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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin (Read 54289 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #35 - 07/17/07 at 22:22:36
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asmund wrote on 07/17/07 at 19:51:49:
I would not advice fellow GM authors to criticize other authors in such a sarcastic way.

You're not a fellow GM, or if you are I've never heard of you.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #34 - 07/17/07 at 21:35:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 06:10:10:
He defended his book on his blog by trying to say that a study of it would improve one's ability in the Spanish game/chess. I think that's nonsense. Nobody studies the Najdorf's lines to learn chess, but to learn the Najdorf, period. How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?


Your I-dare-anyone-to-teach-me-anything argumentation here really seems rather sophomoric to me.

You are missing the point of Marin's 1...e5 project.  It says right on the back cover (of the general 1...e5 book, anyway; I don't have the Spanish one yet) that this is a middle-game work under the cloak of an openings work.  Your last sentence above completely prejudges the argument.  There is nothing "highly theoretical" about the lines that Marin recommends, and he goes out of his way to say that he's chosen the more theoretically stable lines just because it's easier to know "chess truth" in those cases. 

Perhaps you play above Marin's level.  I don't, and so I have found that many of his observations are informative, insightful and yes, potentially useful.  That's really what someone gets from this work: the chance to listen to a GM opine about this and that, with particular reference to the chosed 1...e5 systems but also with some broader implications.  Personally when I encounter a GM sharing his ideas, I'm inclined to shut up and listen, but if you don't like it, fine: go fire up you data base and pore over the latest red-hot theory, if you think that's the best way to improve your game.   

Marin is quite up front about saying that the lines he presents are simply ones that he understands and likes.  You may insist that only works that treat the very latest GM practice are worth reading, but I think that that's a narrow attitude that tends to cut one's chess education short.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #33 - 07/17/07 at 19:51:49
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/17/07 at 19:10:17:
krugman wrote on 07/16/07 at 07:29:07:
I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".

I was so satisfied with my copy I gave it away! Huh Undecided


I would not advice fellow GM authors to criticize other authors in such a sarcastic way.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #32 - 07/17/07 at 19:10:17
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krugman wrote on 07/16/07 at 07:29:07:
I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".

I was so satisfied with my copy I gave it away! Huh Undecided
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #31 - 07/16/07 at 07:29:07
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Well, I have just bought Marin's books, and although I am also a bit disappointed by the fact that he didn't choose more "active " variations of the Chigorin (like the exd4 then cxd4 lines for instance), I must say that I really enjoy going through the history of a given variation: that way you can really understand why some moves are played, and why some are not.

Furthermore, I see Marin as an old-fashioned author  (i.e. does not use the comp or databases a lot) which is quite good for analysing old games (as in Chess legends for insatnce) but maybe less so for opening books. It might explain why his two books on the open games are relatively less good than his previous works; still, I am rather happy with my purchase since I really enjoy reading Marin's prose.
Of course, I understand that this might not be enough for some people and I perfectly understand all the criticism he has received.However, given the lack of really good alternatives for the open games (except, maybe Emms' book which is a bit dated, above all in the Scotch...), I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #30 - 07/08/07 at 02:23:21
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 22:48:25:
And I gotta tell ya, as someone who played e4 for a long time, this kind of thing wouldn't ever frighten me.


I cannot entirely disagree with your apparent preference of other Black defensive setups.

However, while I wholeheartedly agree the Rubinstein defensive setup is not terribly frightening, you may find that it's also not easy to generate winning chances for White. True, Black will also find it tough to generate real chances once White stabilizes the Queen side. IMO, the sterile nature of the middle game rather than the lack of quality of the variation, explains its infrequent occurrence at the master level and above. After 12. -Nc6, White plays 13. d5 in only about half of the games (Black retreats to d8 in the majority of these games). Many White players prefer Fischer's 13. dxc5 to fight for an advantage.

I wonder, after the queen side has stabilized with 14.a4! and 15.b4!, what would you suggest as a plan for white? Breaking down the fortress is not a walk in the park! I am nearly 2300 and remember having a heck of a time beating a 2100 player in a 40/2 game.

