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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD Exchange with an early ..h6 (Read 10506 times)
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #31 - 07/18/07 at 13:05:03
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MarinFan,

Thanks, the Yusupov-Nogueiras game is indeed one of the games that every QGD exchange player should know.  I am familiar with it, but I think there was another game played about the same time (or perhaps just a bit later) that was almost its twin. 

You may be right though, even the other game may have seen White play Nf3 instead of Nge2.  Oh well.  Embarrassed
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #30 - 07/18/07 at 12:28:20
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Hello,

Maybe mean this game

[Event "Candidates Tournament"]
[Site "Montpellier"]
[Date "1985.10.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Jussupow,Artur"]
[Black "Nogueiras,Jesus"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D35"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e3 Bd6 8.Bd3 Nf8
9.Ne5 Qb6 10.0-0 Bxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4 12.Qa4 Qxb2 13.Rac1 Bd7 14.Qd4 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Bxf6 Rg8
17.Nb5 Qxb5 18.Bxb5 Ne6 19.Qb2 cxb5 20.Bh4  1-0

which is studied in one of the Yusopov book's, probably Opening Preparation? It is a different approach for white than the rest of this thread though.

Bye John S
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #29 - 07/18/07 at 03:42:30
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BTW:

Kasparov annotates the Botvinnik-Keres (1952) game in his My Great Predecessors series.  I found it in volume 2, p. 141 (2003 English edition).

Kasparov says "11...Bd6?  A serious positional mistake (Black was tempted by the threat of 12...Bxh2+).  11...Ng4 was correct, and 11...Bg4 also deserved some consideration."

This position is without Black having played ...h6.  Instead, Black had played Nbd7-f8.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #28 - 07/18/07 at 03:34:20
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Markovich, there was also a game in the late 1980s or early 1990s in which Sokolov or Yusupov crushed Granda Zuniga who played ...Bd6.  It was theoretically important, but my memory is going soft so I can't tell you the date of it.  I'll try and dig it up.

The main reason I didn't mention this earlier is that I don't remember whether ..h6 was played.  I'll try to find out though.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #27 - 07/17/07 at 13:10:54
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/15/07 at 01:29:28:
Funny enough I've had this 7...Bd6 played against me twice, once by GM Kiriakov and once last Monday. On neither occasion have I fancied what I said in the book, which was the product of a lot of angst at the time. I haven't revisited 11...Bxh2+ but I was definitely aware of it at the time (one idea of Kh1 is to defang this idea) and I had a computer by my side, so I suspect I concluded that White could survive.

I'm never as confident as textbooks about this ...Bd6 being bad. I do quite like MNb's 11 h3 and 12 000, which somehow seems logical to me. Promoting g4 looks natural with ...h6 in, and so does having a N on e2 so that ...g5, Bg3 Bxg3; fxg3 Rxe3 never works.


Didn't Botvinnik famously defeat Keres after this ...Bd6?  That may account for theory's being so confident on this point.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #26 - 07/16/07 at 02:30:54
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Alatorzev deserves the credits, not me ...
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #25 - 07/15/07 at 01:29:28
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Funny enough I've had this 7...Bd6 played against me twice, once by GM Kiriakov and once last Monday. On neither occasion have I fancied what I said in the book, which was the product of a lot of angst at the time. I haven't revisited 11...Bxh2+ but I was definitely aware of it at the time (one idea of Kh1 is to defang this idea) and I had a computer by my side, so I suspect I concluded that White could survive.

I'm never as confident as textbooks about this ...Bd6 being bad. I do quite like MNb's 11 h3 and 12 000, which somehow seems logical to me. Promoting g4 looks natural with ...h6 in, and so does having a N on e2 so that ...g5, Bg3 Bxg3; fxg3 Rxe3 never works.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #24 - 07/13/07 at 00:32:01
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You may want to check out the games of GM Alex Yermolinsky who is an expert in the QGDX. His book 'The Road to Chess Improvement' has an interesting overview of the QGDX that you may want to look into.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #23 - 07/08/07 at 04:13:53
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If you're interested in this line, check out the Henrichs CD.  He has a survey on 7..Bd6, about which he says, "in theory this variation enjoys a dubious reputation, probably deservedly."

LeeRoth
  
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Re: A QGD exchange line in Cox's repertoire book
Reply #22 - 07/08/07 at 02:40:21
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Bd6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nge2 Nbd7 9.Qc2 h6 10.Bh4 Re8 11.0-0 Bxh2+.


