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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD Exchange with an early ..h6 (Read 10654 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #16 - 07/05/07 at 20:19:20
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Thanks, X. I hadn't come across that one; I'll have a look.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #15 - 07/05/07 at 18:43:37
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Quote:
MNb, thanks a lot.

When my schedule clears a bit, I'm going to have a crack at understanding all these tricky QGDX move order wrinkles. I would say, in general, that QGDX is seemingly not that well covered in the literature (apart from the minority attack, which has been flogged to death...)


Have you checked out Thomas Henrichs' Chessbase CD on the Queen's Gambit Exchange?  This is the best source I have found for early deviations, as well as main line theory.  This is one of the most detailed opening CDs I have found.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #14 - 07/05/07 at 16:17:34
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/05/07 at 15:48:43:
So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.  Everyone just sort of assumes that play will eventually reach a standard position, but at the amateur level this isn't such a sure thing.

I've been looking at a lot of these early deviations and, if there's interest, I'm happy to share some observations or help analyze. Smiley


 


One thing I would say about playing the Exchange at the amateur level is that I'm not sure it's advisable to let Black's c8 bishop come out.  With the possible exception of the 0-0-0 forms, the Exchange may be too sophisticated to use against someone rated under 2000, or maybe even under 2200.  Unless I wanted to play 0-0-0 and launch a banzai pawn storm against his king, I would rather not exchange on d5 and would rather just let my opponent figure out how to find good squares for his pieces.
« Last Edit: 07/06/07 at 11:28:50 by Markovich »  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #13 - 07/05/07 at 16:16:07
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/05/07 at 15:48:43:
So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.

 


Actually this is one area where Berliner's much maligned book "The System" has some interesting and very pertinent things to say.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #12 - 07/05/07 at 15:48:43
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So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.  Everyone just sort of assumes that play will eventually reach a standard position, but at the amateur level this isn't such a sure thing.

I've been looking at a lot of these early deviations and, if there's interest, I'm happy to share some observations or help analyze. Smiley


  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #11 - 07/05/07 at 14:20:18
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MNb, thanks a lot.

When my schedule clears a bit, I'm going to have a crack at understanding all these tricky QGDX move order wrinkles. I would say, in general, that QGDX is seemingly not that well covered in the literature (apart from the minority attack, which has been flogged to death...)
  

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MNb
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #10 - 07/05/07 at 01:35:48
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Mark Taimanow
unter Mitarbeit von Jakow Neistadt, Jefim Stoljar und Pawel Kondratjew

Damengambit bis Holländisch
Sportverlag Berlin 1980

Page 202
after 8...h6 9.Bh4 0-0

Quote:
Das manöver Sg1-e2-g3 taugt in dieser Variante nichts, da das Feld g3 für den Läufer frei bleibebe muss (für den Fal von g7-g5). Möglich ist hingegen die zweischneidige Fortsetzung 10.0-0-0 um zu versuchen, aus der geschwächten Bauernstellung des schwarzen Königs Nutzen zu ziehen.


Page 206
after 8.Nge2 0-0 9.Qc2
Quote:
Möglich ist auch 9...h6, z.B. 10.Lh4 (auf 10.h4 empfiehlt Euwe 10...Se8 11.Lxe7 Dxe7 12.0-0-0 Sd6) 10...Te8 (oder 10...Se8 11.Lg3 Sdf6 12.0-0 Ld6 mit etwa gleichen Chancen) 11.f3 c5 12.0-0 a6 13.Tad1 b5 14.Lf2 mit komplizierten Spiel bei besseren Chancen für Weiss (Botwinnik-Larsen, Noordwijk 1965).


D = queen
T = Rook
L = Bishop
S = Knight

There is also a later edition of this book (1984 or so) and I am pretty sure, nothing has been changed.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #9 - 07/04/07 at 07:39:32
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@MNb, do you have a reference for that Taimanov line?

I have to say, after playing the White side of the QGDX for many, many years, I still feel pretty clueless regarding the subtleties of the timing / inclusion of ...h6 in many lines.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #8 - 07/04/07 at 05:01:22
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I should make clear:

My objection wasn't really to Qc2 or even Bf2 in general.  It was an objection to automatically playing Bf2 when Black has played the position in a slightly eccentric way.

I haven't done much research on Black's moves, but I will.  Thanks to all for the impetus to find some semblance of truth here.  I'll get back to you when I've discovered the Fountain of Youth!

Cool
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #7 - 07/04/07 at 02:42:32
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Markovich wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:19:53:
That seems like a very odd point of view to me, since in my understanding, c2 is the normal place for the queen in the QG Exchange, both in its minority attack and pawn-roller forms.  (I should add, also in its opposite-side-castling form.)  

I opine with somewhat less certainty that here, since White's plan is to roll his e- and f-pawns, he would sooner have his a-rook on e1 than c1.  But there is no reason to put it there soon in case Black plays ...c5, particularly since it doesn't seem to be necessary to enforce e3-e4.

Edit: Funny, I thought White had 0-0 in here.  If 0-0-0 then the plan is, of course, a kingside pawn storm.


