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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dragon 9.g4 or not? (Read 6732 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #12 - 07/13/07 at 10:50:52
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White can not avoid a Soltis like position after Bb3 but white can get a more favorable one by playing Kb1 first and play h4 if black plays Re8 but play can transpose to regular Soltis lines as well. Look in New in Chess Yearbook 79 for theory on Bb3 Nxd4.
« Last Edit: 07/13/07 at 14:33:23 by bragesjo »  
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chk
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #11 - 07/13/07 at 07:19:24
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That looks very interesting, thanks. I remember I was discussing in another thread about applying a Yugoslav attack against the Accelerated Dragon too and I will see if I can make it semi-work with this Bc4-Bb3 system (of course with some limitations due to the 8. .. Qb6 lines).

In any case I am very fond of 'waiting/elastic' moves like Bb3. It definitely looks interesting! Smiley
  

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MNb
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #10 - 07/12/07 at 21:21:41
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chk wrote on 07/12/07 at 05:07:27:
10.Bb3 seems nice as the Chinese and the Soltis were the 2 systems that put me off trying 9.Bc4. Do you think there is a place I can start checking for this variation (is there a name attached to it? or a famous player that gave it a go?). There are also a lot of threads here in the forum and I don't know were really to start.. Sad


10.Bb3 does not really avoid the Soltis, does it? 10.Bb3 Rc8 and White has nothing better than 11.h4 or 11.0-0-0 Ne5 12.h4. In both cases Black can answer ...h5.

10.Bb3 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5 is sometimes called the Forintos Variation. You might want to look at Dennis Monokroussos' excellent site:

http://chessmind.powerblogs.com/

He has analysed three or four games on this particular variation (click openings to see further).
  

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belgian
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #9 - 07/12/07 at 13:16:45
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chk wrote on 07/12/07 at 05:07:27:
I see some good answers here! For the moment I am mostly intrigued by bragesjo's suggestion for Bb3 as the endgames shown after 9. g4 don't look interesting for White.


One place to start is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 b5, which is the traditional objection to the 10. Bb3 move order. That line is still Dragon expert Tiviakov's choice when faced with 10.Bb3 (he recently drew two games in the Dutch championship against Nijboer 12.a4 and Stellwagen 12. h4).

<belgian/>
  
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chk
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #8 - 07/12/07 at 05:07:27
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I see some good answers here! For the moment I am mostly intrigued by bragesjo's suggestion for Bb3 as the endgames shown after 9. g4 don't look interesting for White.

Bb3 seems nice as the Chinese and the Soltis were the 2 systems that put me off trying 9.Bc4. Do you think there is a place I can start checking for this variation (is there a name attached to it? or a famous player that gave it a go?). There are also a lot of threads here in the forum and I don't know were really to start.. Sad
  

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thibdb13
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #7 - 07/11/07 at 21:10:52
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MNb wrote on 07/11/07 at 20:13:59:
Does the Chinese Dragon make sense with the white bishop still left on f1?

Sorry, I forgot the "zwischenzug" 9. Bc4-00. It is clear that b5 (after Rb8) would not be so effective with the bishop on f1
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #6 - 07/11/07 at 20:13:59
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Does the Chinese Dragon make sense with the white bishop still left on f1?
  

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thibdb13
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #5 - 07/11/07 at 16:24:24
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blueguitar322 wrote on 07/11/07 at 14:39:58:
I am by no means a Dragon expert, but after 8...Bd7, can't White just play 9 O-O-O reaching some of the most favorable 9 O-O-O lines (usually reached by 9 O-O-O Bd7)?

I think Experts vs. Sicilian even has a note that if Black enjoys the positions after 9...Bd7, that 8...Bd7 is a more accurate move order. But then again, he also gives 9...Bd7 a '?!' and seems to believe 9...d5! is best for Black.

I do agree, though, that as an attack-minded player, I love facing the Dragon but don't enjoy 9...d5 as much as the "sac sac mate" lines.

After 8...Bd7 9. 000 black can play Rb8 going for the chinese dragon and white must know very well what he is going to do.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #4 - 07/11/07 at 14:39:58
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I am by no means a Dragon expert, but after 8...Bd7, can't White just play 9 O-O-O reaching some of the most favorable 9 O-O-O lines (usually reached by 9 O-O-O Bd7)?

I think Experts vs. Sicilian even has a note that if Black enjoys the positions after 9...Bd7, that 8...Bd7 is a more accurate move order. But then again, he also gives 9...Bd7 a '?!' and seems to believe 9...d5! is best for Black.