This is a cute idea: 12.Kxh2 Ng4+ 13.Kh3 Ndf6 14.Bf5 g5 15.Bh4 Re4 16.Bxe4 Nxe3+ 17.Kh2 Nxc2 18.Bxc2 and White still must be better, though Ng4+ 19.Kg2 f5 is not entirely clear.
11.h3 Qa5 12.0-0-0 has already been played by Alatorzev in 1938 according to Taimanov, who thinks White is better.
Of course there is also 8.Nf3.
  

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A QGD exchange line in Cox's repertoire book
Reply #21 - 07/07/07 at 09:53:08
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Since this is a thread about Black deviations from the main lines, I would like to mention one that I've seen a view times based on an early ...Bd6.  Often this line is omitted in most books covering the QGD exchange, so I was pleased to see this mentioned in John Cox's Starting Out: 1d4! since it has some bite in amateur play.  Here's the brief line he gives with quotations from Cox:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Bd6 "is very frequent below grandmaster levels:  White can continue more or less as in our main set-up although he needs to take a little care of Black's extra play down the e-file." 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nge2 Nbd7 9.Qc2 h6 10.Bh4 Re8 11.0-0 Nf8 12.Kh1 "with much the same sort of game, although at some point Black is going to find that the threat of e5 gains a shade of tempo for White."  (Cox)

When I looked at this line, the position after 11.0-0 began to raise a red flag in my mind when I saw the possibility 11...Bxh2+.  I looked at this briefly, but I didn't find a satisfying defense for White.  I don't use a computer engine for analysis, so maybe I am missing something.  Is there something here for White?

As an alternative to 11.0-0, I looked into the flexible 11.h3 which seems promising for White.  In fact, when I checked one of my BookUp databases, I had looked at this position before and entered the model game Volkov-Kozlov given below:

[Event "RUS-Cup5"]
[Site "Ekaterinburg"]
[Date "1997.02.13"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Volkov,Sergey"]
[Black "Kozlov,Oleg"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D36"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 Nbd7 7.Qc2 Bd6 8.Bd3 h6
9.Bh4 0-0 10.Nge2 Re8 11.h3 Qa5 12.Bg3 Bxg3 13.Nxg3 c5 14.0-0 c4 15.Bf5 b5 16.e4 b4
17.Nxd5 Nxd5 18.exd5 Nb6 19.Bxc8 Raxc8 20.d6 g6 21.Ne4 Nd7 22.Rfe1 Kg7 23.a3 bxa3 24.Re3 a2
25.Qc3 Qd5 26.Nc5 Rxe3 27.fxe3 Qxd6 28.Rxa2 Qc7 29.Ra5 Kg8 30.Qa3 Ra8 31.Ne4 Nb6 32.Re5 Kg7
33.Re7 Qd8 34.Nd6  1-0

I think this is good for White, but I am curious if 11.0-0 Bxh2+ works for White.

By the way, Kozlov has several games with the above setup as Black, so you might want to look at some of his other games if you want to study this line.  Volkov's line seems to be one of the most convincing tries for White.

On a side note, I just started reading Cox's book and so far I really like it.  This is a great overview, especially given the space limitations.  His choices are honest and he has a knack for finding the big points most relevant to practical play.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #20 - 07/06/07 at 16:13:53
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Yes, we are talking about a sideline.  The sideline is introduced by the move 9..h6; the main line is 9..Re8.  After 9..h6 10.Bh4 Re8, the position is different.  For one thing, with the Bishop on h4, it now has access to f2, where it is well placed to support central expansion.

IMHO, White's best move now is 11.f3.  This can be debated, I know.  Many players will look at the pawn on ..h6 and think that the idea of 0-0-0, h3 and g4-g5 now looks good.  But I think there is a problem with this plan.  Principally, if White plays 11.0-0-0, Black has 11..Ne4! which gives him good counterplay.  

After 11.f3, I have 121 games in my database.  11..c5 is most popular, followed by 11..Nf8. The position I want to look at, though, arises after 11..Qc7, which has very rarely been played.  So, we are actually in a sideline of a sideline!! Smiley

  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #19 - 07/06/07 at 14:58:35
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PS: I found the print source for the Botvinnik-Larsen game:  it is at the end of note 47 to D36 in the old ECO.  The game is not at the end of any of the key lines given, it is just part of a side note.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #18 - 07/06/07 at 10:25:41
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I've doen just a small amount of the research I will need to do to make a complete analysis of the positions that LeeRoth mentioned in his first comments.  Here's my preliminary work:

First of all, the game Botvinnik-Larsen seems to have been a rarity rather than a standard position.  What "sources" (note the plural) suggest that this is a major line in the QG Exchange?

