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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin (Read 42534 times)
MNb
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #80 - 11/24/07 at 21:07:31
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HgMan wrote on 11/24/07 at 19:07:14:
I think you might be talking past each other a little.

Maybe because TN focuses his instinct too much on his navel? That also explains why it took him so many weeks to formulate his reaction.  Roll Eyes Nice to read though, that one of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century produced "lofty intellectual krap". Or had he this in mind?

TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
The way suggested by your Karl Popper quote often leads to chess paralysis, and hampers an aspiring players' chess development. This malady tends to afflict adult players moreso than junior ones in my observation.

Anyhow, TN's last post proves that this debate becomes tedious.  Lips Sealed
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #79 - 11/24/07 at 19:07:14
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I think you might be talking past each other a little.  Instinct is important, yes, but not in situations in which a particular move has been proven to be bad.  Instinct is critical to creativity--I don't think MNb or his hero Spielmann would disagree with that--but research and analysis are also useful tools...
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #78 - 11/24/07 at 02:42:21
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 21:21:48:
[quote]
Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.


Such theoretical musing only serves to paralyse the thought process of an aspiring chessplayer and to my mind amounts to no more than the intellectual equivalent of contemplating ones navel. As I have said some time back in a related thread, such sophism as 'instinct also diminishes logic' is one of the major undermining reasons why adults often find chess improvement so difficult and kids excel so readily. Kids simply don't get bogged down with all this lofty intellectual krap and maybe we all could learn a thing or two from such an un-encumbered approach.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #77 - 11/24/07 at 01:31:22
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 21:21:48:
TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
Chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very health approach for aspiring chessplayers.


Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.


Actually, Popper was no scientist at all, but rather a philosopher of science.  MNb's reference to his theory of falsifiability is rather apt: an opening line is good until proven otherwise...
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #76 - 09/19/07 at 06:44:58
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Quote:
I probably will buy the second volume, because there is quite a bit of interesting material there. But as you can see in the previous thread on Marin's book, I do share the critisism.

(1) There are simply to much variations untouched, to use it as a basis for my repertoire. I had an unfortunate experience in the Spanish Exchange where a natural and strong unmetnioned alternative at move 9 has left all the other analysis superfluous. It's a correspondence game, and I have
to werk very hard to keep a draw.


So has this mysterious unmentioned alternative been revealed as yet, or am I too late?

Toppy Smiley

Postscript: I'm betting its 9.Nc4
  

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MNb
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #75 - 09/10/07 at 21:21:48
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TopNotch wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:56:04:
Chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very health approach for aspiring chessplayers.


Granted, but the emphasis on instinct also diminishes the value of logic and reason in chess. Popper was not an exact scientist by the way.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #74 - 09/10/07 at 20:56:04
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MNb wrote on 09/10/07 at 20:35:45:
Every hypothesis derived by logic and reason has to be verified/falsified in practice.  Wink (Kudos to Karl Popper).


This seems like a scientific quote, but chess is and never has been an exact science. Good instincts and the ability not to over think or resist the inclination of having to analyse every thing out to the minutest detail is a very healthy approach for aspiring chessplayers.

The way suggested by your Karl Popper quote often leads to chess paralysis, and hampers an aspiring players' chess development. This malady tends to afflict adult players moreso than junior ones in my observation.

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #73 - 09/10/07 at 20:35:45
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Every hypothesis derived by logic and reason has to be verified/falsified in practice.  Wink (Kudos to Karl Popper).
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #72 - 09/10/07 at 20:31:25
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 12:41:54:
I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs, as in chess, politics, physics, sports, etc...Saying I need to spend money to criticize an author's choices is ...well not the best rebuttal.

The fact is, these books are let downs and some people don't want to face that.

Quote:
Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0  
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..


I have no doubt that the plan occurs in classic games. I also have no doubt the plan sucks.

I always look at recent games of 2400+ to see what they're playing and how they're doing in certain lines. I can see if there are any similarities. Postny doesn't follow the plan at all, while most of the rest do play f6, some f5 like Postny, and a few find their own way. There certainly does seem to be a lot of international-level players puting their knight on g7 and f7. I just wasn't HONESTLY aware that was the plan. I wasn't saying 'Oh Really?" to be sarcastic, I was being honest. I can't believe that's the plan. It also is occurring less in recent games.  I dunno..to me seems like positional play through process of elimination (the knight's doing more on d7 as in a Breyer thsan on f7). However, I agree with you that this is the standard plan in this variation. It just doesn't impress me.


I just don't think this opening choice is anything other than third rate.

In anycase my point is that the plan isn't a shining example of efficiency or much of a winning attempt. The score for this (on Chesslab and my Chessbase) isn't great, either.

And as you can clearly see, the plan with a4 and b4 nullfies any advantage on the queenside black may think he has.


Some times old lines are good, sometimes not. If people aren't playing something, the question is "Why not?'



Quote:
"...counting pages?"


Book reviewers do this all the time, even on the quick. Neither Watson nor Hansen read every page of every book they encounter, and reasoned coverage is an issue. I think it's relevant that he chooses to spend more pulp on the evil of two lessers.

Quote:
Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read...


I've talked about Houska, and Sverre's, both of which I own and read. I don't need to read a book to criticize an author's chosen focus, since the variations are readily available (and stats). I can also see how easy it would be for the good club player to outplay a slightly lower rated opponent in this opening, or outplay a higher one.  The former is possible if the lower rated doesn't know the plan, but the latter would be difficult indeed. Plus, there's nothing really on the queenside, and the Kingside often comes under fire ( I don't believe in this fortress thing).

You guys are over looking the obvious anyway: I started off by saying that this book cannot teach us about the Ruy Lopez, just about the plans within the chosen subset, and here we are proving it. The usual ideas in the closed do not involve Nf7, and f6. That's what the ideas are in the Rubenstein, but what about the ideas in the cxd4 variation, which bears more in common with other Spanish types like Adams-Ivanchuk Lucerne '89 or Svidler-Shirov Tal Memorial 2006.  These are the kind of games I think of when I think of the Ruy Lopez, or the games from both Fischer-Spassky matches.

I guess I was wrong when I thought that I thought this f6 and Ng7 business wasn't standard, but hey...it still isn't proper Lopez practice to me and definitely is not something to write home about. I still think it would have been better to focus on Bd7 or cxd4...



Some very interesting insights, but  I ordered the book any way Embarrassed

"I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs" I like this quote very much, and it can be applied to Openings and Opening variations as well, i.e. one can often detect using logic and reason that something is fundamentally suspect even before it has been proven. Those familiar with many of my older posts on the forum, especially the 1.e4 e5 section, will know exactly what I'm driving at here.  Wink

Toppy  Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #71 - 09/10/07 at 20:04:47
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Mortal Games wrote on 06/11/07 at 12:12:48:
The second book of Marin to complete the repertoire for Black against 1...e5 is out soon.
I think this book and The Ruy Lopez a Guide for Black from Sverre are the best books on the Spanish available on 2007.


Maybe the best in 2007, but what do you think about Greet's effort in 2006?

Toppy Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #70 - 08/19/07 at 00:09:06
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Truly a very good book (regarding quality) . But as I have written before regarding Marins openingbooks is that they are too messy. I want an opening book to be crystal clear in its structure. This book and the other book " Beat the open games" are not books with a clear structure.