I do agree, though, that as an attack-minded player, I love facing the Dragon but don't enjoy 9...d5 as much as the "sac sac mate" lines.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #3 - 07/10/07 at 19:40:31
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9 g4 lines are often very drawish.
In the mainlines White must enter an ending or else blacks attack is much faster.
Sure Karpov has won a few games but that is Karpov being Karpov.

EDIT sample game

[Event "Dortmund"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Polgar, J."]
[Black "Anand, V."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B76"]
[WhiteElo "2670"]
[BlackElo "2765"]
[PlyCount "39"]
[EventDate "1997.??.??"]
[Source "ChessPublishing."]
[SourceDate "2004.12.06"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7
7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. g4 Be6 10. O-O-O Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Qa5 12. a3 Rfc8 13. h4
Rab8 14. Kb1 b5 15. Nd5 Qxd2 16. Rxd2 Nxd5 17. Bxg7 Ne3 18. Bd4 Nxf1 19. Rxf1
a5 20. e5 1/2-1/2

EDIT 2 Andrew Martin writes as comment to Anand-Kasparov 1995 WC match 15 when Anand played 9 g4 "Anand wasn't really having much luck with 9 Bc4 in this match and so chooses a solid line to try to avoid losing!"

[Event "15th matchgame, PCA World Ch. (Game 24)"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Anand, V."]
[Black "Kasparov, G."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B76"]
[PlyCount "32"]
[EventDate "1995.??.??"]
[Source "Everyman Chess"]
[SourceDate "2006.10.01"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. g4 Be6 10. O-O-O Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Qa5 12. Kb1 Rfc8 13. a3 Rab8 14. Nd5 Qxd2
15. Rxd2 Nxd5 16. Bxg7 Ne3 1/2-1/2

I am going an location to Estonia for a couple of days so I can not answer any repsones util Friday.

The most problematic lines for black in my eyes is either 9 0-0-0 or 9 Bc4 Bd7 10 Bb3.

EDIT 3 The point of 10 Bb3 is to avoid the Chinese since in that variation it is black (and not white) that has an attack.
10 Bb3 also avoids the solid Soltis defence after h4 h5.
The idea of Bb3 is to play 0-0-0 after Rc8 (Nxd4 is also possible) and after Ne5 (Topalovs Nxd4 Bxd4 b5 is also possilbe) play Kb1 Re8 h4 h5 Bh6 reaching a more favoralbe version of the Soltis, but since Ivanchuk was willing to enter this line recently, blacks position is playable.
« Last Edit: 07/11/07 at 09:02:30 by bragesjo »  
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JEH
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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #2 - 07/10/07 at 18:37:27
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I've been playing 9. Bc4 and 10. h4, but I don't think that move order should catch most Dragon players out.

  

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Re: Dragon 9.g4 or not?
Reply #1 - 07/10/07 at 13:02:03
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Systems with g4 and h4 are quite nice for white when Black has already castled (short). When Black lets his King in the centre, it could be a waste of time. Therefore playing Bc4 first seems more accurate (black should wait until this move to castle in the Yugoslav attack). In all these lines, white's attack is very thematic (as Fisher once said: sac, sac and mate!) but white must have prepared something against rapid counterplay on the Q-side (especially against the chinese dragon) and know what to do in case black transposes into the Soltis playing h5.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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chk
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Dragon 9.g4 or not?
07/10/07 at 12:42:42
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Hello friends,

I am currently looking for something against the Dragon. I am only considering lines of the Yugoslav attack and the following are my first impressions:

1. I don't really fancy the much recommended 9. O-O-O, due to the positions arising after 9. ... d5!?. I just seem to like more the positions where Black is not allowed to play d5.

2. I really like the 9. Bc4 lines, however theory is huge considering that I may face only 1 Dragon per year of OTB play. Moreover, I want to play in an original way and not to rely too much on books.

3. I had a look at 9. g4 which looks nice. Karpov and Short played some nice games with this line. I like the positional approach and I also like the endgames. Moreover, d5 is temporarily halted and I also saw some games where some of Black's standard Dragon set-ups against 9. Bc4 fail.

With this background I wanted to ask some questions, namely:

a) I read that 8. .. Bd7 avoids 9. g4. Is this a big problem or White gets some other good lines in return? Moreover, do you face 8. .. Bd7 on a regular basis?

b) Is there a universal system of the Yugoslav attack that can be used with a few moderations against the whole Dragon family, i.e. Dragon, Dragondorf and Accelerated Dragon?

c) Do you think I should search for a system within the 9. Bc4 labyrinth and forget about 9.g4?

I like attacking play (and endgames) and want to use the system chosen against opponents of ~2000 strength.

Looking forward for your answers,
regards chk
  

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