I did go back and take a look at similar games in which Black played Nbd7, Qc7, and Re8 before White castled.  There were not many examples, but White tended to castle q-side, attack the exposed Q on c7 (which seems counter-intuitive, but Topalov won a simul game this way), and attack with h3 and g4.  The titled players who used this technique won more than they drew, but there were very few examples (so far) that I have found.

Here's the problem:  Black rarely mixes systems the way the Botvinnik-Larsen game did.  Larsen ended up losing a long game, but I'm sure White could have improved on the game continuation.  (I'll provide it in another comment if anyone's actually interested.)

White seems to get interesting attacks because Black's pieces are not working together.  This can be seen in the very idea of playing ...Be7-d6.  If Black is going to play this way, perhaps he should consider the more active lines involving ...c7-c5 instead of c7-c6.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #17 - 07/05/07 at 21:16:07
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I've mentioned it before, but Burgess and Pedersen's The Queen's Gambit for the Attacking Player has some excellent information.

Another great source for any QGD player is Baburin's highly acclaimed but seemingly little-read Winning Pawn Structures which focuses almost entirely on the IQP (Isolated Queen Pawn).
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #16 - 07/05/07 at 20:19:20
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Thanks, X. I hadn't come across that one; I'll have a look.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #15 - 07/05/07 at 18:43:37
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Quote:
MNb, thanks a lot.

When my schedule clears a bit, I'm going to have a crack at understanding all these tricky QGDX move order wrinkles. I would say, in general, that QGDX is seemingly not that well covered in the literature (apart from the minority attack, which has been flogged to death...)


Have you checked out Thomas Henrichs' Chessbase CD on the Queen's Gambit Exchange?  This is the best source I have found for early deviations, as well as main line theory.  This is one of the most detailed opening CDs I have found.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #14 - 07/05/07 at 16:17:34
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/05/07 at 15:48:43:
So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.  Everyone just sort of assumes that play will eventually reach a standard position, but at the amateur level this isn't such a sure thing.

I've been looking at a lot of these early deviations and, if there's interest, I'm happy to share some observations or help analyze. Smiley


 


One thing I would say about playing the Exchange at the amateur level is that I'm not sure it's advisable to let Black's c8 bishop come out.  With the possible exception of the 0-0-0 forms, the Exchange may be too sophisticated to use against someone rated under 2000, or maybe even under 2200.  Unless I wanted to play 0-0-0 and launch a banzai pawn storm against his king, I would rather not exchange on d5 and would rather just let my opponent figure out how to find good squares for his pieces.
« Last Edit: 07/06/07 at 11:28:50 by Markovich »  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #13 - 07/05/07 at 16:16:07
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/05/07 at 15:48:43:
So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.

 


Actually this is one area where Berliner's much maligned book "The System" has some interesting and very pertinent things to say.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #12 - 07/05/07 at 15:48:43
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So true.

You can find coverage of the main lines, but I don't know of any source that systematically examines the early deviations.  Everyone just sort of assumes that play will eventually reach a standard position, but at the amateur level this isn't such a sure thing.

I've been looking at a lot of these early deviations and, if there's interest, I'm happy to share some observations or help analyze. Smiley


  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #11 - 07/05/07 at 14:20:18
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MNb, thanks a lot.

When my schedule clears a bit, I'm going to have a crack at understanding all these tricky QGDX move order wrinkles. I would say, in general, that QGDX is seemingly not that well covered in the literature (apart from the minority attack, which has been flogged to death...)
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #10 - 07/05/07 at 01:35:48
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Mark Taimanow
unter Mitarbeit von Jakow Neistadt, Jefim Stoljar und Pawel Kondratjew

Damengambit bis Holländisch
Sportverlag Berlin 1980

Page 202
after 8...h6 9.Bh4 0-0

Quote:
Das manöver Sg1-e2-g3 taugt in dieser Variante nichts, da das Feld g3 für den Läufer frei bleibebe muss (für den Fal von g7-g5). Möglich ist hingegen die zweischneidige Fortsetzung 10.0-0-0 um zu versuchen, aus der geschwächten Bauernstellung des schwarzen Königs Nutzen zu ziehen.


