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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GAmbit (Read 13816 times)
Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #29 - 07/07/07 at 08:54:43
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OK lets put this topic ,where it belongs Wink
Also I definitely didnt say that I used rybka for more than 4 years,Maybe you just have to read just exacting.
I said that I did a lot of work on the BpG and I used computers.4 years ago I used Fritz 6 or 7 than fritz 8... Now I use Rybka.
Is it now clear? Huh
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #28 - 07/06/07 at 23:54:59
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Here's a link to the main discussion of the Budapest Gambit in the proper section.  We should probably continue the discussion there!

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1159148601

  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #27 - 07/06/07 at 23:43:45
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Udav18 wrote on 07/06/07 at 21:04:50:
But after a hard work on the BpG for over 4 years,not only by myself ,but also with the help of the strongest computers like Rybka I can say ,that only the line with Bf4;Nc3 gives white an advantage.
You can prove it yourself ,if you have a few years time Grin



Hmm, Udav is good!  He's had strong programs like Rybka for more than 4 years!  4 years ago Fritz 7 was still ruling the rest of the computer world.

Also, perhaps it is time to get the moderators to move this thread to where it belongs.  The discussion will either get much more detailed as we discuss specific variations or it will die off soon.  Either way, I'm sure there are some Budapest experts who don't always look here for discussions on their favorite openings.
  
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DrKibzwang
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #26 - 07/06/07 at 22:33:56
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Victor Moskalenko, who occasionally plays the Budapest as Black, is completing a book on the gambit for New In Chess. (See http://www.newinchess.com/Shop/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=386 for publisher's blurb.)
  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #25 - 07/06/07 at 21:04:50
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Yes,but now we discuss it here! Wink
"I don't think you need be too pessimistic about Black's winning chances even against strong opposition. It all depends on your opponent's style really. While it is true that there are several lines which promise White a comfortable edge with little risk, some players (including strong ones) will try and refute you outright by keeping the pawn in the line 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 or opting for sharp play with Alekhine's 4. e4. Here, Black will be in more danger, but will also get more chances of emerging ahead. Furthermore, even in the ultra-solid lines such as 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 there is room for outplaying your opponent with greater familiarity of the positions as Scholar's subtle analysis has demonstrated in an older thread."

1.I tried to improve the line with Bf4  and not to take the pawn .I workt at that a few weeks and it seems,that black just has to take the pawn to have some counterchances,but than there is a line which is forced and ends up in a better endgame for white.
I think this line is maybe some kind of a refutation of the BpG Sad
2.e4 is not such a good move!black scores quite well in this line!White has not so much chances and in my opinion e4 is = or even =+.
3. In the line Bf4 Nd2 is not really a good move,because it allows black to start an attak.

I dont want to show you why e4 is not so good or how to attak after Nd2,because I dont have enough time to write that down.
But after a hard work on the BpG for over 4 years,not only by myself ,but also with the help of the strongest computers like Rybka I can say ,that only the line with Bf4;Nc3 gives white an advantage.
You can prove it yourself ,if you have a few years time Grin
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #24 - 07/06/07 at 19:30:59
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BTW, shouldn't this thread be in Daring Defences?  Huh
  

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belgian
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Budapest
Reply #23 - 07/06/07 at 17:27:12
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1183380784/15#22 date=1183735864] All in all, it's probably best not to use the Budapest as your main defence to 1. d4 as your repertoire will lack flexibility and you will indeed have problems in must-win situations, but it can be an excellent choice under specific circumstances.[/quote]

Agreed.

As pointed out, many 1.d4 player will likely not object too strongly to avoiding the Budapest altogether with 2. Nf3 as the QI (or Catalan), the KI Bayonet, the MML Benoni, the Nf3 exchange GI are all in sufficiently good shape not to regret the early commitment against an opponent who's not a specialist in the chosen Indian.

The point is that you have your work cut out to achieve an equal game after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 as demonstrated in OFWAK. Once you've invested the time to defend you preferred Indian after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3, it's more practical to defend the same Indian after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4.

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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Budapest
Reply #22 - 07/06/07 at 15:31:04
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[quote author=Udav18 link=1183380784/15#21 date=1183727500]It is an opening without any chances to win for black at the level >2200  :(
[/quote]

I don't think you need be too pessimistic about Black's winning chances even against strong opposition. It all depends on your opponent's style really. While it is true that there are several lines which promise White a comfortable edge with little risk, some players (including strong ones) will try and refute you outright by keeping the pawn in the line 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktc3 Qe7 ; 7. Qd5 or opting for sharp play with Alekhine's 4. e4. Here, Black will be in more danger, but will also get more chances of emerging ahead. Furthermore, even in the ultra-solid lines such as 4. Bf4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktf3 Bb4+ ; 6. Ktd2 there is room for outplaying your opponent with greater familiarity of the positions as Scholar's subtle analysis has demonstrated in an older thread.

All in all, it's probably best not to use the Budapest as your main defence to 1. d4 as your repertoire will lack flexibility and you will indeed have problems in must-win situations, but it can be an excellent choice under specific circumstances.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #21 - 07/06/07 at 13:11:40
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Well I did a lot of work on the Budapest Gambit,I play it as black,but I also wanted to  be objektive ,so I played the BpG many times as white.
My opinion sounds like this:
1.BpG gives black many posiibilities to win in the opening stage.
2.In many positions after the opening stage black has often possibilities to attak
3.Black has to know many games,variations and ideas to use the BpG as an strong weapon
4.There are a few lines,where white comes out with an small advantage,but has to be very careful not to lose it.

So there are 3 points from the few of black,which are very important at an lower level
There is one point for white,which is important at a higher level.

