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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GAmbit (Read 13808 times)
Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #14 - 07/04/07 at 18:36:53
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Well 12...Bg4 is known as a bad mistake.Instead black should play 12...Re8 and after 13.e3 h6!
The best variation for white,which leads to an equal position is: 14.c5 g5!! 15.cxd Qe4! 16.QxQ NxQ 17.dxc7 gxf4 18.gxf Nxc3=
Now it is a really interessting Endgame with equal chances. Wink
"
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Just try to play it against a strong computer and no matter how you will play even ,if you play it like a World Champion it will be really improbable that you will win as white just because of the opening .

That applies to almost any opening. There has even been a match where the computer gave the GM a pawn odd in the starting position and still won. The fact that an engine can beat a human with the Budapest says nothing about the merits of that opening.
"
Yes ,thats right,but I do not say that the BpG is a genius Opening ,only i do not understand why no Top -player is using it,when it is a solid opening without a refutation. Undecided

  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #13 - 07/04/07 at 18:21:47
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After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe Ng4 4. Bf4, white has a 65 % score in Megabase 2007. A pretty convincing advantage for white compared to a few other d-pawn defences in my opinion.
  
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Meat
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #12 - 07/04/07 at 16:47:53
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Sorry, of course d6 is played by black:


1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qe7
8. Qd5 f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 O-O 12. Bg2 Bg4 13. Rab1
*

Still I'd like to hear what you think about this variation and how black should play.

Quote:
Just try to play it against a strong computer and no matter how you will play even ,if you play it like a World Champion it will be really      improbable  that you will win as white just because of the opening .

That applies to almost any opening. There has even been a match where the computer gave the GM a pawn odd in the starting position and still won. The fact that an engine can beat a human with the Budapest says nothing about the merits of that opening.



  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #11 - 07/04/07 at 12:07:08
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Meat ,you made a mistake in your Variation 10d6? Huh
"I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to play this gambit as black, unless he's hoping for a cheap opening trap."
You are totally wrong!Black isnt hoping for traps!But white has just to overcome a few obstacles to survive till the middlegame.
Than there are also a lot ideas for black,not only  attaking ideas,but also positional ideas.
I think it is a little bit cheap to say that an opening is bad,without any knowledge about it.
Just try to play it against a strong computer and no matter how you will play even ,if you play it like a World Champion it will be really      improbable  that you will win as white just because of the opening .All games where black has lost so far,black did  taktikal or strategig mistakes and currently nobody could find a way to refute this opening!

  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #10 - 07/04/07 at 01:17:45
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Meat wrote on 07/03/07 at 21:03:35:
Markovich wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:31:57:
I usually react to 3...Ng4 with 4. e3 Nxe5  5. Nh3, which in my view offers White a very promising middlegame.


Could you post a model game or outline white's plan? I'm not familiar with this line, but it sounds interesting.


I know of three sources on this line:

1)  Chapter 11 of Secrets of Opening Surprise, Vol. 2, "Get an Edge on the Budapest" by Jeroen Bosch
2)  a section on openings in Shereshevsky's The Soviet Chess Conveyor with a few games from one of his students in this line as white
3)  p.182-3 of Burgess and Pedersen's Beating the Indian Defences

It is common to route the knight to f4 where it controls d5 and often white fianchettos with b3.  Depending on how black plays, white sometimes plays an early f4 gaining space on the kingside.  White often aims to slowly increase his space advantage.  I think one advantage of this variation is that the play is less forced and gives white more opportunities to wrong-foot the opponent.  It is not uncommon for white to get a strong positional squeeze when black simply makes normal looking moves.  It's a very nice line to know against a rare defense, since there's not a lot to remember.
  

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Meat
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #9 - 07/03/07 at 21:03:35
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I'm curious:
What do you play against
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bb4+ 6. Nc3 Bxc3 7. bxc3 Qe7 8. Qd5

I always thought this line was better for white theoretically, but difficult to play in practice. For example 8...f6 9. exf6 Nxf6 10. Qd3 d6 11. g3 O-O 12. Bg2 Bg4 13. Rab1 +/=

As I said I think 6. Nbd2 is easier to handle and offers a slight pull to white.

I honestly can't understand why anyone would want to play this gambit as black, unless he's hoping for a cheap opening trap.

Markovich wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:31:57:
I usually react to 3...Ng4 with 4. e3 Nxe5  5. Nh3, which in my view offers White a very promising middlegame.


Could you post a model game or outline white's plan? I'm not familiar with this line, but it sounds interesting.
« Last Edit: 07/04/07 at 16:49:20 by Meat »  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #8 - 07/03/07 at 13:57:21
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Wow,I found a BpG-Game played by Korchnoj on 2007.03.09
[Event "Chelyabinsk Arhipov mem"]
[Site "Chelyabinsk"]
[Date "2007.03.09"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Riazantsev,Alexander"]
[Black "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "A52"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5
9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 Re8 11.Nb3 d6 12.a3 Bc5 13.Nxc5 dxc5 14.Qd5 Ng6 15.Qf3 a5 16.Rad1 Nxf4
1/2

Ok this game is not really interessting,but it is interessting that Korchnoj have tryed it.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #7 - 07/03/07 at 13:50:19
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Well you are right on Nf3 you will have a problem,if you just know the BpG(my new abbreviation Smiley )
But it covers at least 2.c4  Cool  .
"Well, there are probably quite a few openings which, if mastered by All-Seeing Zeus, would be sufficient for his obtaining a draw.The question is of course, how easy this would be for mortals. "
That is right,but the BpG offers more traps and attaking lines.
It is not easy of course to go through all variations,but after a few years you will get it.
Ok I still dont really understand,why this opening should be not good enough for top-players.
You mentioned the line with e3 and Nh3,that is one of the best lines for white,without any traps and wild things on the board.It is a quiet strategig line,so you did a good choice to play it,because a BpG-player wants always to attak and this variation is psychologically uncomfortable for black,also 4.e5-e6 has this effect,but it doesnt give white to many chances to win.
Is here anybody who plays the BpG?
  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #6 - 07/03/07 at 12:31:57
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Udav18 wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:23:34:
The BDG is of course not a winning opening Smiley ,but at least it is a solid opening for black.So the question remains the same:
Why no Top-player plays it?
Maybe they just dont want to learn to much theory,because the BDG is also a really big opening like the Najdorf? Huh


"BDG" is shorthand here for "Blackmar-Diemer Gambit."  I assume you mean, "Budapest Gambit."

