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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin (Read 42538 times)
MNb
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #80 - 11/24/07 at 21:07:31
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HgMan wrote on 11/24/07 at 19:07:14:
I think you might be talking past each other a little.

Maybe because TN focuses his instinct too much on his navel? That also explains why it took him so many weeks to formulate his reaction.  Roll Eyes Nice to read though, that one of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century produced "lofty intellectual krap". Or had he this in mind?

TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
The way suggested by your Karl Popper quote often leads to chess paralysis, and hampers an aspiring players' chess development. This malady tends to afflict adult players moreso than junior ones in my observation.

Anyhow, TN's last post proves that this debate becomes tedious.  Lips Sealed
  

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HgMan
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #79 - 11/24/07 at 19:07:14
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I think you might be talking past each other a little.  Instinct is important, yes, but not in situations in which a particular move has been proven to be bad.  Instinct is critical to creativity--I don't think MNb or his hero Spielmann would disagree with that--but research and analysis are also useful tools...
  

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TopNotch
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #78 - 11/24/07 at 02:42:21
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 21:21:48:
[quote]
Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.


Such theoretical musing only serves to paralyse the thought process of an aspiring chessplayer and to my mind amounts to no more than the intellectual equivalent of contemplating ones navel. As I have said some time back in a related thread, such sophism as 'instinct also diminishes logic' is one of the major undermining reasons why adults often find chess improvement so difficult and kids excel so readily. Kids simply don't get bogged down with all this lofty intellectual krap and maybe we all could learn a thing or two from such an un-encumbered approach.

Tops Smiley
  

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HgMan
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #77 - 11/24/07 at 01:31:22
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 21:21:48:
TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
Chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very health approach for aspiring chessplayers.


Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.


Actually, Popper was no scientist at all, but rather a philosopher of science.  MNb's reference to his theory of falsifiability is rather apt: an opening line is good until proven otherwise...
  

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TopNotch
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #76 - 09/19/07 at 06:44:58
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Quote:
I probably will buy the second volume, because there is quite a bit of interesting material there. But as you can see in the previous thread on Marin's book, I do share the critisism.

(1) There are simply to much variations untouched, to use it as a basis for my repertoire. I had an unfortunate experience in the Spanish Exchange where a natural and strong unmetnioned alternative at move 9 has left all the other analysis superfluous. It's a correspondence game, and I have
to werk very hard to keep a draw.


So has this mysterious unmentioned alternative been revealed as yet, or am I too late?

Toppy Smiley

Postscript: I'm betting its 9.Nc4
  

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MNb
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #75 - 09/10/07 at 21:21:48
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TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
Chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very health approach for aspiring chessplayers.


Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TopNotch
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #74 - 09/10/07 at 20:56:04
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:35:45:
Every hypothesis derived by logic and reason has to be verified/falsified in practice.  Wink (Kudos to Karl Popper).


This seems like a scientific quote, but chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination of having to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very healthy approach for aspiring chessplayers.

The way suggested by your Karl Popper quote often leads to chess paralysis, and hampers an aspiring players' chess development. This malady tends to afflict adult players moreso than junior ones in my observation.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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MNb
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #73 - 09/10/07 at 20:35:45
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Every hypothesis derived by logic and reason has to be verified/falsified in practice.  Wink (Kudos to Karl Popper).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TopNotch
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #72 - 09/10/07 at 20:31:25
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 12:41:54:
I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs, as in chess, politics, physics, sports, etc...Saying I need to spend money to criticize an author's choices is ...well not the best rebuttal.

The fact is, these books are let downs and some people don't want to face that.

Quote:
Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0  
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..


I have no doubt that the plan occurs in classic games. I also have no doubt the plan sucks.

I always look at recent games of 2400+ to see what they're playing and how they're doing in certain lines. I can see if there are any similarities. Postny doesn't follow the plan at all, while most of the rest do play f6, some f5 like Postny, and a few find their own way. There certainly does seem to be a lot of international-level players puting their knight on g7 and f7. I just wasn't HONESTLY aware that was the plan. I wasn't saying 'Oh Really?" to be sarcastic, I was being honest. I can't believe that's the plan. It also is occurring less in recent games.  I dunno..to me seems like positional play through process of elimination (the knight's doing more on d7 as in a Breyer thsan on f7). However, I agree with you that this is the standard plan in this variation. It just doesn't impress me.


I just don't think this opening choice is anything other than third rate.

In anycase my point is that the plan isn't a shining example of efficiency or much of a winning attempt. The score for this (on Chesslab and my Chessbase) isn't great, either.

And as you can clearly see, the plan with a4 and b4 nullfies any advantage on the queenside black may think he has.


Some times old lines are good, sometimes not. If people aren't playing something, the question is "Why not?'



Quote:
"...counting pages?"


Book reviewers do this all the time, even on the quick. Neither Watson nor Hansen read every page of every book they encounter, and reasoned coverage is an issue. I think it's relevant that he chooses to spend more pulp on the evil of two lessers.

Quote:
Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read...