Page 206
after 8.Nge2 0-0 9.Qc2
Quote:
Möglich ist auch 9...h6, z.B. 10.Lh4 (auf 10.h4 empfiehlt Euwe 10...Se8 11.Lxe7 Dxe7 12.0-0-0 Sd6) 10...Te8 (oder 10...Se8 11.Lg3 Sdf6 12.0-0 Ld6 mit etwa gleichen Chancen) 11.f3 c5 12.0-0 a6 13.Tad1 b5 14.Lf2 mit komplizierten Spiel bei besseren Chancen für Weiss (Botwinnik-Larsen, Noordwijk 1965).


D = queen
T = Rook
L = Bishop
S = Knight

There is also a later edition of this book (1984 or so) and I am pretty sure, nothing has been changed.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #9 - 07/04/07 at 07:39:32
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@MNb, do you have a reference for that Taimanov line?

I have to say, after playing the White side of the QGDX for many, many years, I still feel pretty clueless regarding the subtleties of the timing / inclusion of ...h6 in many lines.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #8 - 07/04/07 at 05:01:22
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I should make clear:

My objection wasn't really to Qc2 or even Bf2 in general.  It was an objection to automatically playing Bf2 when Black has played the position in a slightly eccentric way.

I haven't done much research on Black's moves, but I will.  Thanks to all for the impetus to find some semblance of truth here.  I'll get back to you when I've discovered the Fountain of Youth!

Cool
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #7 - 07/04/07 at 02:42:32
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Markovich wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:19:53:
That seems like a very odd point of view to me, since in my understanding, c2 is the normal place for the queen in the QG Exchange, both in its minority attack and pawn-roller forms.  (I should add, also in its opposite-side-castling form.)  

I opine with somewhat less certainty that here, since White's plan is to roll his e- and f-pawns, he would sooner have his a-rook on e1 than c1.  But there is no reason to put it there soon in case Black plays ...c5, particularly since it doesn't seem to be necessary to enforce e3-e4.

Edit: Funny, I thought White had 0-0 in here.  If 0-0-0 then the plan is, of course, a kingside pawn storm.


According to Taimanov the move order
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Bd3 h6
is imprecise because of 9.Bh4 0-0 10.0-0-0 (iso 10.Nge2). He states, that Black should play 8...0-0 9.Nge2 h6 10.Bh4 transposing.
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #6 - 07/03/07 at 15:21:36
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Thanks for all the comments. 

@MNB -- Thanks much for the game cite; this is the way some of my games go.  White can unravel but has to be careful, especially with the weak g3-square.  Still, I think this is probably the way to play it.

@Markovich -- Yes, the Botvinnik-style plan is 0-0 and central expansion, but -- as you no doubt know -- it is not so simple to realize.  First, e4 has to be timed correctly or the White center can be weak and vulnerable to a later ..c5.  Second, after 1.e4,dxe4, 2.fxe4, White has to watch the g4 square.  Here, maybe he plays h3 (which is one way to get castled vs the Qc7-Bd6 battery), but then he has to watch g3.  It is not so easy for White to prove an advantage/edge here.  Well, at least for me.  But since this defensive set-up is so rarely played, I can't help wonder if there's something wrong with it that I may be missing??

@SmyslovFan -- AFAIK, Qc2 is not only normal but helps to prevent Black from playing an early ...Ne4.  As Dji notes, the Bishop usually goes back to f2, where it protects the e3 and d4 pawns.  In similar QGD lines, you are right that the Bishop can sometimes stay on h4 longer, but here (after ..Bd6) Black is threatening ..Rxe3, so it's either Bf2 or something like Qd2.  The trick Rc1 is not so good.  Black can always play ..Qb8 if he needs to and, as Markovich noted, the Rook is in the wrong place.  It is better on d1 or e1, depending on circumstances.

@Dji -- Interesting idea; thanks.  I will look into it.

Best,
LeeRoth 



  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #5 - 07/03/07 at 13:31:07
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With the h6 target Bf2 is a normal move.Basic plan for withe 0-0-0, Bf2,g4,h4... and there 's no target on the other side (queenside) .Of course black can play c5 and try to attack with the c column but i prefer withe side
  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #4 - 07/03/07 at 12:19:53
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/03/07 at 12:02:53:
My first thought is that White has played Qc2 too early.  Unfortunately, the pedigree of the move is beyond question (Botvinnik).  I would still prefer Alekhin's rule that in the QGD the Q belongs on e2.

