Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C18: An interesting new move in the Winawer (Read 8166 times)
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2113
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #14 - 06/20/07 at 09:59:26
Post Tools
In fact Khalifman is pretty kind about 8 .. f5 in comparison to Nc6. 

It's also worth looking at the March 2007 informator column from Chesscafe which features a couple of truly painful white wins in the 11.. Nce7 lines which postdate the Khalifman books as well as a short theory table.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 445
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #13 - 06/19/07 at 13:11:20
Post Tools
Hello,

The last chapter is about 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.Qg4 0-0 8.Bd3 Nbc6 
9.Qh5 Ng6 10.Nf3 Qc7 11.Be3 

which sort of implies that Khalifman thinks this is the best line for black. Also covers for example the line in your article, although I doubt that  it mentions 12 ...e5, I haven't done a detailed comparision between the article and book yet. Don't know much more detail than that at the  moment.

Bye John S

p.s 

have just found from a pdf from chess stars site

Part 5.
4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 0-0 8.Bd3
14 various without 8...f5 and 8...Nbc6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 198
15 8...f5 9.exf6 Rxf6 10.Bg5 various; 10...Rf7 11.Qh5 h6 . . . . . . 215
16 8...f5 9.exf6 Rxf6 10.Bg5 Rf7 11.Qh5 g6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 224
17 8...Nbc6 9.Qh5 various; 9...Ng6 10.Nf3 various;
   10...Qc7 11.Be3 without 11...c4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 243
18 8...Nbc6 9.Qh5 Ng6 10.Nf3 Qc7 11.Be3 c4 12.Bxg6 fxg6
   13.Qg4 without 13...Bd7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 258
19 8...Nbc6 9.Qh5 Ng6 10.Nf3 Qc7 11.Be3 c4 12.Bxg6 fxg6
   13.Qg4 Bd7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 269
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #12 - 06/19/07 at 12:51:13
Post Tools
Hi John S:

Could you share with us WHAT DOES kHALIFMAN reccomend according to Anand against this O-O line in the French Winawer???? Roll Eyes 
Best wishes
KJ
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 445
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #11 - 06/18/07 at 11:23:57
Post Tools
Hello MartinC,

You are quite right, I would have been another customer who would not have known the critical lines after 7...0.0. It's quite strange really because black clearly has more resources compared to say 7...Qc7 , where black usually plays o.o and f5 later anyway. ( The lines Dom posted earlier, can quite easily be improved for white I think, he is one of the best frenchie poster's so I think it says something about the line for black). For sometime I thought that the "Anand" series of books were a bit over the top for my level of play. However the "Anand 7" one seems to have some particularly dangerous lines for black to face, so am gradually absorbing into Rep.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2113
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #10 - 06/13/07 at 09:29:11
Post Tools
You can certainly tell that club players (in the UK at least) don't normally play 7 .. o-o -> I must have played it over ten times over the past two years in the UK against players around 160/170 bcf and I haven't even reached the critical position after 8 Bd3 Nbc6 9 Qh5 once yet(!). Indeed even 8 Bd3 has been quite rare - things like 8 h4 seem to have an odd attraction. (8 Bd2 was hardest to explain.).
 
As a result of this I've been scoring almost unfairly well - and franky feeling rather guilty at times. Have to look on it as a mission to educate or something I guess - it has been the main line for quite a while now after all.

Unless white does go 8 Bd3 then 9 Qh5 (or 9 Bg5) it's really quite a fun line for black to play. Finding something fully playable after 9 Qh5 is pretty tough of course if perhaps just about possible. Or 8..f5 after Bd3 which I suppose will always be all right.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #9 - 06/12/07 at 21:45:33
Post Tools
Hi Markovich, O-O has a history. I used to play a lot the Winawer, in fact, exclusively against Nc3 (today I rather prefer  the Nf6 variation) But the disappeared when the Qg4 line (Fischer's favorite, the positional Nf3 never scared me although I used it with White) began scoring hard (particularly in Correspondence chess, OTB it is perhaps still playable, but in distant chess...it is very dangerous)
Therefore, O-O is a kind of necessary evil for Winawer players lately... To be honest, I don't particularly like those positions, though I have played it, as in the following example, from some years ago...

IECG
[Event "Q1.2000.0.00110"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Popovic, Antonije"]
[Black "Monasterio, Manuel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C18"]



1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 O-O 8. Bd3
Qa5 9. Bd2 Nbc6 10. Nf3 f5 11. exf6 Rxf6 12. Qh5 Nf5 13. c4 Qa4 14. cxd5 Ncxd4
15. O-O exd5 16. Nxd4 Qxd4 17. Rad1 Rf7 18. Rfe1 Bd7 19. Be3 Qc3 20. Bd2 Qf6
21. Bg5 Qd6 22. c4 d4 23. Re4 Raf8 24. Rde1 Qa6 25. Bc1 b5 26. cxb5 Bxb5 27.
Re6 Qa5 28. Bxb5 Qxb5 29. R6e5 Qc6 30. a4 Qxa4 0-1



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #8 - 06/12/07 at 20:14:07
Post Tools
MarinFan wrote on 06/12/07 at 18:49:28:
Hello, 

I should be interested in this , if no other reason that I could face it has white. However, club players at my level are somehow not very attracted to the o.o line. Will try having a look at the ideas though...