A book should be easy to follow. The book concists of a lot of diagrams and excerpts from games. I like to see a game or variation from the beginning to the end. I dont like "Marins way". In an other thread I compared "Beat the open games" with John Emms book "Play the open games". I dont claim Emms repertoire is better but the book is crystal clear in its structure. Its very easy to find what you look for in Emms book.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #69 - 08/17/07 at 16:36:19
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Many thanks Paddy / ghengisclown,
       It is there, I just hadn't got to it yet. I agree that the type of position that 13.d5 creates gives you pause for thought as Black. However, it may still be attractive due to Marin's vivid description. I think it probably deserves a try, particularly as you say, at club level.
All the best !
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #68 - 08/16/07 at 10:52:31
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I was looking at d5 after the knight returns to c6 in the so-called Rubenstein variation. So actually it's 13.d5 I'm talking about. After that the Knight goes either to d8 or a7.

Subjectively, I don't like this. Objectively, such moves can succeed in blocked positions. But it depends how blocked things are and where the pawn breaks are.

It's funny, I like the Czech Benoni, but not this. I'd rather prefer that in playing the knight  backwards, and then putting it on f7 (and the other on g7) that black get f5 in rather than go for the h7-g6-f6 pawn chain that if memory serves Markovich called a "fortress." In addition, black is very flexible in the Czech, as he is able to threaten Queenside activity as well (like a6 with b5 as a threat, or perhaps played later on). Here, that happens so early white is able to deal with it effectively with a4 and b4.

Actually it might be better to play 11...Nc6 for black!

Of course, in club play these considerations might not matter so much. I also am warming up to Marin's other idea of Petrosian's 12.`...Bd7 but this hardly seems like a winning attempt, just a safe system.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #67 - 08/15/07 at 20:54:06
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Laramonet wrote on 08/15/07 at 18:44:26:
"the area(s) of the early d5 push for white" was mentioned by Genghisclown in an earlier comment. I have to admit I wasn't aware that such lines were being played; I'm assuming we're talking about 12.d5 instead of 12.Nbd2. However, Marin doesn't mention this line.


Yes he does, but it's not easy to find. He considers it by transposition in the Petrosian System chapter starting at the bottom of page 113.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #66 - 08/15/07 at 18:44:26
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"the area(s) of the early d5 push for white" was mentioned by Genghisclown in an earlier comment. I have to admit I wasn't aware that such lines were being played; I'm assuming we're talking about 12.d5 instead of 12.Nbd2. However, Marin doesn't mention this line. Does anyone know the latest position ? Is it deemed a "hot topic" or has it been deserted at high level ?
Having recently received my copy of Marin's book, I must say I'm enjoying it immensely. I played the Rubinstein line he describes more than twenty years ago a little. It's rekindled my interest to read such a logical and instructive work on this. I've only got this far in the book but thus far, I'd recommend it.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #65 - 08/06/07 at 12:43:29
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I have both of the recent works (Marin's Chigorin book discussed here, and Johannessen's Zaitsev, since I've finally taken TopNotch's advice and started learning the Ruy in a much-maligned and ultimately flawed search of greater chess understanding. I have to say that the level of explanation and analysis which has gone into both works is impressive, and whether or not both or either lines are ones you will choose to play, a serious study of any well-written work on an opening so strategically complex cannot fail to improve your own chess understanding in general, even if some of the manoeuvres are less-commonly seen in other openings (although, the g6, f6, Ng7 and Nf7 manoeuvre is also seem in certain lines of the Benoni/Czech Benoni).

As for the merit of the opening itself - I've tried it on ICC three times against equal- or higher-graded opposition. The result - three draws. The Zaitsev I don't really understand as well yet, but my results have been somewhat more impressive with that line nonetheless. Both are worth having in your repertoire if you play the closed Spanish, in my opinion. But, then again, so is the Latvian. It's all about fun at the end of the day.  Wink
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #64 - 08/02/07 at 17:47:29
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alberich wrote on 08/02/07 at 13:58:13:
Is there anybody from Europe who has the book please tell us what line Marin is advocating against the Spanish? According to Barnes & Noble online...this book will be available for order Aug 21st?! That's still an awfully long time to wait to learn the answer to this burning question. I have problems playing against the Berlin as White...so I would imagine this could be a potential line Marin could follow.


Burning yes, but I don't imagine it will go away after August 21st.  Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #63 - 08/02/07 at 16:57:45
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tafl wrote on 08/02/07 at 14:12:21:
Alberich: Do you have any reason to believe that the pdf-extract given by MarinFan in this very thread is incorrect? Or that IM Andrew Greet is wrong when he tells that "He recommends two lines for Black in the Chigorin after 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2. First there is Rubinsteins's system with 12...Nc6 (meeting 13.d5 with 13...Nd8) and he also covers Petrosion's variation 12...Bd7."?


My apologies! This is great. I guess I may have misread that part. Terrific news.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #62 - 08/02/07 at 14:41:57
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Quote:
I received my copy a couple of days ago. Though I have not yet scrutinised the book in great detail, I can report that I am very impressed with what I have read so far. He recommends two lines for Black in the Chigorin after 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2. First there is Rubinsteins's system with 12...Nc6 (meeting 13.d5 with 13...Nd8) and he also covers Petrosion's variation 12...Bd7.

Marin devotes a great deal of space to the historical evolution of these variations, which helps the reader to understand how the current main lines came to be recognised as such. Then there is the usual analysis section with very detailed coverage. Like I said, I haven't been through everything with a fine toothcomb but from what I have seen it looks excellent.

  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #61 - 08/02/07 at 14:12:21
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Alberich: Do you have any reason to believe that the pdf-extract given by MarinFan in this very thread is incorrect? Or that IM Andrew Greet is wrong when he tells that "He recommends two lines for Black in the Chigorin after 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2. First there is Rubinsteins's system with 12...Nc6 (meeting 13.d5 with 13...Nd8) and he also covers Petrosion's variation 12...Bd7."?
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #60 - 08/02/07 at 13:58:13
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Is there anybody from Europe who has the book please tell us what line Marin is advocating against the Spanish? According to Barnes & Noble online...this book will be available for order Aug 21st?! That's still an awfully long time to wait to learn the answer to this burning question. I have problems playing against the Berlin as White...so I would imagine this could be a potential line Marin could follow.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #59 - 08/02/07 at 12:41:21
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Markovich wrote on 08/01/07 at 15:52:31:
Quote:
Hey Tony Kosten!

I see that you don't respect Marin as a chess writer. OK. But tell me one thing: how good are YOUR books? As much I know John Nunn examines your Latvian gambit in his "Secrets of practical chess" with a final verdict: thumb down!

In the future, when you criticize one's book do it like professionalist: use dialectics: emphasize good and bad side of the coin simultaneously  Wink




This to a GM.  Age about, oh, 15?


He went back and deleted his answer to this, which was, "14."  Par for the course, I suppose.  I raised two teenagers.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #58 - 08/01/07 at 20:42:42
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Quote:
Yesterday you insulted my mother Markovich, we know you in town. Old sucker


It certainly would be a good idea, if she teached you some manners. It would also be nice, if you used some logic. Nunn's criticism of GM Kosten's book on the Latvian has nothing to do with the quality of GM Marin's book. Finally you might reflect a bit on the word honesty. The Latvian book is not quite the only one written by GM Kosten. Several others have gotten very good reviews.

I suspect, we see a troll at work here. If I were on the administration board of this site, I would raise the possibility of a ban - after counting the amount of concrete lines brought in by HM (how close to zero?)
  

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A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #57 - 08/01/07 at 18:01:40
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H.M.

Kostens two books on the Latvian gambit were unique in that a really strong player looked at a much maligned opening, and did so without  bias. At least to me they - and especially the second edition - have an air of a academic treatise about them. It is made clear that there are lines where Black is struggling, though, if memory serves me, not particularly the one that Nunn dug into. And, perhaps even more remarkably, from what I have read and heared it was very well received by advocates of the Latvian gambit, a feat that perhaps can be compared to Jackson managing to keep most Ring fans moderately happy.

  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #56 - 08/01/07 at 17:43:58
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There is an obnoxious kid out of control here.  Would someone please go get the assistant principal?
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #55 - 08/01/07 at 15:52:31
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Quote:
Hey Tony Kosten!

I see that you don't respect Marin as a chess writer. OK. But tell me one thing: how good are YOUR books? As much I know John Nunn examines your Latvian gambit in his "Secrets of practical chess" with a final verdict: thumb down!

In the future, when you criticize one's book do it like professionalist: use dialectics: emphasize good and bad side of the coin simultaneously  Wink




This to a GM.  Age about, oh, 15?
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #54 - 08/01/07 at 15:13:35
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Hmaster: Behave.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #53 - 07/31/07 at 13:59:51
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Right now...all we can do is speculate. However, I think I may be onto something when I suggested in my last post that a reverse Worall Attack with Qe7 could be one option to avoid drawish lines in the Spanish. (This is under the assumption the Marin lines are specifically geared towards the Black side.)

I mentioned losing a game from the White side because I faced the surprising Qf6!? You know something? The Qf6 line is very interesting because it anticipates White possibly taking the knight on c6 and maintains the Q-side pawn structure. So Qf6 looks very intriuging to me right now and I'm wondering if this is one of those lines Marin looked at.

I'm doubtful though. Since I read Marin's introduction to Learning from the Legends...I think he's more geared toward introducing possible lines from Russian chess magazine articles which haven't made the translation to English. This means...maybe he wants to come up with new ideas for say...the old Steinitz line - which looks very natural but very constricting for Black when faced with mobile White bishops. I am disappointed to hear Marin won't be covering the Marshall Attack. Maybe the Marshall lines are already too drawish?!
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #52 - 07/31/07 at 13:37:22
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Say, any of you European owners of this book (not yet available in US, although I was told in email by Aagard that it should become available about now) -

How is the coverage of 1. e4 e5  2.  Nf3  Nc6  3.  Bb5  a6  4.  Ba4  Nf6  5.  0-0  Be2  6. Nc3  ?

My sources are somewhat old (ECO II, Seutin - Complete Spanish, Barden,  Pachman's opening series, which I have found quite interesting through the years).

After 6. ... b5  7.  Bb3,  most lines given are from 7.  ... d6,  although Barden states 7.  ... 0-0 is more accurate, without an real explanation why.

While it seems pretty easy equality is achieved for Black in pretty much all the lines, I find many of the resulting positions somewhat drawish or sterile.  Since I am faced with the prospect of playing this game for the next year (correspondence), I want select an approach that maintains complexity.  In correspondence chess, don't you hate it when your opponent won't play a main line you have been planning to study in depth, in part through your game?

So question - does Marin cover this and have any fresh approaches?

Thanks for any insight on this or any other reference suggestion.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #51 - 07/30/07 at 12:51:53
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alberich wrote on 07/30/07 at 03:14:55:
After reading the surprisingly harsh comments about "Beating The Open Games" I have to wonder what lines will be mysteriously missing from the upcoming release. I'm still going to place a pre-order soon for the book and I'll look foward to getting it.

I've been wondering if Marin is "aware" of the Quigley line in the old main line of the Ruy Lopez Marshall Attack. This was discussed by Tim Harding awhile back and I'd be curious to know if Marin knows about this. It would be curious to see what he thinks of it. In case you're wondering this is the line that goes...17...Re6 18 a4 f5 19 axb5...with axb5 replacing the main line move of 19 Qf1.


What book are you going to preorder? The Spanish repertoire for black is already out a month ago?
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #50 - 07/30/07 at 12:44:45
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Which system with the black pieces is the most aggressive and likely to give winning chances against the spanish.  I have a friend who implores me to learn the marshall, but I was curious if there was anything else just as good?
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #49 - 07/30/07 at 12:31:52
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There's a line I ran into recently on FICS (while I logged in as a guest)...

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Qf6?!...could this be the line Marin will suggest? I know this is just a joke...but when I saw this move...it reminded me of the line in the Spanish Exchange when the black Queen comes out to d6 or even f6. I'm sorry I didn't keep the rest of the score for that one as I lost... Embarrassed

Maybe he'll suggest a reverse Worrall Attack line with the black Queen going on e7?
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #48 - 07/30/07 at 06:27:28
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I don't know whether Marin is or is not aware of this line, but he certainly does not adress it, since the Marshall is not part of the repertoire he recommends.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #47 - 07/30/07 at 03:14:55
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After reading the surprisingly harsh comments about "Beating The Open Games" I have to wonder what lines will be mysteriously missing from the upcoming release. I'm still going to place a pre-order soon for the book and I'll look foward to getting it.

I've been wondering if Marin is "aware" of the Quigley line in the old main line of the Ruy Lopez Marshall Attack. This was discussed by Tim Harding awhile back and I'd be curious to know if Marin knows about this. It would be curious to see what he thinks of it. In case you're wondering this is the line that goes...17...Re6 18 a4 f5 19 axb5...with axb5 replacing the main line move of 19 Qf1.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #46 - 07/19/07 at 14:04:19
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Quote:
I had an unfortunate experience in the Spanish Exchange where a natural and strong unmetnioned alternative at move 9 has left all the other analysis superfluous. It's a correspondence game, and I have to werk very hard to keep a draw.

Interesting, will you post it here when it is finished?

Quote:
Mr. Marin could have saved himself some time if he had added chesspublishing to his sources.  Wink

I agreeed with almost eveything in your post, but mostly with this! Wink
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #45 - 07/19/07 at 13:34:07
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/19/07 at 04:10:09:
You can keep trying to rephrase what I'm saying into a strawman or a misbegotten reductio ad absurdum, but I think that's this is demonstrative of your narrow attitude that tends to cut one's appreciation of what a fellow chess player is trying to say.


We will have to agree to disagree on most of the points you raise.  Personally I have found Marin's ...e5 book to be a rewarding read and I expect that I will also enjoy his Spanish book.

In reply to your quoted words here, I did indeed try to address what I honestly perceived to be your position.  I don't come here to set up straw men or otherwise to bandy words, but to talk about chess and how to get better at it. 

Anyway, enough.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #44 - 07/19/07 at 08:10:35
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Quote:
I referred to Sverre's book because I think it's ridiculous to make the argument that you're going to learn how to play anything other than the variations in the book.


You will have a very tough time learning to play good chess if you are not able to or willing to learn anything from an analysis except those exact variations in that particular position. You should naturally be very careful about generalizing too broadly, but most players use their experience from positions with similar pawn structure, piece dynamics etc. to identify candidate moves and ideas in their games.

Most strong players agree that one of the best ways of improving your middlegame play, is to study a well annotated game collection with a good mix of variations and explanatory prose. This will teach you not only about how GMs play the specific positions in these games but also about how they generally think and arrive at their decisions. This is useful no matter which openings or kind of positions are discussed. But if the games in question are from openings that you play yourself or are closely related to those, that's a VERY valuable bonus. Therefore most students look for game collections or annotated games by players that have some openings in common with their own repertoire.

I believe there is a GM consensus that most lines (Chigorin, Breyer, Zaitsev, Smyslov etc.) and sub-variations in the Closed Ruy Lopez are sufficiently related that the learning of one line will not only make it easier to adopt a second one, but will also deepen your understanding of these two lines. The Zaitsev mainline may seem to be an exception as it leads to very sharp positions of a quite specific nature. However, it can be argued that these (theory loaded) lines have a particular interest as they highlight the struggle in its most un-compromising form.

It is also a fact that a very large proportion of the Zaitsev games will end up in non-critical lines where White plays an early a3 or closes the centre with an early d5. Against these lines Black's active piece development allows him to fight for the initiative in a very instructive way (which may be utilized in slower CRL lines too, but will possibly demand more preparation or lead to less clear-cut results). However, if you find the Zaitsev mainlines too theoretically demanding (or leading to too sharp positions), there always are the ...Qd7 lines that tend to lead to very generic and quite slow CRL positions where precise theoretical knowledge is less important.

It no doubt is true that you will learn more about the modern mainline (9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 cxd4 13.cxd4 Nc6 14.Nb3 a5 15.Be3 a4 16.Nbd2 Bd7 17.Rc1 Qb7) in a book that specifically targets that position (and White's possible deviations after 13...Nc6) but it's not very likely to be published a book about such a specialized subject. In the lack of such a book, your best approach today will be to study Marin's book and accept the wisdom he is willing to share. In addition you obviously should build your own annotated database with Chigorin mainline games. You can be quite confident that this will improve your general understanding of the Closed Ruy Lopez.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #43 - 07/19/07 at 04:50:02
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There seems to be a misunderstanding of chess culture.  I don't think either of these books is intended for the amateur seeking winning results in Swiss events.  I am guessing that you are American.  (No knock, I am American and also play in Swiss events.  I know about the need to win against weaker players.)  Many grandmasters in other countries progressed in their early years by making solid results against stronger opposition.  It is quite possible that these books are written for the developing player from this perspective.  From what I read in Ruy Lopez:  A Guide for Black, Johannessen seemed to approach the book as a personal project, writing about his results from learning the opening.  I don't think that class players (or people seeking ways to beat them) were the intended audience.  It's really not fair to the author to compare this book with the repertoire book by Davies in this respect.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #42 - 07/19/07 at 04:10:09
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Quote:
Your I-dare-anyone-to-teach-me-anything argumentation here really seems rather sophomoric to me.


I don't know where this came from but I'm kind of sick of the "Don't you dare diagree with our buddy Marin, unless you're a titled player" crowd.

I see that later you changed your tune somewhat, Markovich:

Quote:
Fair enough, though I think Marin offers some insights that are interesting and useful ...


How wonderfully genteel of you. Too bad I don't have those two capital letters before my name that could stop me from making immature "argumentation."

Quote:
He defended his book on his blog by trying to say that a study of it would improve one's ability in the Spanish game/chess. I think that's nonsense. Nobody studies the Najdorf's lines to learn chess, but to learn the Najdorf, period. How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?


That statement I made, to avoid confusion, referred to Ruy Lopez: a Guide for Black. I referred to Sverre's book because I think it's ridiculous to make the argument that you're going to learn how to play anything other than the variations in the book. THAT BOOK WAS THEORY-BOUND. And yet I hated it, after reading it.  However, I believe this criticism does apply somewhat to "A Spanish Repertoire."  Both books are specific in their nature.

I'm sorry, but I really find the idea that what is clearly meant to be an opening book is presented by some as a "middlegame book" as simply part of an excuse-making project. Obviously, any GM can produce a book with insights into the middlegame, but that's not what I'm criticizing. Marin's choice of opening variations and overall goals vis a vis those choices are what I'm looking at.


The fact is, I am MORE qualified to evaluate certain things that even Mr.Kosten. Don't misunderstand me, I have the highest respect for him. I do want to make clear though that chess books are not written, or should not be, for Grandmasters. They are written for people like moi.

And I'm sorry if this hurts, but Sverre's and Marin's books are inappropriate for this audience. While I like Petrosian the player (particularly the way he handled the white-side of KID positions) I wouldn't play something he played for sake of qualifying in a W.C. cycle, or maintaing a draw according to his philosophy (get a draw after losing), or play something he utilized in round robins against strong players like Tal.

Hello, I'm in weekend Swisses with non-Grandmasters! I'm not trying to get a draw in the money-round, and I might actually feel a WIN is the BEST way to get over a loss. I might actually believe that if I study an opus like Marin's, I should come away with a tournament weapon I can use for the rest of my life, as opposed to an occasional drawing weapon against an 1800...gimme a break!

Still, the real problem is the Rubenstein's inclusion as the primary approach. Notice that Marin always chooses older versions of variations, because he's personally happy with draws (the goals of a GM, not us mere mortals) but also because by explaining these lines he doesn't have to worry about near refutations which sort of befell Davies' suggestion of the Keres Graf, although the latter is a book I've come to really appreciate. Virtually all the lines in the Davies book are about winning or as Davies puts it "pugnacity." Marin gives us the opposite of this, boring and uninspired fare.

I'm not daring anyone to teach me, it would just be nice if I didn't have to wait so long for hyped-up books I can't use.  I don't buy opening books for pleasuring reading, or Sunday drives through old games. I have game collections for that.


Quote:
Personally when I encounter a GM sharing his ideas, I'm inclined to shut up and listen, but if you don't like it, fine: go fire up you data base and pore over the latest red-hot theory, if you think that's the best way to improve your game.    

...You may insist that only works that treat the very latest GM practice are worth reading, but I think that that's a narrow attitude that tends to cut one's chess education short.


In my experience on the net, when people use strawmen they're arguing from an emotional level. You like Marin, which is fine...but don't expect me to lose my objectivity and sense of quite healthy skepticism merely because of his title.

I never said I only believe in red hot theory. As I clearly stated in my posts sometimes older lines are alright, but also at times there are some pretty compelling reasons why openings fall out of favor.  I have found time and time again, that "forgotten" variations need specific analysis to show why they are not favored by players and specific analysis to demonstrate why the author feels those lines are now good winning attempts.

You can keep trying to rephrase what I'm saying into a strawman or a misbegotten reductio ad absurdum, but I think that's this is demonstrative of your narrow attitude that tends to cut one's appreciation of what a fellow chess player is trying to say.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #41 - 07/18/07 at 17:45:41
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I probably will buy the second volume, because there is quite a bit of interesting material there. But as you can see in the previous thread on Marin's book, I do share the critisism.

(1) There are simply to much variations untouched, to use it as a basis for my repertoire.
     I had an unfortunate experience in the Spanish Exchange where a natural and strong unmetnioned alternative at move 9 has left all the other analysis superfluous. It's a correspondence game, and I have
to werk very hard to keep a draw.
(2) The choice of illustrative games is unfortunate in a few chapters
        (a) Scottish
        (b) Max-Lange attack.
This means that the introduction to these variatiions is also a bit beside
the point, and that the information on strategical and tactical issues is
lacking.

(3) I dont like the choice of variations:
        especially in the Max-Lange attack, the KG and the Scottish.

(4) The book is simply weak where it comes to transpositions.

(5) I dont like the format very much either.

On a lighter note I could "accuse" him of unconscious plagiate:
I discovered a bit of analysis in his book, that I published around march 2006 on this forum. Mr. Marin could have saved himself some time if he
had added chesspublishing to his sources.  Wink



  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #40 - 07/18/07 at 12:21:36
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/18/07 at 11:44:58:
Yes, I found the format very, very cumbersome, I didn't like the choice of lines very much (this didn't tally with the title of the book at all - too many forced draws for White) and some of the analysis seems out-of-date.


Fair enough, though I think Marin offers some insights that are interesting and useful for the untitled likes of me.  I was impressed by his chapter on the Spanish Exchange, for instance. 

As for winning as Black, I declare that if chess is ever solved as a win for White, the publishers of chess books will still be insisting on titles like "Winning with the [insert any given defense here] Defense."

Personally I would not play some of the recommended lines; 2...Bc5 may be a simple way to proceed against 2. f4, but the opportunity cost of not playing 2...exf4! is high, I opine, particularly if the object is to win.  Still, there seems to be a theoretical vogue for 2...Bc5.  Davies recommended it, and there has been a recent series about it in NIC yearbook.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #39 - 07/18/07 at 11:44:58
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Yes, I found the format very, very cumbersome, I didn't like the choice of lines very much (this didn't tally with the title of the book at all - too many forced draws for White) and some of the analysis seems out-of-date.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #38 - 07/18/07 at 03:25:11
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/17/07 at 23:17:43:
asmund wrote on 07/17/07 at 22:30:35:
I rather meant you and Marin, not myself.

OK, I misunderstood. Embarrassed
Anyway I like Marin's work in general, but not this particular book, for reasons we have already gone over in another thread.


Maybe I missed some of your argumentation in that other, massive, Marin thread, but I was only aware of your critcism of his KGD analysis.  Did you have a more fundamental criticism that I missed?


Oh sorry, I now see that you found the format very annoying.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #37 - 07/17/07 at 23:17:43
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asmund wrote on 07/17/07 at 22:30:35:
I rather meant you and Marin, not myself.

OK, I misunderstood. Embarrassed
Anyway I like Marin's work in general, but not this particular book, for reasons we have already gone over in another thread.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #36 - 07/17/07 at 22:30:35
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/17/07 at 22:22:36:
asmund wrote on 07/17/07 at 19:51:49:
I would not advice fellow GM authors to criticize other authors in such a sarcastic way.

You're not a fellow GM, or if you are I've never heard of you.


I rather meant you and Marin, not myself. Anyway your opinion of Marin's book is at least honest.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #35 - 07/17/07 at 22:22:36
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asmund wrote on 07/17/07 at 19:51:49:
I would not advice fellow GM authors to criticize other authors in such a sarcastic way.

You're not a fellow GM, or if you are I've never heard of you.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #34 - 07/17/07 at 21:35:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 06:10:10:
He defended his book on his blog by trying to say that a study of it would improve one's ability in the Spanish game/chess. I think that's nonsense. Nobody studies the Najdorf's lines to learn chess, but to learn the Najdorf, period. How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?


Your I-dare-anyone-to-teach-me-anything argumentation here really seems rather sophomoric to me.

You are missing the point of Marin's 1...e5 project.  It says right on the back cover (of the general 1...e5 book, anyway; I don't have the Spanish one yet) that this is a middle-game work under the cloak of an openings work.  Your last sentence above completely prejudges the argument.  There is nothing "highly theoretical" about the lines that Marin recommends, and he goes out of his way to say that he's chosen the more theoretically stable lines just because it's easier to know "chess truth" in those cases. 

Perhaps you play above Marin's level.  I don't, and so I have found that many of his observations are informative, insightful and yes, potentially useful.  That's really what someone gets from this work: the chance to listen to a GM opine about this and that, with particular reference to the chosed 1...e5 systems but also with some broader implications.  Personally when I encounter a GM sharing his ideas, I'm inclined to shut up and listen, but if you don't like it, fine: go fire up you data base and pore over the latest red-hot theory, if you think that's the best way to improve your game.   

Marin is quite up front about saying that the lines he presents are simply ones that he understands and likes.  You may insist that only works that treat the very latest GM practice are worth reading, but I think that that's a narrow attitude that tends to cut one's chess education short.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #33 - 07/17/07 at 19:51:49
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/17/07 at 19:10:17:
krugman wrote on 07/16/07 at 07:29:07:
I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".

I was so satisfied with my copy I gave it away! Huh Undecided


I would not advice fellow GM authors to criticize other authors in such a sarcastic way.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #32 - 07/17/07 at 19:10:17
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krugman wrote on 07/16/07 at 07:29:07:
I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".

I was so satisfied with my copy I gave it away! Huh Undecided
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #31 - 07/16/07 at 07:29:07
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Well, I have just bought Marin's books, and although I am also a bit disappointed by the fact that he didn't choose more "active " variations of the Chigorin (like the exd4 then cxd4 lines for instance), I must say that I really enjoy going through the history of a given variation: that way you can really understand why some moves are played, and why some are not.

Furthermore, I see Marin as an old-fashioned author  (i.e. does not use the comp or databases a lot) which is quite good for analysing old games (as in Chess legends for insatnce) but maybe less so for opening books. It might explain why his two books on the open games are relatively less good than his previous works; still, I am rather happy with my purchase since I really enjoy reading Marin's prose.
Of course, I understand that this might not be enough for some people and I perfectly understand all the criticism he has received.However, given the lack of really good alternatives for the open games (except, maybe Emms' book which is a bit dated, above all in the Scotch...), I think Marin's books deserved to be read; at least "Beating the Open Games".
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #30 - 07/08/07 at 02:23:21
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 22:48:25:
And I gotta tell ya, as someone who played e4 for a long time, this kind of thing wouldn't ever frighten me.


I cannot entirely disagree with your apparent preference of other Black defensive setups.

However, while I wholeheartedly agree the Rubinstein defensive setup is not terribly frightening, you may find that it's also not easy to generate winning chances for White. True, Black will also find it tough to generate real chances once White stabilizes the Queen side. IMO, the sterile nature of the middle game rather than the lack of quality of the variation, explains its infrequent occurrence at the master level and above. After 12. -Nc6, White plays 13. d5 in only about half of the games (Black retreats to d8 in the majority of these games). Many White players prefer Fischer's 13. dxc5 to fight for an advantage.

I wonder, after the queen side has stabilized with 14.a4! and 15.b4!, what would you suggest as a plan for white? Breaking down the fortress is not a walk in the park! I am nearly 2300 and remember having a heck of a time beating a 2100 player in a 40/2 game.

In recent 2400+ practice, Marin himself used this setup to draw relatively easily. In the 1973 Russian Championship, Spassky used it against Karpov and was undefeated in a very complex fight (although admittedly improvements for White have been suggested in the early middlegame). At that time, these two players represented the chess elite playing in a very prestigious tournament. I'd dare say that any line played at that level without being refuted is NOT third rate.

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #29 - 07/07/07 at 23:48:05
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I'm sure the book is useful, probably in the areas of the early d5 push for white and other things...but Marin's judgement (after the last book) is a little suspect and then he chooses to spend valuable space on a line I don't consider very attractive for 99% of people who buy books...at least Bd7 seems to have more in common with the cxd4 lines.

I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me better to get a book with lots of wordless analysis and theory on an opening with winning chances than an excellent explanatory book on a crumple-zone opening.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #28 - 07/07/07 at 23:24:39
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/07/07 at 22:48:25:
So there's absolutely no way I'm right, and I know nothing, huh? How terribly friendly you are... Huh


I never said you "know nothing."  You could be Tiviakov for all I know.   Smiley

To clarify, my last comment was not directed towards your general understanding of chess or the line in question.  I just have my doubts about judging the value of a book without having read it.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #27 - 07/07/07 at 22:48:25
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So there's absolutely no way I'm right, and I know nothing, huh? How terribly friendly you are... Huh

You assume I'm saying things I'm not. You're having a genral discussion of old openings and I'm having a specific one. I'm willing to say when I'm wrong and I'm willing to say when an old idea might work (Bd7 Petrosian), I just think there's not much play on the queenside for black in this Rubenstein thing based on praxis, which yes, is the ultimate authority here. I don't understand the accusation that I do my thinking with databases, because I do my thinking at the board -- I just prefer to stand on the shoulders of some pretty tall people so I have an idea of what I'm doing in the middlegame.

Quote:
..use of old ideas in novel surroundings.


Using an old idea might be good, by say transporting one move or idea into another variation, this opening is more along the lines of old wine in a new bottle. In this case the bottle is a newly published book people have been anticipating from a GM with a (not undeserved) fanbase.

And I don't have to be a GM to be skeptical of his choices or characterize them as less than fantastic.

And I gotta tell ya, as someone who played e4 for a long time, this kind of thing wouldn't ever frighten me.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #26 - 07/07/07 at 17:01:00
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You sure know an awful lot about something you know little about.  Undecided  Actually one of the things I like about Marin is that he sometimes goes down paths that are less covered in existing literature.  I actually like to listen to people who think without a database, as they might actually have something new or interesting to say, however flawed it may potentially be.

By the way, innovation often occurs through the use of old ideas in novel surroundings.  This is the type of thing that you cannot easily predict with statistics.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #25 - 07/07/07 at 12:41:54
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I can tell a lot by using reason before an event occurs, as in chess, politics, physics, sports, etc...Saying I need to spend money to criticize an author's choices is ...well not the best rebuttal.

The fact is, these books are let downs and some people don't want to face that.

Quote:
Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0  
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..


I have no doubt that the plan occurs in classic games. I also have no doubt the plan sucks.

I always look at recent games of 2400+ to see what they're playing and how they're doing in certain lines. I can see if there are any similarities. Postny doesn't follow the plan at all, while most of the rest do play f6, some f5 like Postny, and a few find their own way. There certainly does seem to be a lot of international-level players puting their knight on g7 and f7. I just wasn't HONESTLY aware that was the plan. I wasn't saying 'Oh Really?" to be sarcastic, I was being honest. I can't believe that's the plan. It also is occurring less in recent games.  I dunno..to me seems like positional play through process of elimination (the knight's doing more on d7 as in a Breyer thsan on f7). However, I agree with you that this is the standard plan in this variation. It just doesn't impress me.


I just don't think this opening choice is anything other than third rate.

In anycase my point is that the plan isn't a shining example of efficiency or much of a winning attempt. The score for this (on Chesslab and my Chessbase) isn't great, either.

And as you can clearly see, the plan with a4 and b4 nullfies any advantage on the queenside black may think he has.


Some times old lines are good, sometimes not. If people aren't playing something, the question is "Why not?'



Quote:
"...counting pages?"


Book reviewers do this all the time, even on the quick. Neither Watson nor Hansen read every page of every book they encounter, and reasoned coverage is an issue. I think it's relevant that he chooses to spend more pulp on the evil of two lessers.

Quote:
Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read...


I've talked about Houska, and Sverre's, both of which I own and read. I don't need to read a book to criticize an author's chosen focus, since the variations are readily available (and stats). I can also see how easy it would be for the good club player to outplay a slightly lower rated opponent in this opening, or outplay a higher one.  The former is possible if the lower rated doesn't know the plan, but the latter would be difficult indeed. Plus, there's nothing really on the queenside, and the Kingside often comes under fire ( I don't believe in this fortress thing).

You guys are over looking the obvious anyway: I started off by saying that this book cannot teach us about the Ruy Lopez, just about the plans within the chosen subset, and here we are proving it. The usual ideas in the closed do not involve Nf7, and f6. That's what the ideas are in the Rubenstein, but what about the ideas in the cxd4 variation, which bears more in common with other Spanish types like Adams-Ivanchuk Lucerne '89 or Svidler-Shirov Tal Memorial 2006.  These are the kind of games I think of when I think of the Ruy Lopez, or the games from both Fischer-Spassky matches.

I guess I was wrong when I thought that I thought this f6 and Ng7 business wasn't standard, but hey...it still isn't proper Lopez practice to me and definitely is not something to write home about. I still think it would have been better to focus on Bd7 or cxd4...

  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #24 - 07/07/07 at 05:10:31
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 18:55:45:
The real problem is that he spends double the number of pages talking about the Rubenstein than he does the Petrosian.

I find all this talk that this will help the reader understand anything but third tier lines vague and subjective.

...

Again, I hate to be so blunt, but I think "fashion" here is a euphemism for "accepted theory." If something is out of fashion, it's just not capriciousness at play, there's usually a damn good reason people don't play it! How about something called "winning chances?" I don't know why Postny chose to play this variation, but his games had demonstrated that f6 isn't so hot (he played f5 against Korneev) and that the queenside is nothing special for black. Of course, it's a different story if white doesn't know about the a4/b4 plan.


Have you even read the book at all (besides the intro and counting pages)?  If current theory is all you need, why read books?  Smiley

Even you if don't read, talking about books you haven't read is almost as much of a waste of time as actually reading the darned things, so take the high road:  ...the Hikaru way!
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #23 - 07/07/07 at 04:46:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 18:55:45:
Quote:
AFAIK this is a standard defensive setup for Black in the Chigorin. After Black has played g6 to keep White's Knight on g3 (or e3) off f5, a kingside fortress is created with f6 and Nf6-e8-g7, Nc6-d8-f7.


Really?


Really. Search any database for games after say, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0
9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2 Nc6 13.d5 Nd8 14.a4 Rb8 and you'll see many feature this "standard" maneuver. Classic games include one or more Bogoljubow - Rubinstein encounters, Smyslov-Levenfish, Schmid-Smyslov, Keres-Vidmar, Evans-Rossolimo, Karpov-Spasski, etc..

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #22 - 07/06/07 at 18:55:45
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Quote:
AFAIK this is a standard defensive setup for Black in the Chigorin. After Black has played g6 to keep White's Knight on g3 (or e3) off f5, a kingside fortress is created with f6 and Nf6-e8-g7, Nc6-d8-f7.


Really? I used to play the white side and I never saw anybody playing that against me. The standard idea is to play g6 and fianchetto the dark-square, but putting the knight's on g7 and f7? Also, black hardly ever gets to play f5 unless white has made a mistake or maybe in the fianchetto variation (Kramnik tried in the Berlin but didn't stop to control g5 first so he lost).

I've looked at some games where black doesn't play f5, but f6 with the knight on g7, horrible. It certainly is not a fortress. In most of the games played at high level in the Rubenstein, white almost always closes most of the queenside (the a file maybe opened, but that's for white not black!) via a4 first, then b4. Black ends up rather behind the curve on that side as well. He can create a passed pawn and try to get through the blockade, but that's it. I'm talking about IM and GM praxis here. I'm certainly not relying on my games.


Quote:
Opening preparation for the most popular openings generally is about studying the middlegames or even endgames that arise from them.  


Yes and no. It certainly applies to the typical middlegame positions. Marin's are not. At best, it's the long way around Robin Hood's barn studying middlegames from a variation you might not want to play in a must win situation.

And I think there's a tolerance of Sverre's and Marin's work that is unacceptable because the works fall under the heading of "Ruy Lopez" the king of openings!

If I told you, you could learn a lot from my book on the O'Kelly Sicilian that you could apply to your scheveningen, you'd laugh in my face. Or at least you should. You don't take a sub-standard variation and then claim it's going to help you play different mainline variations.

The real problem is that he spends double the number of pages talking about the Rubenstein than he does the Petrosian.

I find all this talk that this will help the reader understand anything but third tier lines vague and subjective.

Houska's book, by the way, contains lines where black castles kingside. The book isn't about avoidance of theory, but finding good playable lines within a golden mean (not too much theory, but not wimping out or passive either).

Quote:
The reason that you will learn the most by playing the mainlines...


