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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ponziani (Read 10054 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #27 - 09/19/07 at 20:01:22
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I am still playing a correspondence game in this line, and I dont think I should analyze or discuss variations and postions while the game is still in progress.


Fair enough.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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micawber
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #26 - 09/19/07 at 19:52:19
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I am still playing a correspondence game in the exchange Spanish line, and I dont think I should analyze or discuss variations and postions while the game is still in progress.

On 4.Bb5 leaks:

One of the leaks concerns the analysis of Jussupov-Sokolov, 1994

4.Bb5,dxe4 (4....f6 is more solid) 5.Nxe5,Qg5 6.Qa4,Qxe5 ?!
7.Bxc6,bxc 8.Qxc+,Kd8 9.Qxa8, Nf6 10.Na3,Bc5!? 11.b4,Bxf2 ?! 12.Kxf2,e3+ 13.dxe3,Ne4+ 14.Ke1!
and now Emms analyses:                       (the original game continued with 14...Ke7?!)
14...Qxc3+ 15.Ke2,Nf6 16.Bd2,Qxa3 resulting in the following position:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=Q1bk3r/p1p2ppp/5n2/8/1P6/...
Q1bk3r/p1p2ppp/5n2/8/1P6/q3P3/P2BK1PP/R6R w - -

Emms continues from this postion with 17.Rhd1 and demonstrates black can draw with 17...Ke7
bringing up his last reserves to reach a perpetual.
But how on earth is black going to free himself after 17.Rhc1! +-


  
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TopNotch
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #25 - 09/19/07 at 19:44:58
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@Topnotch.

"Try 3.Bb5!?" ....."What's the real story behind this line".
The real story is: Forget about the Ponziani, try the Spanish instead! (3.Bb5 instead of 3.c3)  Roll Eyes

The lines after 3...d5 are a load of crap?
Could you be a little more specific:
Do you mean the lines against 4.Qa4
or the lines against 4.Bb5 (and no this is not the Spanish)
In the 4.Bb5 lines there are at least two large 'leaks' in Emms analysis.


I mean the 4.Bb5 line and yes there is at least one big 'leak' in Both Emms and Davies. In Davies case, his error is all the more puzzling considering his book came out later than Emms, whom by the way he seems to have simply copied in places.

While I have your ear micawber is there some reason you are avoiding that Exchange Ruy Lopez question posed by both myself and Mr. Kosten?  Huh

Toppy Smiley

Postscript: Re-reading my original post again I realised I erroneously typed 3.Bb5 instead of the intended 4.Bb5. My apologies for that, I misinterpreted Fluffy's humorous post which I assumed was to play 3.Bb5 in the Ponziani, but in fact he was saying play the Ruy instead. My bad. Embarrassed
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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micawber
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #24 - 09/19/07 at 18:44:40
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@Topnotch.

"Try 3.Bb5!?" ....."What's the real story behind this line".
The real story is: Forget about the Ponziani, try the Spanish instead! (3.Bb5 instead of 3.c3)  Roll Eyes

The lines after 3...d5 are a load of crap?
Could you be a little more specific:
Do you mean the lines against 4.Qa4
or the lines against 4.Bb5 (and no this is not the Spanish)
In the 4.Bb5 lines there are at least two large 'leaks' in Emms analysis.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #23 - 09/19/07 at 01:47:26
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BigBen wrote on 08/19/07 at 20:23:30:
Hi TK,
        Where can I see this? or do I have to part with some £££££ first lolol  Grin ... I would really like to compare what you thought with the work I have done on the line since the game

Regards
Tony

GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/12/07 at 23:13:50:
BigBen wrote on 07/06/07 at 09:36:41:
Also I recently played a certain Mr Kosten  Smiley in a Freestyle tournament, the game is below

Actually I had analysed this in the June update!



Nice try Benny Boy. No money no honey Cheesy

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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TopNotch
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #22 - 09/19/07 at 01:41:59
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fluffy wrote on 06/20/07 at 21:22:31:
3...d5 is better for Black. check Emms' and Kaufman's books. they are right. Try 3.Bb5!?


After facing this in some bullet games online, I realise that the documented theory on this line is for want of a better phrase, a load of crap. Davies and Emms books included. So what is the real story after 3.Bb5, this question has been asked in this thread already but no answer was forthcoming.

Does anyone want to share?

Toppy Smiley

PostScript: Anyone know what happened to Eric Moskow, he like LDZ added errr...a certain kind of spice to the forum that I sorely miss.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #21 - 08/28/07 at 21:56:16
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BigBen wrote on 08/19/07 at 20:23:30:
Hi TK,
        Where can I see this? or do I have to part with some £££££ first lolol  Grin ... I would really like to compare what you thought with the work I have done on the line since the game

Yes, I'm afraid it is for subscriber's eyes only!
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #20 - 08/19/07 at 22:11:18
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Maybe 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 c3 d5 4 Da4 Dd6
  
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BigBen
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #19 - 08/19/07 at 20:23:30
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Hi TK,
        Where can I see this? or do I have to part with some £££££ first lolol  Grin ... I would really like to compare what you thought with the work I have done on the line since the game

Regards
Tony

GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/12/07 at 23:13:50:
BigBen wrote on 07/06/07 at 09:36:41:
Also I recently played a certain Mr Kosten  Smiley in a Freestyle tournament, the game is below

Actually I had analysed this in the June update!