Bye John S


Notwithstanding the merits of Black's concept, the expression "castling into it" does spring to mind.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 445
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #7 - 06/12/07 at 18:49:28
Post Tools
Hello, 

I should be interested in this , if no other reason that I could face it has white. However, club players at my level are somehow not very attracted to the o.o line. Will try having a look at the ideas though...

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #6 - 06/11/07 at 21:54:33
Post Tools
Yes, wait and see ! ... difficult to make an assessment quickly.
Now I'll try to improve with my comp. help: maybe Bf1 is more precise than Be2, because if f5 doesn't work, then black knight will land on e3 soon in the game and square e2 is needed for Ke2!

14...c4 15.Bf1! Qb6 16.Rb1 (to play Qd2 without being annoyed by Qb2) Qc5 17.Qd2 Nf5 18.Nf3 Ne3 19.a4 a6 20.Ke2!

now i must leave analysis because it's Cindirella time in France and I will transform to low rated player next five minutes
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #5 - 06/11/07 at 21:30:00
Post Tools
Yes, indeed, it is VERY unclear, which brings us again to the title :"interesting new line". But only you and me are on this issue, it seems that nobody sees this line as "interesting" enough, I just don't understand... Shocked
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #4 - 06/11/07 at 20:55:38
Post Tools
OK ... variation to analyze deeper (I need more time ... ?! days? months?)
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #3 - 06/11/07 at 19:19:03
Post Tools
I understand that my variation stand the test, tehrefore, e5 remains unrefuted so far
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #2 - 06/09/07 at 18:02:28
Post Tools
OK, you have a point in the concept, as the author states, he was not confident of his decision of taking out the Bishop of the c1-h6 diagonal, BUT, there may be a hole in your analysis, as things are not that clear after 14...c4 15.Be2 Qb6 16.Qd2 Nf5!? 17.g4 Ne3!? 18.f5 Nxg4!!? And we are in a very tricky, extremely unclear position. Black seems to have enough compensation to make White's life unhappy.
I do feel that the variation "cannot" be right, but Mr.Myers has done some homework here. What do you think? 


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: An interesting new move in the Winawer
Reply #1 - 06/09/07 at 17:02:28
Post Tools
Yes interesting move  Tongue  .. and so easy to do mistake while trying to hold the gambit pawn on e5..BUT...what to do as Black if White covers quickly dark squares (eg: e3) ?

12...e5??!? 13.dxe5 Nbc6 14.f4! and now White has only to do moves to keep diagonal b6-g1 under control

14...c4 (14...Qb6 15.Rb1 Qa5 16.Qd2 Qxa3 17.Nf3 c4 18.Be2 White is better to space advantage in center and a pawn more for a center-kingside attack and weak dark squares or Black) 15.Be2 Qb6 16.Qd2 Qc5 (16...Nf5 17.g4 Ne3? 18.f5 the point for not moving Bg5 in the beginning) 17.Bh4 with Bf2 and a strong point in d4
 
Qd2 is useful as in that other line where Black tried e5: 12..Qc7 13.Nf3 Nbc6 14.oo e5? (14...c4!) 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 17.Qd2 Bd7 18.Rfe1 Qd6 19.Bc4! Bc6 19.Bxe7 Rxe7 21.Rxe7 Qxe7 22.Bxd5+ Oll-Bruyneels,Anvers 1993 (Hazai and NiC YB 35)

No need to say e5 is a logical and good move in many other lines of the oo-Winawer: 12..c4 13.Be2 Nbc6 14.Nf3 Qa5 15. Bd2 (15.Qd2 Nf5 16.Ne5 Nxe5 17.dxe5 d4!) Qc7 16.Bh6 e5! 17.dxe5 Nxe5 18.Ng5 Rf6 19.Qd4 Qd6 20.Rd1 Bf5 

and I like playing Qa5+c4 while White's king is stuck in center: 16.oo Nf5 17.Re1 (17.Ng5!? Rf6 Dom) Bd7 18.Bf1 Nd6 19.Ng5 Rf6 20.Qg4?! Raf8 21.Qh4 Bc8 22.g4 Rxf2 23.Qxf2?! Rxf2 24.Kxf2 h6 25.Nf3 Ne4+ 26.Kg1 Nxd2 27.Nxd2 Qf4 28.Rad1 e5! 29.dxe5 Bxg4 30.Be2 Qe3+ 0-1 Carton-Laurain, 1rst french League 2000   
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Klaus Junge
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 07/11/06
C18: An interesting new move in the Winawer
06/08/07 at 14:14:35
Post Tools
Hi There is an article about an interesting new move at the Winawer O-O line at
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/Amazing_new_move_in_French_Def.html
What do you think?
Is it possible and viable?
It seems, so far...
KJ Shocked
« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 14:44:50 by dom »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo