qxb7 Kg8  17. Bf4 Qd8  18. c3 Bd5  19. Qb5 and I think Black's knight and initiative are superior to White's three pawns.

Going back to where 10. Bxf7+ was played, White also had 10. Qxc3, but 10...d5 and I am not sure where to put the bishop, or whether White has full compensation for his pawn in any case.  Best perhaps is 10. bxc3 d5  11. Bd3 0-0  12. Bxf4 Ng6  13. Bd2 or 13. Bg3 with perhaps almost sufficient compensation for his pawn. 

Does 3...Nc6 refute the Bishop's Gambit?
« Last Edit: 06/02/07 at 20:59:03 by Markovich »  

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