  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #18 - 07/12/07 at 23:13:50
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BigBen wrote on 07/06/07 at 09:36:41:
Also I recently played a certain Mr Kosten  Smiley in a Freestyle tournament, the game is below

Actually I had analysed this in the June update!
  
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fluffy
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #17 - 07/06/07 at 15:06:02
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Markovich wrote on 07/06/07 at 12:14:41:
fluffy wrote on 06/20/07 at 21:22:31:
3...d5 is better for Black. check Emms' and Kaufman's books. they are right. Try 3.Bb5!?


What do you advise then against 4. Qa4?  The variations with ...Ne7 and ...f6 seem chaotic to me.  I've studied 4...Bd7 but I am unsure of Black's comp.  When I tried this gambit in an important CC tournament game, I did not obtain full comp but was lucky later on when my opponent, with some endgame advantage, offered the draw.



4...Bd7. Kaufman and Emms both give this (although the details are different). It is much easier tp play Black. Come on, 3.c3, 4.Qa4? this is not the way to play chess.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #16 - 07/06/07 at 12:22:33
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/06/07 at 09:41:46:
What about the "differed" Ponziani 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Qe2! Nf6 4.c3! Now d5 is about of question and e5 is protected so after something like 4...a6 (4...Bc5? 5.b4!) 5.d4 cxd4 6.e5! Nd5 7.Qd5 and white is much better! Thoughts?


Yes, my thoughts are that 3. Qe2 is a ridiculous move.  For one thing, after 3...Nf6 4. c3, why is 4...d5, intending recapture with the queen, out of the question?  Beyond that, Black has 3...Bc5 or even just 3...d6.
  

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Re: Ponziani
Reply #15 - 07/06/07 at 12:14:41
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fluffy wrote on 06/20/07 at 21:22:31:
3...d5 is better for Black. check Emms' and Kaufman's books. they are right. Try 3.Bb5!?


What do you advise then against 4. Qa4?  The variations with ...Ne7 and ...f6 seem chaotic to me.  I've studied 4...Bd7 but I am unsure of Black's comp.  When I tried this gambit in an important CC tournament game, I did not obtain full comp but was lucky later on when my opponent, with some endgame advantage, offered the draw.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #14 - 07/06/07 at 09:41:46
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What about the "differed" Ponziani 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Qe2! Nf6 4.c3! Now d5 is about of question and e5 is protected so after something like 4...a6 (4...Bc5? 5.b4!) 5.d4 cxd4 6.e5! Nd5 7.Qd5 and white is much better! Thoughts?
  
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Re: Ponziani
Reply #13 - 07/06/07 at 09:36:41
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Hi,
    Rather than play 7. exf6ep which I think is OK for black I play 7.Nxd4 and sac a pawn if needed ... I play it online (not had the chance OTB) and my last two games are below.

The Wizard - Wurmi 2 [C44]
Rated game 23.12.2006

1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.Nxd4 Nxd4 8.cxd4 b6 9.Qc2 Bb7 10.Nc3 Nxc3 11.bxc3 g6

12.h4 Qe7 13.f3 Qf7 14.Qa4 Bc6 15.Qa6 Be7 16.Bh6 Qe6 17.Kf2 Kf7 18.Bd3 Rhb8 19.Bg5 h5 20.Bc4 Bd5 21.Bxd5 Qxd5

22.Bxe7 Kxe7 23.a4 Re8 24.Qd3 Kf7 25.Rhe1 d6 26.c4 Qa5 27.f4 d5 28.Rec1 c6 29.Kg3 Re6 30.c5 Rb8 31.Rab1 Rb7

32.Qc2 Qa6 33.Kh2 Kg7 34.Rb4 bxc5 35.Rxb7+ Qxb7 36.Qxc5 Kf7 37.Qc3 Qe7 38.g3 Qb7 39.Rc2 Qa6 40.a5 Qb5 41.Kg2 Qa6

42.Rb2 Qc4 43.Qxc4 dxc4 44.Rc2 Ke8 45.Rxc4 Kd7 46.Rb4 c5 47.Rb7+ Kc8 48.Rxa7 cxd4 49.Kf2 Kb8 50.Rd7 Ra6 51.Rxd4

Kc7 52.Rd5 Rc6 53.Ke3 Rc1 54.Rd6 Rc3+ 55.Kf2 Rc2+ 56.Kf1 g5 57.hxg5 h4 58.g6 Rc3 59.a6 h3 60.a7 Kb7 61.g7 Rc8

62.Rh6 Rc1+ 63.Kf2 Rc2+ 64.Kg1 Rg2+ 65.Kf1 Rxg3 66.Rh8 Kxa7 67.g8Q Rxg8 68.Rxg8 Kb6 69.e6 h2 70.Kg2 Kc5 71.e7

h1N 72.Kxh1 Kc6 73.e8Q+ Kb6 74.Qe6+ Kb5 75.Rb8+ Kc5 76.Rc8+ Kd4 77.Qe2 Kd5 78.Qe5# 1-0