That means,that the BpG is a very good opening until the level of 2200 Smiley
It is an opening without any chances to win for black at the level >2200  Sad





  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #20 - 07/05/07 at 21:34:18
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First the mundane comment:

This thread really belongs in the Daring Defenses to 1.d4 section.  It's cool though that so many denizens of this section have enjoyed commenting on the Budapest!


Ok, now that's over with:

I love when players, even masters play the Budapest against me.  I think they expect me either to know nothing about it or to know only Kasparov's line.

There are many problems with the Budapest, and a close reading of Tseitlin and Glaskov's The Budapest Gambit for the Tournament Player shows this.  The authors repeatedly point out Black's great compensation for the Bishop pair or being a pawn down, yet they also point out when White sacks a pawn or gives up the Bishop pair and say that Black is better precisely because of this.  A close reading of the book shows that the authors are either deluded or worse, intentionally trying to mislead their readers into thinking the variation is better than its reputation when they know a higher truth.

I have used several variations to gain huge advantages as White in the Budapest.  Perhaps the only major variation after 3...Ng4 that is not good for White is Alekhin's 4.e4.  Even that is tricky to meet, but Black scores well against it.

The problem of the Budapest, as with other offbeat openings is that if White is vigilant White can gain an advantage in more than one variation.  Black has to know several different variations and be content to play from an inferior position in spite of best play.

All major openings should give White a slight advantage if White plays accurately.  The Budapest gives White more scope to find a greater variety of comfortable positions and many of these positions are better than the advantage of the first move should allow.

I'll go into specific variations in the Budapest section if anyone wishes to discuss them there.
  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #19 - 07/05/07 at 16:11:04
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Well I checked everything in this line not only at first by myself,but also later by Fritz10,Rybka2.3.2 and Junior10 .The line until 0-0 is the best for white indeed.But I checked 13.0-0 Qxe 14.QxQ RxQ 15.Nd4 Nxd 16.cxd now h6! .Here I did a lot of work today and I checked many lines and it seems that this line is a draw ,if black plays well.In many lines an R vs. R endgame appears where white is a pawn up,but there is just no way to win this endgame ,because the white king cant come into the game.Puhhhh,So now i am satisfied again Cool
I would assess 13.0-0 as +=,because white can play for a win and black not really.
Ok now its your turn ,I have now headache ,because of all this variations,please can anybody check the lines:
13.Nd4
13.Be3
13.Nh4!?
  
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Udav18
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #18 - 07/05/07 at 14:34:34
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You are right  0-0 gives withe a sound advantage.Hmmmmmm that is of course a valid objection.
I will analyze a little bit,where I can improve blacks moves.I think it was just to early to capture on c3.
in fact i have analyzed the lines without an early Bxc3 and i can remember,that white had allways to be very carful not to lose the advantage.
Ok i will try to improve this line.

  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #17 - 07/04/07 at 20:25:00
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Quote:
Well 12...Bg4 is known as a bad mistake.Instead black should play 12...Re8 and after 13.e3 h6!
The best variation for white,which leads to an equal position is: 14.c5 g5!! 15.cxd Qe4! 16.QxQ NxQ 17.dxc7 gxf4 18.gxf Nxc3=


I must admit that this line is new to me. Indeed that endgame appears to be at least equal for black.
But white can deviate, and I'm not really convinced that 13. e3 is white's best move.

13. Nd4 and 13. Be3 should be considered and maybe I'll analyse those when I have time.

But for now 13 0-0 should be a simple move to retain some advantage.
13. 0-0 Qxe2 14. Qxe2 Rxe2 15. Nd4! (Now black must undouble the c pawn, and white has an advantage in the endgame due to the bishop pair) Nxd4 16. cxd4 +/=

This is exactly what Ptero and Willempie are referring to. White has a slight pull and can play for a win without much danger.
  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #16 - 07/04/07 at 18:49:59
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Udav18 wrote on 07/02/07 at 12:53:04:
So I dont understand,why no Top-player has this opening in his repertoire.


The reason you don't see the Budapest at the elite level is that white gets the sort of dream situation for that sort of events: he gets a safe (if small) edge with no risks and no need to know much theory, and can slowly but surely grind black knowing the 1/2 point is always in the bag. 

Edit: seems like Willempie (as always) beat me to the answer
  
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Re: Why does no Top-Player play the Buderpester GA
Reply #15 - 07/04/07 at 18:44:37
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Udav18 wrote on 07/04/07 at 18:36:53:
Well 12...Bg4 is known as a bad mistake.Instead black should play 12...Re8 and after 13.e3 h6!
The best variation for white,which leads to an equal position is: 14.c5 g5!! 15.cxd Qe4! 16.QxQ NxQ 17.dxc7 gxf4 18.gxf Nxc3=
Now it is a really interessting Endgame with equal chances. Wink
"
Quote:
Just try to play it against a strong computer and no matter how you will play even ,if you play it like a World Champion it will be really improbable that you will win as white just because of the opening .

That applies to almost any opening. There has even been a match where the computer gave the GM a pawn odd in the starting position and still won. The fact that an engine can beat a human with the Budapest says nothing about the merits of that opening.
"
Yes ,thats right,but I do not say that the BpG is a genius Opening ,only i do not understand why no Top -player is using it,when it is a solid opening without a refutation. Undecided


Having played it a lot I can give you an answer though you will prolly dont like it. In most of the main lines (or for example the lines Palliser gives in his 1d4 book) white gets a slight edge and can play for a win without risk (though a draw is probable). So you basically play for a draw with black. Eg the line Karpov played may be improved upon by black at points, but white still will have the initiative and play for a positional squeeze.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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