Personally, I don't see why White needs to rush with Bf2.  White could play Rac1 with the idea of Nb5 or even Nxd5 in some lines.  I have won several games by combining such a simple threat with expansion in the center.

If Black plays a slightly eccentric line, then the refutation is usually not to play the standard stuff.  White should be looking for improvements to the immediate Bf2.

Those are just my initial thoughts, but I haven't checked any of this with my German friends.


That seems like a very odd point of view to me, since in my understanding, c2 is the normal place for the queen in the QG Exchange, both in its minority attack and pawn-roller forms.  (I should add, also in its opposite-side-castling form.) 

I opine with somewhat less certainty that here, since White's plan is to roll his e- and f-pawns, he would sooner have his a-rook on e1 than c1.  But there is no reason to put it there soon in case Black plays ...c5, particularly since it doesn't seem to be necessary to enforce e3-e4.

Edit: Funny, I thought White had 0-0 in here.  If 0-0-0 then the plan is, of course, a kingside pawn storm.
« Last Edit: 07/03/07 at 14:36:20 by Markovich »  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #3 - 07/03/07 at 12:02:53
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My first thought is that White has played Qc2 too early.  Unfortunately, the pedigree of the move is beyond question (Botvinnik).  I would still prefer Alekhin's rule that in the QGD the Q belongs on e2.

Personally, I don't see why White needs to rush with Bf2.  White could play Rac1 with the idea of Nb5 or even Nxd5 in some lines.  I have won several games by combining such a simple threat with expansion in the center.

If Black plays a slightly eccentric line, then the refutation is usually not to play the standard stuff.  White should be looking for improvements to the immediate Bf2.

Those are just my initial thoughts, but I haven't checked any of this with my German friends.
  
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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #2 - 07/03/07 at 11:59:36
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LeeRoth wrote on 07/02/07 at 23:13:40:
If this works, the diagram will be a theoretical position in the QGD Exchange, reached after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Bd3 h6 9.Bh4 0-0 10.Nge2 Re8 11.f3


http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1bqr1k1/pp1nbpp1/2p2n1p...

Here, most sources cite Botvinnik-Larsen, Noordwijk 1965 as the standard example.  Larsen played 11..c5.  But most of my opponents play some combination of ..Qc7 and ..Bd6.

I've found very little on this idea and find it annoying to meet.  For example, 11..Qc7 12.Bf2 Bd6 13.h3 Nh5 or 11..Qc7 12.Bg3 Bd6 13.Qd2 and in either case, the position is hard for me to assess.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts on White's best line of play here?



Well obviously, White's maximum goal is to play e3-e4, e4-e5, f3-f4, f4-f5, f5-f6 (or usually e5-e6 in case f4-f5 is met by f7-f6).  If Black instead exchanges on e4, then White recaptures with the f-pawn and plays with his mobile pawn center and the f-file.  To me, Black's early ...c5 looks like a good and possibly necessary way to inhibit this.

  

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Re: QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
Reply #1 - 07/03/07 at 02:33:17
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I have found one game with 11...Qc7 12.Bf2 Bd6 13.h3 Nh5. White continued with 14.0-0 Bh2+ 15.Kh1 Ng3+ 16.Nxg3 Bxg3 17.e4 Vernay-Dubois, La Fere 2004.
  

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QGD Exchange with an early ..h6
07/02/07 at 23:13:40
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If this works, the diagram will be a theoretical position in the QGD Exchange, reached after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Qc2 Nbd7 8.Bd3 h6 9.Bh4 0-0 10.Nge2 Re8 11.f3


http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=r1bqr1k1/pp1nbpp1/2p2n1p...

Here, most sources cite Botvinnik-Larsen, Noordwijk 1965 as the standard example.  Larsen played 11..c5.  But most of my opponents play some combination of ..Qc7 and ..Bd6.

I've found very little on this idea and find it annoying to meet.  For example, 11..Qc7 12.Bf2 Bd6 13.h3 Nh5 or 11..Qc7 12.Bg3 Bd6 13.Qd2 and in either case, the position is hard for me to assess.

Does anyone have any advice or thoughts on White's best line of play here?

  
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