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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Latest theory on Marshall gambit? (Read 6951 times)
ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #10 - 08/01/07 at 07:41:02
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You might want to look at Ivanchuk v Kamsky and Sutovsky v Short at Montreal  where black played 11... Bb7 holding the draw quite comfortably in both games
  
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zoo
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #9 - 07/30/07 at 15:33:25
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That's interesting, i was not aware that White had a draw in hand when entering the Marshall, which implies that Black must have a backup system if he doesn't want the draw. Is it possible to point a clear-cut variation like Parisestmagique did for the Najdorf Poisoned Pawn ?
  
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #8 - 07/09/07 at 12:12:47
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Quote:
Why does anyone wants to play the Marshall:

For me the advantage is perhaps that black has the initiative in most lines of the Marshall, but that he faces dangerous attacks in both the Zaitsev and to a lesser extent in the Chigorin


That, in my view, is the best reason, and it's persuasive.  Still, there's a lot to study and very little opportunity actually to use it OTB.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #7 - 07/08/07 at 16:42:12
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Quote:
One thing I have noticed is that if you play 7 ...0-0 8 c3 allowing the Marshall is a pretty rare move indeed. 8 h3 and a4 seem far more popular. I don't think those two moves are anything to be scared off- you will never have a devestating TN to face in either of those two lines.


True.  But from a psychological perspective, it's very annoying to spend your time studying and hoping for the c3 lines only to see a steady diet of 8.h3 and 8.a4.  I like the Marshall, but I don't like to live with the constant disappointment.   Cry
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #6 - 07/08/07 at 10:56:23
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Just to add a few further points to the debate.

Why play the Marshall? - well it's relatively easy to understand and play - strategy isn't exactly difficult !

One thing I have noticed is that if you play 7 ...0-0 8 c3 allowing the Marshall is a pretty rare move indeed. 8 h3 and a4 seem far more popular. I don't think those two moves are anything to be scared off- you will never have a devestating TN to face in either of those two lines.

Another factor is that it is quite good to play an attacking opening against those who like to attack . The Marshall worked for Spassky wonderfully against Tal and Short although he lost the anti Marshall match v Kasparov, did at least curtail some of Gary's right to attack !!

Just on the theoretical side- 12 d3 bd6 13 re1 Bf5 is meant to be a very clean equaliser nowadays. 13...qh4  leads to riskier play.
  
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #5 - 07/07/07 at 08:15:29
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Quote:
And even at that level there are quite a few examples where a top level GM went down as white.


Indeed! Something like:

Ponomariov,R (2717) - Anand,V (2786) [C89] XX Ciudad de Leon Leon ESP (1.2), 06.07.2007
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.d3 Bf6 11.Nbd2 Nf4 12.Ne4 Nxd3 13.Nxf6+ gxf6 14.Bh6 Nxe1 15.Qxe1 Ne7 16.Rd1 Qe8 17.Nh4 Be6 18.Qe3 Ng6 19.Bxf8 Qxf8 20.Nxg6 hxg6 21.Bxe6 fxe6 22.Qe4 Qe8 23.g3 Rb8 24.h4 Rb6 25.Kh2 Rd6 26.Rxd6 cxd6 27.Qb7 d5 28.Qxa6 Qd7 29.Qa3 d4 30.cxd4 exd4 31.Qd3 Kg7 32.g4 e5 33.f3 f5 34.h5 gxh5 35.gxf5 Kf6 36.Kg3 Qxf5 37.Qxb5 Qf4+ 38.Kg2 h4 39.Qb6+ Kf5 40.Qb7 Qg3+ 41.Kf1 h3 42.Qf7+ Kg5 43.Ke2 Qg2+ 44.Kd3 Kh4 45.Qh7+ Kg3 46.Qg7+ Kf2 47.Qxe5 h2 48.Kxd4 Qg1 49.Kd3 Qd1+ 50.Kc4 0-1
  
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blueguitar322
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #4 - 07/05/07 at 22:55:56
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Micawber: excellent summary! I don't play the Marshall with either color, but have always been interested in it. Thanks for your thoughts, maybe someday I'll look into it further Wink

And, as a Najdorf player, I agree: I'm not sure how anything vs. 1 e4 can be more theory. BUT...I think, especially as Black, the lines with more theory have accumulated it for a reason.
  