But this is what I'm arguing for, not against! In his book Marin says

Quote:
I intentionally avoided fashionable systems. Experience has taught me that fashion is an unpredictable and capricious lady; after certain variations have been well-enough forgotten, they might come back into the limelight. Secondly (and more importantly I would say), the task of catching the very essence of the position in lines where theory advances with big steps (not necessarily in the correct direction) is rather difficult. It is much easier to take a photo or sketch a portrait of a virtually immobile image than to describe a highly animated scene.Instead, I have preferred to choose variations with a very long past, involving the names of great players including world champions. This will give us the opportunity of following the evolution of thought processes through the years. It is also supposed to lend some stability to the theoretical conclusions given in the following pages. Truths that have required years or even decades to unfold completely to human understanding, and involve names like Rubinstein, Botvinnik, Keres, Smyslov, Petrosian or Karpov will hardly ever be shaken by practice or with the help of a computer.


In order to be fair to Marin, I put the whole quote.

Again, I hate to be so blunt, but I think "fashion" here is a euphemism for "accepted theory." If something is out of fashion, it's just not capriciousness at play, there's usually a damn good reason people don't play it! How about something called "winning chances?" I don't know why Postny chose to play this variation, but his games had demonstrated that f6 isn't so hot (he played f5 against Korneev) and that the queenside is nothing special for black. Of course, it's a different story if white doesn't know about the a4/b4 plan.

Marin gives third or fourth tier variations that are passive and don't give black much to look forward to (Yeah, I'm really glad Petrosian got draws, let's forget that his Qd7 Winawer, Old Indian, risky inerpretation of the Kan aren't really played anymore).

Marin is simply putting a happy spin on this by connecting the variations to names (The Marshall variation in the French sucks and so does Rubenstein's Ne5 in the Semi-Slav for white so names don't impress me, Mike) and by attempting to make these unpopular variations look good by virtue of their unpopularity -- subjective.

I look at whether I think his variations are good objectively, and although the Petrosian variation makes some sense as a backup, the Rubenstein as a main recommendation does not.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #21 - 07/06/07 at 17:27:57
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Quote:
How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?


General principles will not bring you far in chess. Combined with other skills like good calculating ability or good endgame play they are useful, but not in their own right.

The "principles" that will help you finding a good middlegame plan are those that are specific for a particular branch of positions - quite frequently principles connected with a particular opening variation. Opening preparation for the most popular openings generally is about studying the middlegames or even endgames that arise from them.

I have not read Houska's book but assuming that it concentrates on the classical Caro Kann I would believe that a major theme is the middlegames or endgames that can arise from the mainline 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Nf3 Nd7 7. h4 h6 8. h5 Bh7 9. Bd3 Bxd3 10. Qxd3 and in particular the line 10...e6 11. Bd2 Ngf6 12. O-O-O Qc7 13. Ne4 O-O-O 14. g3 Nxe4 15. Qxe4. It is of course possible to pick a less popular but fully playable alternative for Black in order to avoid some theory but without a discussion of the typical middlegame positions the reader can hardly be expected to play the opening well.

The reason that you will learn the most by playing the mainlines is mainly that it has been tested and annotated by some of the world's leading players and theorists.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #20 - 07/06/07 at 15:20:15
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 06:10:10:
the knight going to d8 and then to f7..I mean common!?).


Actually, AFAIK this is a standard defensive setup for Black in the Chigorin. After Black has played g6 to keep White's Knight on g3 (or e3) off f5, a kingside fortress is created with f6 and Nf6-e8-g7, Nc6-d8-f7. With the kingside secured, Black then proceeds to win on the queenside. (At least, that would be the idea.  Wink )

I reckon a well-prepared Black player is likely to score well with such an approach at the sub-2300 level and am eagerly awaiting my copy of Marin's Spanish book.

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #19 - 07/06/07 at 06:10:10
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This reminds me of what Sverre said about his book (" Worthy of Study" entry at http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/).

I bought his book and consider it almost useless. I know, I'm harsh but hey I wanna be honest. He made me turn to Houska's Caro book, which I'm very happy with.

I read Silman's review of the book (RL:Guide For Black) after I had already ordered the book, and was telling myself he was wrong (I was shopping for an alternative to my usual French). However, after receiving my copy, I realized he was spot - on in his critique.

The Flohr is just too theoretical and wild for my taste. Even the supposedly less theory-driven Qd7 variation is still crazy and sharp. Some people like memorizing razor-sharp stuff, not I.

He defended his book on his blog by trying to say that a study of it would improve one's ability in the Spanish game/chess. I think that's nonsense. Nobody studies the Najdorf's lines to learn chess, but to learn the Najdorf, period. How can someone claim that a highly theoretical variation-specific opening will teach me general principles?

Perhaps the Marin book is different. I don't really know. Still, I wonder what the idea is in wasting space recommending something that amounts to an inferior approach (the knight going to d8 and then to f7..I mean common!?). The Petrosian looks kind of interesting and I see that Ibragimov likes it, so it's not all bad. This could prove useful. I'm just being skeptical because of what I've read from Kosten (On "Beating the Open Games" )and because I expected other things from all these books.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #18 - 07/06/07 at 01:55:27
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ghenghisclown wrote on 07/06/07 at 00:54:12:
I have to say, these do not seem like inspired choices. The Nc6 Rubenstein system seems particularly bad. I guess the knight is going to f7 after the pawn goes to f5, but it doesn't fill me with confidence, putting the knight on that square.

Anything wrong with cxd4 and Rd8 in the Chigorin?


Don't reject Marin's books on account of his specific recommendations.  There's a wealth of chess insight offered in them; at least there is in his 1...e5 book and I expect this one is the same.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #17 - 07/06/07 at 00:54:12
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I have to say, these do not seem like inspired choices. The Nc6 Rubenstein system seems particularly bad. I guess the knight is going to f7 after the pawn goes to f5, but it doesn't fill me with confidence, putting the knight on that square.

Anything wrong with cxd4 and Rd8 in the Chigorin?
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #16 - 07/02/07 at 01:16:50
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/01/07 at 23:06:19:
Yes, thanks guys for this useful info.

The Petrosian line looks interesting.  But after 12..Bd7, I was rather hoping for coverage of 13.Nf1 cxd4 14.cxd4 a la the famous games, Em. Lasker-Ed Lasker and Tal-Hjartarson.  Does Marin mention this line at all?  Does it have a name?

LeeRoth


Nope, Marin does not cover this, although he mentions it in passing as a modern interpretation of the line. However,  Marin points out that the main problem in the Chigorin is the misplacement of the Black QN. Therefore on 13. Nf1, he covers 13...Nc4 in order to solve this problem immediately.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #15 - 07/01/07 at 23:06:19
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Yes, thanks guys for this useful info.

The Petrosian line looks interesting.  But after 12..Bd7, I was rather hoping for coverage of 13.Nf1 cxd4 14.cxd4 a la the famous games, Em. Lasker-Ed Lasker and Tal-Hjartarson.  Does Marin mention this line at all?  Does it have a name?

LeeRoth
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #14 - 06/29/07 at 08:37:35
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To Mr.Greet, and Mortal G, thanks a lot guys for the info - always appreciate guys answering my questions. You rock...  Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #13 - 06/28/07 at 16:29:15
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I just got my copy and I really like the way Marin traces the development of the lines. I find it very useful in building understanding.

Quote:
Thx for the information Andrew (Greet).

I thought Karpov had basically extinguished 12.......nc6 as Black had too passive a game.

As for 12.......Bd7 could be an interesting choice as hardly any top players have used it- I've got a feeling Petrosian was it's last main advocate and held Kasparov with Black quite comfortably in Garry's youth !



According to Marin, ".....the system of development designed by Rubinstein one century ago is perfectly playable and that the oblivion into which it has fallen is only due to the well-known cruelty of Lady Fashion."