I've talked about Houska, and Sverre's, both of which I own and read. I don't need to read a book to criticize an author's chosen focus, since the variations are readily available (and stats). I can also see how easy it would be for the good club player to outplay a slightly lower rated opponent in this opening, or outplay a higher one.  The former is possible if the lower rated doesn't know the plan, but the latter would be difficult indeed. Plus, there's nothing really on the queenside, and the Kingside often comes under fire ( I don't believe in this fortress thing).

You guys are over looking the obvious anyway: I started off by saying that this book cannot teach us about the Ruy Lopez, just about the plans within the chosen subset, and here we are proving it. The usual ideas in the closed do not involve Nf7, and f6. That's what the ideas are in the Rubenstein, but what about the ideas in the cxd4 variation, which bears more in common with other Spanish types like Adams-Ivanchuk Lucerne '89 or Svidler-Shirov Tal Memorial 2006.  These are the kind of games I think of when I think of the Ruy Lopez, or the games from both Fischer-Spassky matches.

I guess I was wrong when I thought that I thought this f6 and Ng7 business wasn't standard, but hey...it still isn't proper Lopez practice to me and definitely is not something to write home about. I still think it would have been better to focus on Bd7 or cxd4...



Some very interesting insights, but  I ordered the book any way Embarrassed

"I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs" I like this quote very much, and it can be applied to Openings and Opening variations as well, i.e. one can often detect using logic and reason that something is fundamentally suspect even before it has been proven. Those familiar with many of my older posts on the forum, especially the 1.e4 e5 section, will know exactly what I'm driving at here.  Wink

Toppy  Smiley
  

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TopNotch
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #71 - 09/10/07 at 20:04:47
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Mortal Games wrote on 06/11/07 at 12:12:48:
The second book of Marin to complete the repertoire for Black against 1...e5 is out soon.
I think this book and The Ruy Lopez a Guide for Black from Sverre are the best books on the Spanish available on 2007.


Maybe the best in 2007, but what do you think about Greet's effort in 2006?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #70 - 08/19/07 at 00:09:06
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Truly a very good book (regarding quality) . But as I have written before regarding Marins openingbooks is that they are too messy. I want an opening book to be crystal clear in its structure. This book and the other book " Beat the open games" are not books with a clear structure.

A book should be easy to follow. The book concists of a lot of diagrams and excerpts from games. I like to see a game or variation from the beginning to the end. I dont like "Marins way". In an other thread I compared "Beat the open games" with John Emms book "Play the open games". I dont claim Emms repertoire is better but the book is crystal clear in its structure. Its very easy to find what you look for in Emms book.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #69 - 08/17/07 at 16:36:19
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Many thanks Paddy / ghengisclown,
       It is there, I just hadn't got to it yet. I agree that the type of position that 13.d5 creates gives you pause for thought as Black. However, it may still be attractive due to Marin's vivid description. I think it probably deserves a try, particularly as you say, at club level.
All the best !
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #68 - 08/16/07 at 10:52:31
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I was looking at d5 after the knight returns to c6 in the so-called Rubenstein variation. So actually it's 13.d5 I'm talking about. After that the Knight goes either to d8 or a7.

Subjectively, I don't like this. Objectively, such moves can succeed in blocked positions. But it depends how blocked things are and where the pawn breaks are.

It's funny, I like the Czech Benoni, but not this. I'd rather prefer that in playing the knight  backwards, and then putting it on f7 (and the other on g7) that black get f5 in rather than go for the h7-g6-f6 pawn chain that if memory serves Markovich called a "fortress." In addition, black is very flexible in the Czech, as he is able to threaten Queenside activity as well (like a6 with b5 as a threat, or perhaps played later on). Here, that happens so early white is able to deal with it effectively with a4 and b4.

Actually it might be better to play 11...Nc6 for black!

Of course, in club play these considerations might not matter so much. I also am warming up to Marin's other idea of Petrosian's 12.`...Bd7 but this hardly seems like a winning attempt, just a safe system.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #67 - 08/15/07 at 20:54:06
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Laramonet wrote on 08/15/07 at 18:44:26:
"the area(s) of the early d5 push for white" was mentioned by Genghisclown in an earlier comment. I have to admit I wasn't aware that such lines were being played; I'm assuming we're talking about 12.d5 instead of 12.Nbd2. However, Marin doesn't mention this line.


Yes he does, but it's not easy to find. He considers it by transposition in the Petrosian System chapter starting at the bottom of page 113.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #66 - 08/15/07 at 18:44:26
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"the area(s) of the early d5 push for white" was mentioned by Genghisclown in an earlier comment. I have to admit I wasn't aware that such lines were being played; I'm assuming we're talking about 12.d5 instead of 12.Nbd2. However, Marin doesn't mention this line. Does anyone know the latest position ? Is it deemed a "hot topic" or has it been deserted at high level ?
Having recently received my copy of Marin's book, I must say I'm enjoying it immensely. I played the Rubinstein line he describes more than twenty years ago a little. It's rekindled my interest to read such a logical and instructive work on this. I've only got this far in the book but thus far, I'd recommend it.
  
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