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #3 - 07/05/07 at 21:08:37
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Why does anyone wants to play the Marshall:

(1) Loads of theory:
Yes, but this can be limited to some extent if black takes the pawn-push as his main line. But if you take any of the other Spanish main lines you'll probably find that in these lines there is a lot of theory as well (in the Zaitsev the theoretical burden is nearly as extensive. Also the amount of theory may appear larger than it is, because several lines eventually converge on the same positions. Finally it pays off to study the typical tactical patterns, as with the help of these patterns and a little calculation a lot of theory can be reconstructed.
For me the advantage is perhaps that black has the initiative in most lines of the Marshall, but that he faces dangerous attacks in both the Zaitsev and to a lesser extent in the Chigorin.
As for other openings well if you take on the Najdorf or the Dragon the situation might even be worse...

For me personally, I nowadays play the Marshall especially in correspondance chess against high rated players (against lower rated players I prefer other lines).

(2) Only white can play for a win......
I think that is not entirely true. The real problem is that white probably can take a draw if he wants to. As many sharp Marshall lines end in forced draws that black can not very well avoid.
However if white really wants to win, he will have to take risks as well and try to avoid black drawing lines. This is probably why the Marshall is quite popular at top level chess. There a semi-forced draw as white is not exactly counted as a success. And even at that level there are quite a few examples where a top level GM went down as white.

By the way, my oponent in the linked game was a fide-master slightly higher rated than myself.
As you can see from the notes he neglected to look for a draw when there was still time, and landed himself in difficulties. I suppose being a pawn up can do that to you  Wink

(3) The anti-Marshall
It's true that the anti-Marshall is certainly acceptable as white. And Kasparov's adoption is a warning sign to treat these variations with respect.
But since I also play other spanish systems I really dont mind. After all, the anti-Marshall either limits white choices a bit, or transfers to specific lines that black cannot very well avoid in any case. I dont see the anti-Marshall as a killer-opening. But you are right that on a practical level, black should put as much if not more study time in the anti-Marshall's  as in the Marshall attack itself. Again the situation is not very different from the Sicilian, where anti-sicilian set-ups are popular on every level.

As an afterthought Kasparov's choice for the anti-Marshall might also say something of the Marshall-attack itself. One of the best prepared players ever apparantly did not find a convincing way to put the Marshall-attack out of business. And at the time a Marshall expert was in his team of seconds (Geller).
  
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #2 - 07/05/07 at 20:10:57
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Quote:
The best line against what variation?
In contrast to the situation 20 years ago it is not entirely clear what is to be considered the main line, etc.




My question is, why does anyone play the Marshall?  It seems to me that: (1) you have to learn a mountain of theory; (2) only White has play for a win; and (3) the anti-Marshalls are just about as good for White as the main lines of the Spanish.

Or do I err in one or more of those assertions?
  

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micawber
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Re: Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
Reply #1 - 07/05/07 at 16:10:32
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The best line against what variation?
In contrast to the situation 20 years ago it is not entirely clear what is to be considered the main line:

1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bb5,a6 4.Ba4,Nf6 5.0-0,Be7 6.Re1,b5 7.Bb3,0-0 8.c3,d5 9.exd,Nxd5 10.Nxe5,Nxe5
11.Rxe5,c6


Here we have the first split in variations that may be considered main lines

12.d3,Bd6 13.Re1,Qh4 14.g3,Qh3 15.Re4 is at least considered a main line where
black's best reply is still in discussion/


The other two lines have in common that:

12.d4,Bd6 13.Re1,Qh4 14.g3,Qh3 15.Qd3, Rae8 16.Be3,Bg4 17.Nd2,

then 17.....f5 18.f4,g5 19.Qf1,Qh5 lead to the classical pawn-push

while 17....Re6 18.a4,Qh4 (Spasski-variation)is considered the best continuation these days of the old classical main line.

-------------------------
But where to find up to date theory is a more difficult question.
The last book on the Marshall dates from 2003:
Lalic: The Marshall attack. But I can really not recommend it: it's full of errors and holes.

Nunn/Harding: The Marshall attack, 1989 was good source, but is now outdated.

The best presentation of theory up till 2002 is probably Hardings CD-rom:
"The total Marshall" (but a drawback is that it lack coverage of the anti-Marshall's)

Finally there is some coverage of the Marshall attack from 2002 on, in the subscrition area of 1.e4,e5
although it is far from complete.
-------------------------
So for theory after 2002 youre a bit on your own and you have to study important games,
because the theory is still develloping with several super GMs playing the Marshall (Leko, Aronian).

Finally for a novelty in the pawn-push look at the following forum link:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1172103665







  
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chesscheese
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Latest theory on Marshall gambit?
07/04/07 at 22:19:26
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Where can I find information about the very latest theory on the Marshall gambit? What is considerd to be the best line for black as of today 2007-07-05?

Thanks for your help!
  
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