About the Petrosian system he writes "The situation is less clear in the Petrosian system...the fact that the play has less forcing character...leaves more room for mistakes. I would call the Petrosian system rather dangerous teritory for the pratical player (with either colour) but a very enjoyable universe for the analyst."

  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #12 - 06/28/07 at 12:22:15
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Quote:
As for 12.......Bd7 could be an interesting choice as hardly any top players have used it- I've got a feeling Petrosian was it's last main advocate and held Kasparov with Black quite comfortably in Garry's youth !

It's quite a list he drew against in that line: Tal, Korchnoi, Kasparov, Ljubo, Karpov and Velimirovic Shocked
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #11 - 06/28/07 at 09:11:15
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Thx for the information Andrew (Greet).

I thought Karpov had basically extinguished 12.......nc6 as Black had too passive a game.

As for 12.......Bd7 could be an interesting choice as hardly any top players have used it- I've got a feeling Petrosian was it's last main advocate and held Kasparov with Black quite comfortably in Garry's youth !

  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #10 - 06/27/07 at 20:15:53
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Hmm, I think I'll pick this up to help me understand the White side and maybe, just maybe, one day I'll start playing 1. ...e5  Shocked
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #9 - 06/27/07 at 15:10:23
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I received my copy a couple of days ago. Though I have not yet scrutinised the book in great detail, I can report that I am very impressed with what I have read so far. He recommends two lines for Black in the Chigorin after 11.d4 Qc7 12.Nbd2. First there is Rubinsteins's system with 12...Nc6 (meeting 13.d5 with 13...Nd8) and he also covers Petrosion's variation 12...Bd7.

Marin devotes a great deal of space to the historical evolution of these variations, which helps the reader to understand how the current main lines came to be recognised as such. Then there is the usual analysis section with very detailed coverage. Like I said, I haven't been through everything with a fine toothcomb but from what I have seen it looks excellent.
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #8 - 06/27/07 at 08:13:14
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To anyone who has the book- which line of the Chigorin is being recommended and whether it is any good .

My guess is cd cd and Nc6 but would be good to know for definite.

Finally, I thought Marin was an Open Lopez defender rather the Chigorin..
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #7 - 06/26/07 at 11:14:24
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This is all I know at the moment. I will receive the book in a few days.

Quote:
A Spanish Repertoire for Black provides a world-class repertoire against 1.e4. In his previous book, Beating the Open Games, Mihail Marin dealt with White's options up to 3.Bb5. Now Marin provides all the answers for Black after 4.Ba4.

Such a high-level repertoire has rarely been published for a mass audience before, as grandmasters usually prefer to keep their secrets. In fact, Marin's understanding is so renowned that he has worked as a second for the top woman player in the world, Judit Polgar. The complexity of the material could have been daunting, but Marin is also a master of explaining profound ideas to a wide audience.


Foreword



In Beating the Open Games I started building a complete repertoire for Black based on 1...e5 as an answer to 1.e4, but space limitations forced me to leave the story unfinished halfway. The present book is a logical sequel of my previous work by providing Black with a coherent system of development after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6.

Since these two books can be considered as complementary parts of the same whole, my general approach has been the same in many ways, but there are some significant differences, too.

I have structured each chapter in the same way as in the previous book. The introductory part deals with the general aspects as well as with the historical evolution of the variation. The theoretical section contains detailed analysis, which aims to be one or two steps ahead of the current stage of theory.

Throughout the book, I have put a strong emphasis on the notion of development, which offers the most reliable guidelines in any open game. It is easier and more constructive to follow just a few general recommendations about development than remember a large mess of variations. At the same time, rules tend to have many exceptions, which frequently require combining common sense with concrete thinking. I have aimed to highlight and explain the most important situations where this latter aspect becomes vital.

The main difference compared to the general structure of most other opening books consists of reversing the natural order of the chapters. Usually, books start with the sidelines and examine the main systems at the end. To a certain extent, this is the approach I had chosen for Beating the Open Games, too. I have examined Whites alternatives to 2.Nf3 first, then the deviations from 3.Bb5 and only in the end the Exchange Variation. The need for a formal line-up was justified by the fact that each of the openings examined there had its own individuality, with more or less equal rights with the others. Once we have entered the territory of the Spanish Game, the situation becomes different. Each of White's attempts to deviate from the main stream implies a small concession and simplifies Blacks defensive task. The main line is by far the most complex from a strategic point of view. Once its basic ideas have been assimilated, the other variations become easier to understand. This aspect has convinced me to arrange the systems in what I consider an order of decreasing strategic complexity. Admittedly, a certain amount of subjectivity was involved, but I believe that the general structure is quite practical: when examining certain "side-lines" I have frequently made reference to positions from previous chapters. For the same reasons, the first chapters are also the longest. In addition, certain variations are unpopular and inoffensive at the same time, which makes detailed analysis unnecessary.


Although such openings as the Scotch, the Italian Game, and the Four Knights Game have become increasingly popular over the past few decades and require from Black a relatively high degree of accuracy, the Ruy Lopez remains unchallenged in its privileged position of queen of the open games. This is not just a consequence of respect for tradition, but instead is due to the rich strategie content of the fight that characterizes the Ruy Lopez. Mastering the subtleties of this eternally young opening is synonymous with being a strong positional player. I hope that this book will help the reader make progress on this territory.


Finally, I want to express my gratitude to:

Valentin Stoica, who helped me to prepare the theoretical material for the Yates System, the Worrall Attack, the Delayed Exchange variation and the d3-systems;

Jacob Aagaard, who suggested possible ways of improving the initial versions of the first chapters;

My wife, Luiza, for her patient and kind support.


Bucharest, 1st of January 2007.


http://www.qualitychessbooks.com/uploadimages/39243.22576664353A%20spanish%20rep...

  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #6 - 06/26/07 at 09:33:56
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What I want to know is, does anybody think this book suffers from the same problems that "Beating" suffers from? In particular, what exactly is recommended and are there any glaring omissions?
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #5 - 06/12/07 at 00:50:13
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My order went through fine.
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #4 - 06/11/07 at 12:35:59
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I sent a mail to Jacob Aagard and he said he will sent my error message to webmaster.

  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #3 - 06/11/07 at 12:25:45
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Hello,

Links seem ok to me, as far as I can go without actually buying... Probably best contacting Quality Chess direct if still have problems.


Bye John S
  
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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #2 - 06/11/07 at 12:22:15
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Many thanks MarinFan!  Smiley
  

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Re: A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
Reply #1 - 06/11/07 at 12:17:48
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Hello,

The link is

http://www.qualitychessbooks.com/uploadimages/39243.22576664353A%20spanish%20rep...

They have either fixed the link, most likely, or the security settings on your browser is too high.

Bye John S

p.s opps sorry didn't read properly you are trying to buy, will check that too!
  
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A Spanish Repertoire for Black- Marin
06/11/07 at 12:12:48
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The second book of Marin to complete the repertoire for Black against 1...e5 is out soon.
I think this book and The Ruy Lopez a Guide for Black from Sverre are the best books on the Spanish available on 2007.
I tryed to buy the Marin book from Quality Chess page but it was impossible because I saw this server error page always  Angry  :

Server Error in '/' Application.


Runtime Error
Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.

Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a <customErrors> tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This <customErrors> tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".


<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

<configuration>
    <system.web>
       <customErrors mode="Off"/>
    </system.web>
</configuration>


Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's <customErrors> configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.


<!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->

<configuration>
    <system.web>
       <customErrors mode="RemoteOnly" defaultRedirect="mycustompage.htm"/>
    </system.web>
</configuration>

--------------------------------------

Anyone saw this too?
  

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