The Wizard  - Razer63 [C44]
Rated game 23.01.2007

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 6.Qe2 f5 7.Nxd4 Bc5 8.Nd2 Nxd2 9.Bxd2 Nxd4 10.cxd4 Bxd4 11.0-0-0

Qe7 12.f4 d5 13.exd6 cxd6 14.Qb5+ Bd7 15.Qxb7 Rc8+ 16.Kb1 Qe4+ 17.Qxe4+ fxe4 18.Bb4 Bc5 19.Bxc5 Rxc5 20.Rxd6 Bf5

21.Rd4 Ke7 22.Bc4 Kf6 23.b3 g5 24.fxg5+ Kxg5 25.Kc2 Re8 26.Rf1 e3+ 27.Kc3 Bg4 28.Re1 h5 29.h3 Bf5 30.h4+ Kf6

31.Rd6+ Kg7 32.Rd5 Rxd5 33.Bxd5 Bg4 34.Kd4 e2 35.Bf3 Bxf3 36.gxf3 a5 37.Kd3 Rd8+ 38.Kxe2 Rd4 39.Kf2 Rxh4 40.Kg3

Rd4 41.Re5 a4 42.Re4 Rd1 43.Rxa4 Rg1+ 44.Kh4 Kg6 45.Ra5 Rf1 46.Rg5+ Kf6 47.Rxh5 Rxf3 48.Kg4 Rd3 49.Rb5 Ke6 50.a4

Rd4+ 51.Kg5 Rd7 52.a5 Kd6 53.b4 Kc7 54.Rb6 Rd5+ 55.Kf4 Rd1 56.Ke4 Rg1 57.Kd5 Rc1 58.Rg6 Kb7 59.b5 Rd1+ 60.Kc4

Rc1+ 61.Kd3 Rd1+ 62.Kc2 Ra1 63.a6+ Ka7 64.Rg7+ Kb8 65.Kc3 Rb1 66.Kc4 Rc1+ 67.Kd5 Rb1 68.Kc5 Rh1 69.b6 Rh5+

70.Kd4 Rh4+ 71.Ke5 Rh5+ 72.Kf6 Rh6+ 73.Rg6 Rh8 74.Kf7 Rh7+ 75.Rg7 Rh8 76.Rg8+ Rxg8 77.Kxg8 Ka8 78.Kf7 Kb8 79.Ke6

Kc8 80.Kd6 Kd8 81.b7 Ke8 82.Ke6 Kf8 83.b8Q+ Kg7 84.Qg3+ Kh6 85.Kf6 Kh5 86.Qh3# 1-0

Also I recently played a certain Mr Kosten  Smiley in a Freestyle tournament, the game is below

The Wizard - Tony Kosten [C44]
6th PAL/CSS Freestyle Main Tournament playchess.com (5), 02.06.2007

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Ne7 6.Nxe5 Ng6 7.Nxg6 hxg6 8.Nd2 Nxd2 9.Bxd2 Bc5 10.Bd3 d6 11.Qf3 Qe7+ 12.Kf1 Qf6 13.Qxf6 gxf6 14.Re1+ Kf8 15.h4 Rh5 16.c4 Bd4 17.b3 Bd7 18.g3 Re8 19.Rxe8+ Kxe8 20.Kg2 Kf8 21.Kf3 f5 22.b4 Rh8 23.Be3 Bxe3 24.Kxe3 Ke7 25.Kd4 f4 26.gxf4 Kf6 27.f3 Bf5 28.Be4 b6 29.Ke3 Bd7 30.a3 Bf5 31.Rh2 Bd7 32.Kd4 Bf5 33.Rh1 Bd7 34.Bc2 Bf5 35.Ba4 Bc8 36.Bc6 Kf5 37.Ke3 Kf6 38.Kf2 Bf5 39.Kg3 a6 40.Rc1 Rb8 41.Ba4 Ra8 42.Rc3 a5 43.bxa5 Rxa5 44.Bc6 Ra7 45.a4 Bc8 46.Rc1 Bb7 47.Bb5 Ra8 48.Re1 Rg8 49.Ra1 Ra8 50.Rc1 Rd8 51.Rh1 Rh8 52.Kf2 Bc8 53.Rh2 Bf5 54.Kg3 Bc8 55.Ra2 Bb7 56.a5 bxa5 57.Rxa5 Ra8 58.Rxa8 Bxa8 59.Ba4 Bb7 60.Bc2 Bc8 61.Bb1 Bf5 62.Be4 Bd7 63.Kh2 Bc8 64.Kg2 Kg7 65.Kg3 Kf6 66.Kf2 Kg7 67.Bc2 Ba6 68.Bd3 Bc8 69.f5 gxf5 70.f4 Kh6 71.Be2 Bb7 72.Ke3 c5 73.Bf3 Bc8 74.Kd3 Bd7 75.Ke2 f6 76.Kf2 ½-½

Regards
  
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