Well, if you like the Budapest so much, by all means play it.  I usually react to 3...Ng4 with 4. e3 Nxe5  5. Nh3, which in my view offers White a very promising middlegame.  If I were much of a technician I would probably prefer 4. Nf3 or 4. Bf4.

You say, "...the BDG is a strong weapon, but only, if Black knows almost every variation, with its ideas and traps."  Well, there are probably quite a few openings which, if mastered by All-Seeing Zeus, would be sufficient for his obtaining a draw.  The question is of course, how easy this would be for mortals.

Less to your point, I am curious to know what the Budapest-Gambiteer plays in answer to 2. Nf3.
  

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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #5 - 07/03/07 at 12:23:34
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Ok,maybe i had to be more precisely.I meant the line with 3...Ng4.
OK of course there are also about 100 lines,where black can lose.But,if black knows the right moves in every variation,than it is only white,who can get caught in a trap.
Also Nigel Short did make a lot of mistakes,which were not taktikal mistakes but rather strategikal mistakes!!!
OK i will show you a few:
1.
14...Nd7?!,that is a really passive move,which gives the initiative to white,instead black could play Bb7= and black has an easy and equal play.
2.
15...h5? That is a bad move!It opens the position though white has the pair of bishops,instead he could play Rd8= and his position would be really robust!
3.
19...Re6? Ok that is a clear resignation of nigel,instead he could play19... QxQ and after 20.BxQ Rc8!! 21.Rfd1 Be6 22. Bxc7 Bxc4 =
the position is still equal!!
And so on.
Well in my opinion the BDG is a strong weapon,but only,if black knows almost every variation,with its ideas and traps.
Also this was affirmed by  a few engines made a few matches,where black was Rybka 2.3.2 and white in the first match Fritz10 ,second mach Junior 10 and third Rybka 2.3.2.
The matches were played with 15 games 30min for both.
The results :Fritz10-Rybka2.3.2 : 4 1/2 - 10 1/2 ; Junior10 -Rybka 2.3.2 6-9  ; Rybka2.3.2-Rybka2.3.2  7- 8 !!
The BDG is of course not a winning opening Smiley ,but at least it is a solid opening for black.So the question remains the same:
Why no Top-player plays it?
Maybe they just dont want to learn to much theory,because the BDG is also a really big opening like the Najdorf? Huh
  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #4 - 07/03/07 at 06:07:01
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Udav18 wrote on 07/02/07 at 12:53:04:
Hallo, I play now the BDG with black for more than 4 years,I am now at the level where i know almost every variation and the plans for black.I play at the Level 2100 Elo and my score  in tournament games is now 2 looses 15 draws and 23 wins
In my opinion that is a reasonable score for black and at  playchess.com 89% .
As I know there is no variation for white where white has a big advantage .There is only one where white has a simple play,but black too.
And abot 100 variations where black stands better,has an attak,a taktikal shot or just a strategig won game.
So I dont understand,why no Top-player has this opening in his repertoire.

Nigel Short tried it in his first game against Karpov in the candidates semi-final (1993). He lost though he did not really make a mistake. Karpov just showed how to play against it. After this Short never tried it again in games with normal/classical time control.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1068955
  

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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #3 - 07/02/07 at 21:10:06
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As I know there is no variation for white where white has a big advantage .There is only one where white has a simple play,but black too.
And abot 100 variations where black stands better,has an attak,a taktikal shot or just a strategig won game.


You're joking, right?!
The way you put it one is inclined to think the Budapest is close to winning for black  Grin
  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #2 - 07/02/07 at 20:16:42
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Oh, not absolutely clear, by the way, but I assume we are talking here about the Budapest 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5!? - your post is a little unclear
  

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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #1 - 07/02/07 at 20:13:15
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Just be grateful - if no top players are playing it, then other top players are not spening much time working out how to refute it ...

Seriously, my impression was that if White knows what he is doing, he gets fairly easily (via a number of different variations) to a position in which he has a bit of a pull due to the slight weakness of the d5 square and Black is faced iwth a fairly prospectless defence.

Of course at anything sub GM level the same considerations do not apply - you pretty much always get a chance somewhere along the line, and the better acquainted you are with typical tactical and positional motifs the more likely you are to spot and take that chance.


  

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Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GAmbit
07/02/07 at 12:53:04
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Hallo, I play now the BDG with black for more than 4 years,I am now at the level where i know almost every variation and the plans for black.I play at the Level 2100 Elo and my score  in tournament games is now 2 looses 15 draws and 23 wins
In my opinion that is a reasonable score for black and at  playchess.com 89% .
As I know there is no variation for white where white has a big advantage .There is only one where white has a simple play,but black too.
And abot 100 variations where black stands better,has an attak,a taktikal shot or just a strategig won game.
So I dont understand,why no Top-player has this opening in his repertoire.
  
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