In recent 2400+ practice, Marin himself used this setup to draw relatively easily. In the 1973 Russian Championship, Spassky used it against Karpov and was undefeated in a very complex fight (although admittedly improvements for White have been suggested in the early middlegame). At that time, these two players represented the chess elite playing in a very prestigious tournament. I'd dare say that any line played at that level without being refuted is NOT third rate.

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #29 - 07/07/07 at 23:48:05
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I'm sure the book is useful, probably in the areas of the early d5 push for white and other things...but Marin's judgement (after the last book) is a little suspect and then he chooses to spend valuable space on a line I don't consider very attractive for 99% of people who buy books...at least Bd7 seems to have more in common with the cxd4 lines.

I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me better to get a book with lots of wordless analysis and theory on an opening with winning chances than an excellent explanatory book on a crumple-zone opening.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #28 - 07/07/07 at 23:24:39
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 22:48:25:
So there's absolutely no way I'm right, and I know nothing, huh? How terribly friendly you are... Huh


I never said you "know nothing."  You could be Tiviakov for all I know.   Smiley

To clarify, my last comment was not directed towards your general understanding of chess or the line in question.  I just have my doubts about judging the value of a book without having read it.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #27 - 07/07/07 at 22:48:25
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So there's absolutely no way I'm right, and I know nothing, huh? How terribly friendly you are... Huh

You assume I'm saying things I'm not. You're having a genral discussion of old openings and I'm having a specific one. I'm willing to say when I'm wrong and I'm willing to say when an old idea might work (Bd7 Petrosian), I just think there's not much play on the queenside for black in this Rubenstein thing based on praxis, which yes, is the ultimate authority here. I don't understand the accusation that I do my thinking with databases, because I do my thinking at the board -- I just prefer to stand on the shoulders of some pretty tall people so I have an idea of what I'm doing in the middlegame.

Quote:
..use of old ideas in novel surroundings.


Using an old idea might be good, by say transporting one move or idea into another variation, this opening is more along the lines of old wine in a new bottle. In this case the bottle is a newly published book people have been anticipating from a GM with a (not undeserved) fanbase.

And I don't have to be a GM to be skeptical of his choices or characterize them as less than fantastic.

And I gotta tell ya, as someone who played e4 for a long time, this kind of thing wouldn't ever frighten me.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #26 - 07/07/07 at 17:01:00
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You sure know an awful lot about something you know little about.  Undecided  Actually one of the things I like about Marin is that he sometimes goes down paths that are less covered in existing literature.  I actually like to listen to people who think without a database, as they might actually have something new or interesting to say, however flawed it may potentially be.

By the way, innovation often occurs through the use of old ideas in novel surroundings.  This is the type of thing that you cannot easily predict with statistics.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #25 - 07/07/07 at 12:41:54
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I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs, as in chess, politics, physics, sports, etc...Saying I need to spend money to criticize an author's choices is ...well not the best rebuttal.

The fact is, these books are let downs and some people don't want to face that.

Quote:
Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0  
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..


I have no doubt that the plan occurs in classic games. I also have no doubt the plan sucks.

I always look at recent games of 2400+ to see what they're playing and how they're doing in certain lines. I can see if there are any similarities. Postny doesn't follow the plan at all, while most of the rest do play f6, some f5 like Postny, and a few find their own way. There certainly does seem to be a lot of international-level players puting their knight on g7 and f7. I just wasn't HONESTLY aware that was the plan. I wasn't saying 'Oh Really?" to be sarcastic, I was being honest. I can't believe that's the plan. It also is occurring less in recent games.  I dunno..to me seems like positional play through process of elimination (the knight's doing more on d7 as in a Breyer thsan on f7). However, I agree with you that this is the standard plan in this variation. It just doesn't impress me.


I just don't think this opening choice is anything other than third rate.

In anycase my point is that the plan isn't a shining example of efficiency or much of a winning attempt. The score for this (on Chesslab and my Chessbase) isn't great, either.