According to Taimanov the move order
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Bd3 h6
is imprecise because of 9.Bh4 0-0 10.0-0-0 (iso 10.Nge2). He states, that Black should play 8...0-0 9.Nge2 h6 10.Bh4 transposing.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #6 - 07/03/07 at 15:21:36
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Thanks for all the comments. 

@MNB -- Thanks much for the game cite; this is the way some of my games go.  White can unravel but has to be careful, especially with the weak g3-square.  Still, I think this is probably the way to play it.

@Markovich -- Yes, the Botvinnik-style plan is 0-0 and central expansion, but -- as you no doubt know -- it is not so simple to realize.  First, e4 has to be timed correctly or the White center can be weak and vulnerable to a later ..c5.  Second, after 1.e4,dxe4, 2.fxe4, White has to watch the g4 square.  Here, maybe he plays h3 (which is one way to get castled vs the Qc7-Bd6 battery), but then he has to watch g3.  It is not so easy for White to prove an advantage/edge here.  Well, at least for me.  But since this defensive set-up is so rarely played, I can't help wonder if there's something wrong with it that I may be missing??

@SmyslovFan -- AFAIK, Qc2 is not only normal but helps to prevent Black from playing an early ...Ne4.  As Dji notes, the Bishop usually goes back to f2, where it protects the e3 and d4 pawns.  In similar QGD lines, you are right that the Bishop can sometimes stay on h4 longer, but here (after ..Bd6) Black is threatening ..Rxe3, so it's either Bf2 or something like Qd2.  The trick Rc1 is not so good.  Black can always play ..Qb8 if he needs to and, as Markovich noted, the Rook is in the wrong place.  It is better on d1 or e1, depending on circumstances.

@Dji -- Interesting idea; thanks.  I will look into it.

Best,
LeeRoth 



  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #5 - 07/03/07 at 13:31:07
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With the h6 target Bf2 is a normal move.Basic plan for withe 0-0-0, Bf2,g4,h4... and there 's no target on the other side (queenside) .Of course black can play c5 and try to attack with the c column but i prefer withe side
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #4 - 07/03/07 at 12:19:53
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:02:53:
My first thought is that White has played Qc2 too early.  Unfortunately, the pedigree of the move is beyond question (Botvinnik).  I would still prefer Alekhin's rule that in the QGD the Q belongs on e2.

Personally, I don't see why White needs to rush with Bf2.  White could play Rac1 with the idea of Nb5 or even Nxd5 in some lines.  I have won several games by combining such a simple threat with expansion in the center.

If Black plays a slightly eccentric line, then the refutation is usually not to play the standard stuff.  White should be looking for improvements to the immediate Bf2.

Those are just my initial thoughts, but I haven't checked any of this with my German friends.


That seems like a very odd point of view to me, since in my understanding, c2 is the normal place for the queen in the QG Exchange, both in its minority attack and pawn-roller forms.  (I should add, also in its opposite-side-castling form.) 

I opine with somewhat less certainty that here, since White's plan is to roll his e- and f-pawns, he would sooner have his a-rook on e1 than c1.  But there is no reason to put it there soon in case Black plays ...c5, particularly since it doesn't seem to be necessary to enforce e3-e4.

Edit: Funny, I thought White had 0-0 in here.  If 0-0-0 then the plan is, of course, a kingside pawn storm.
« Last Edit: 07/03/07 at 14:36:20 by Markovich »  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #3 - 07/03/07 at 12:02:53
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My first thought is that White has played Qc2 too early.  Unfortunately, the pedigree of the move is beyond question (Botvinnik).  I would still prefer Alekhin's rule that in the QGD the Q belongs on e2.

Personally, I don't see why White needs to rush with Bf2.  White could play Rac1 with the idea of Nb5 or even Nxd5 in some lines.  I have won several games by combining such a simple threat with expansion in the center.

If Black plays a slightly eccentric line, then the refutation is usually not to play the standard stuff.  White should be looking for improvements to the immediate Bf2.

Those are just my initial thoughts, but I haven't checked any of this with my German friends.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #2 - 07/03/07 at 11:59:36
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/02/07 at 23:13:40:
If this works, the diagram will be a theoretical position in the QGD Exchange, reached after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Bd3 h6 9.Bh4 0-0 10.Nge2 Re8 11.f3


http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1bqr1k1/pp1nbpp1/2p2n1p...

Here, most sources cite Botvinnik-Larsen, Noordwijk 1965 as the standard example.  Larsen played 11..c5.  But most of my opponents play some combination of ..Qc7 and ..Bd6.

I've found very little on this idea and find it annoying to meet.  For example, 11..Qc7 12.Bf2 Bd6 13.h3 Nh5 or 11..Qc7 12.Bg3 Bd6 13.Qd2 and in either case, the position is hard for me to assess.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts on White's best line of play here?



Well obviously, White's maximum goal is to play e3-e4, e4-e5, f3-f4, f4-f5, f5-f6 (or usually e5-e6 in case f4-f5 is met by f7-f6).  If Black instead exchanges on e4, then White recaptures with the f-pawn and plays with his mobile pawn center and the f-file.  To me, Black's early ...c5 looks like a good and possibly necessary way to inhibit this.

  

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