And as you can clearly see, the plan with a4 and b4 nullfies any advantage on the queenside black may think he has.


Some times old lines are good, sometimes not. If people aren't playing something, the question is "Why not?'



Quote:
"...counting pages?"


Book reviewers do this all the time, even on the quick. Neither Watson nor Hansen read every page of every book they encounter, and reasoned coverage is an issue. I think it's relevant that he chooses to spend more pulp on the evil of two lessers.

Quote:
Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read...


I've talked about Houska, and Sverre's, both of which I own and read. I don't need to read a book to criticize an author's chosen focus, since the variations are readily available (and stats). I can also see how easy it would be for the good club player to outplay a slightly lower rated opponent in this opening, or outplay a higher one.  The former is possible if the lower rated doesn't know the plan, but the latter would be difficult indeed. Plus, there's nothing really on the queenside, and the Kingside often comes under fire ( I don't believe in this fortress thing).

You guys are over looking the obvious anyway: I started off by saying that this book cannot teach us about the Ruy Lopez, just about the plans within the chosen subset, and here we are proving it. The usual ideas in the closed do not involve Nf7, and f6. That's what the ideas are in the Rubenstein, but what about the ideas in the cxd4 variation, which bears more in common with other Spanish types like Adams-Ivanchuk Lucerne '89 or Svidler-Shirov Tal Memorial 2006.  These are the kind of games I think of when I think of the Ruy Lopez, or the games from both Fischer-Spassky matches.

I guess I was wrong when I thought that I thought this f6 and Ng7 business wasn't standard, but hey...it still isn't proper Lopez practice to me and definitely is not something to write home about. I still think it would have been better to focus on Bd7 or cxd4...

  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #24 - 07/07/07 at 05:10:31
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 18:55:45:
The real problem is that he spends double the number of pages talking about the Rubenstein than he does the Petrosian.

I find all this talk that this will help the reader understand anything but third tier lines vague and subjective.

...

Again, I hate to be so blunt, but I think "fashion" here is a euphemism for "accepted theory." If something is out of fashion, it's just not capriciousness at play, there's usually a damn good reason people don't play it! How about something called "winning chances?" I don't know why Postny chose to play this variation, but his games had demonstrated that f6 isn't so hot (he played f5 against Korneev) and that the queenside is nothing special for black. Of course, it's a different story if white doesn't know about the a4/b4 plan.


Have you even read the book at all (besides the intro and counting pages)?  If current theory is all you need, why read books?  Smiley

Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read is almost as much of a waste of time as actually reading the darned things, so take the high road:  ...the Hikaru way!
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #23 - 07/07/07 at 04:46:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 18:55:45:
Quote:
AFAIK this is a standard defensive setup for Black in the Chigorin. After Black has played g6 to keep White's Knight on g3 (or e3) off f5, a kingside fortress is created with f6 and Nf6-e8-g7, Nc6-d8-f7.


Really?


Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #22 - 07/06/07 at 18:55:45
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Quote:
AFAIK this is a standard defensive setup for Black in the Chigorin. After Black has played g6 to keep White's Knight on g3 (or e3) off f5, a kingside fortress is created with f6 and Nf6-e8-g7, Nc6-d8-f7.


Really? I used to play the white side and I never saw anybody playing that against me. The standard idea is to play g6 and fianchetto the dark-square, but putting the knight's on g7 and f7? Also, black hardly ever gets to play f5 unless white has made a mistake or maybe in the fianchetto variation (Kramnik tried in the Berlin but didn't stop to control g5 first so he lost).

I've looked at some games where black doesn't play f5, but f6 with the knight on g7, horrible. It certainly is not a fortress. In most of the games played at high level in the Rubenstein, white almost always closes most of the queenside (the a file maybe opened, but that's for white not black!) via a4 first, then b4. Black ends up rather behind the curve on that side as well. He can create a passed pawn and try to get through the blockade, but that's it. I'm talking about IM and GM praxis here. I'm certainly not relying on my games.


Quote:
Opening preparation for the most popular openings generally is about studying the middlegames or even endgames that arise from them.  


Yes and no. It certainly applies to the typical middlegame positions. Marin's are not. At best, it's the long way around Robin Hood's barn studying middlegames from a variation you might not want to play in a must win situation.

And I think there's a tolerance of Sverre's and Marin's work that is unacceptable because the works fall under the heading of "Ruy Lopez" the king of openings!

If I told you, you could learn a lot from my book on the O'Kelly Sicilian that you could apply to your scheveningen, you'd laugh in my face. Or at least you should. You don't take a sub-standard variation and then claim it's going to help you play different mainline variations.

The real problem is that he spends double the number of pages talking about the Rubenstein than he does the Petrosian.

I find all this talk that this will help the reader understand anything but third tier lines vague and subjective.

Houska's book, by the way, contains lines where black castles kingside. The book isn't about avoidance of theory, but finding good playable lines within a golden mean (not too much theory, but not wimping out or passive either).

Quote:
The reason that you will learn the most by playing the mainlines...


But this is what I'm arguing for, not against! In his book Marin says

Quote:
I intentionally avoided fashionable systems. Experience has taught me that fashion is an unpredictable and capricious lady; after certain variations have been well-enough forgotten, they might come back into the limelight. Secondly (and more importantly I would say), the task of catching the very essence of the position in lines where theory advances with big steps (not necessarily in the correct direction) is rather difficult. It is much easier to take a photo or sketch a portrait of a virtually immobile image than to describe a highly animated scene.Instead, I have preferred to choose variations with a very long past, involving the names of great players including world champions. This will give us the opportunity of following the evolution of thought processes through the years. It is also supposed to lend some stability to the theoretical conclusions given in the following pages. Truths that have required years or even decades to unfold completely to human understanding, and involve names like Rubinstein, Botvinnik, Keres, Smyslov, Petrosian or Karpov will hardly ever be shaken by practice or with the help of a computer.


In order to be fair to Marin, I put the whole quote.

Again, I hate to be so blunt, but I think "fashion" here is a euphemism for "accepted theory." If something is out of fashion, it's just not capriciousness at play, there's usually a damn good reason people don't play it! How about something called "winning chances?" I don't know why Postny chose to play this variation, but his games had demonstrated that f6 isn't so hot (he played f5 against Korneev) and that the queenside is nothing special for black. Of course, it's a different story if white doesn't know about the a4/b4 plan.

Marin gives third or fourth tier variations that are passive and don't give black much to look forward to (Yeah, I'm really glad Petrosian got draws, let's forget that his Qd7 Winawer, Old Indian, risky inerpretation of the Kan aren't really played anymore).

Marin is simply putting a happy spin on this by connecting the variations to names (The Marshall variation in the French sucks and so does Rubenstein's Ne5 in the Semi-Slav for white so names don't impress me, Mike) and by attempting to make these unpopular variations look good by virtue of their unpopularity -- subjective.

I look at whether I think his variations are good objectively, and although the Petrosian variation makes some sense as a backup, the Rubenstein as a main recommendation does not.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #21 - 07/06/07 at 17:27:57
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How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?


General principles will not bring you far in chess. Combined with other skills like good calculating ability or good endgame play they are useful, but not in their own right.

The "principles" that will help you finding a good middlegame plan are those that are specific for a particular branch of positions - quite frequently principles connected with a particular opening variation. Opening preparation for the most popular openings generally is about studying the middlegames or even endgames that arise from them.

I have not read Houska's book but assuming that it concentrates on the classical Caro Kann I would believe that a major theme is the middlegames or endgames that can arise from the mainline 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 and in particular the line 10...e6 11. Bd2 Ngf6 12. O-O-O Qc7 13. Ne4 O-O-O 14. g3 Nxe4 15. Qxe4. It is of course possible to pick a less popular but fully playable alternative for Black in order to avoid some theory but without a discussion of the typical middlegame positions the reader can hardly be expected to play the opening well.

The reason that you will learn the most by playing the mainlines is mainly that it has been tested and annotated by some of the world's leading players and theorists.
  

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