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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed or Taming Sicilian (Read 12512 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #13 - 04/08/08 at 15:46:55
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Stigma wrote on 03/06/08 at 10:15:45:
MNb wrote on 03/04/08 at 21:29:53:
This problem can be met with the even more subtle 2.Ne2, though this is not always the ideal square for the knight in the Closed.


I've never tried this move myself, but as Black I actually had some problems with it in blitz. I have unthinkingly played the standard "closed Sicilian" moves (g6,Bg7,d6,e6,Nge7,0-0 etc.) but this has not turned out at all well! White keeps the option of a "Big Clamp" with c3/d3, and also the direct c3/d4. Anybody know a good antidote to 2.Ne2!?


Well, playing ...e5 instead of ...e6 there is a main line.

I would have thought that the "Big Clamp" requires White's knight on f3, so it would generally start with 2. g3 or 2. d3.  But the ...e5 stuff (Botvinnik setup) is a main line there too.
  
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MagicTrick
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #12 - 04/08/08 at 14:52:50
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Stigma wrote on 03/06/08 at 10:15:45:
MNb wrote on 03/04/08 at 21:29:53:
This problem can be met with the even more subtle 2.Ne2, though this is not always the ideal square for the knight in the Closed.


I've never tried this move myself, but as Black I actually had some problems with it in blitz. I have unthinkingly played the standard "closed Sicilian" moves (g6,Bg7,d6,e6,Nge7,0-0 etc.) but this has not turned out at all well! White keeps the option of a "Big Clamp" with c3/d3, and also the direct c3/d4. Anybody know a good antidote to 2.Ne2!?

The problem with Keres Sicilian is probably 2...d5!?
  
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Black_Widow
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #11 - 04/07/08 at 20:20:52
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CheckMate wrote on 03/06/08 at 09:51:18:
I've always been attracted by the fianchetto against the tricky Paulsen systems. By the way I was intrigued by a passage in Experts versus the Sicilian where Sune Berg Hansen proclaims that the 6.g3 line versus the Taimanov (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. g3) is considered critical while the analogus setup versus the Kan (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. g3) is harmless. This difference surpasses me! Someone here who knows what Sune bases this claim on?

It makes quite some difference, that the knight is already on c6. In several variations for instance it is nice to swap N * Nc6 for instance. But there are more reasons. So the ideal move order for black in the Taimanov is not so easy.

In the Kan black has 6 .. Bb4, which gives nice play against the main line with 7 Nde2, and looks like the easy way out. However 7 Bd2 is not so clear, and might even be slightly better for white.

In the Kan black als has 6 .. Nf6. Which is a swamp of variations. I do not know how to assess 6 .. Nf6. But if white knows what he is doing, I think it is a very dangerous line (but maybe equal) against the Kan.

An early b5 for black, almost always leads to better positions for white.
  
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Black_Widow
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #10 - 04/07/08 at 19:52:54
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MNb wrote on 03/05/08 at 01:35:51:
Black_Widow wrote on 03/05/08 at 01:07:25:
Against the Najdorf, the Nb3 instead of Nde2 should be played.

I don't get this, though I have read it before. Why should the knight be better on b3 than on e2 after 6.g3 ?

The Nde2 positions are roughly equal, and play easily for black.

The Nb3 positions, it is not easy for black to prove equality, and this might be one of the better lines against the Najdorf, if there was not the escape route for the scheveningen. Because if black plays e6 instead of e5, then play is again roughly equal.

Enough talk, an example:
[Date "2006.05.28"]
[White "Nakamura, Hikaru"]
[Black "Agrest, Evgenij"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 cxd4 5. Nxd4 a6 6. g3 e5 7. Nb3 Nbd7 8. a4 b6 9. Bg2 Be7 10. O-O Bb7 11. Nd2 Rc8 12. Re1 O-O 13. Nf1 Nc5 14. Bg5 Ne6 15. Bxf6 Bxf6 16. Ne3 g6 17. Ncd5 Bg5 18. c3 Kh8 19. Qb3 Bxe3 20. Rxe3 Bxd5 21. Qxd5 and white is better.

  
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MartinC
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #9 - 03/06/08 at 10:16:10
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Having had more time to check this with sundry books I'm not sure what he'd base it on either Smiley

There is a distinctly Kan line after: 6 .. Bb4 7 Nde2 Nf6 8 Bg2 Be7 etc but given that white's more dangerous lines vs the Sheveningen set ups tend to involve voluntary Nb3/Nde2's that can't make such a difference from the main lines.

Emms seem to think an early b5 is asking for trouble.

Ideas with d6, Bd7 before Nf6 etc seem to be rather solid and possible from either move order. That's the safest sicillian line and Burgess' recommendation. Still plenty of play left in the positions of course.
« Last Edit: 03/06/08 at 19:38:45 by MartinC »  
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Stigma
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #8 - 03/06/08 at 10:15:45
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MNb wrote on 03/04/08 at 21:29:53:
This problem can be met with the even more subtle 2.Ne2, though this is not always the ideal square for the knight in the Closed.


I've never tried this move myself, but as Black I actually had some problems with it in blitz. I have unthinkingly played the standard "closed Sicilian" moves (g6,Bg7,d6,e6,Nge7,0-0 etc.) but this has not turned out at all well! White keeps the option of a "Big Clamp" with c3/d3, and also the direct c3/d4. Anybody know a good antidote to 2.Ne2!?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #7 - 03/06/08 at 09:51:18
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I've always been attracted by the fianchetto against the tricky Paulsen systems. By the way I was intrigued by a passage in Experts versus the Sicilian where Sune Berg Hansen proclaims that the 6.g3 line versus the Taimanov (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. g3) is considered critical while the analogus setup versus the Kan (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 a6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. g3) is harmless. This difference surpasses me! Someone here who knows what Sune bases this claim on?
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #6 - 03/05/08 at 01:35:51
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Black_Widow wrote on 03/05/08 at 01:07:25:
Against the Najdorf, the Nb3 instead of Nde2 should be played.

I don't get this, though I have read it before. Why should the knight be better on b3 than on e2 after 6.g3 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #5 - 03/05/08 at 01:07:25
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Most open g3 lines are okay. But not all recommendations from Davies are okay, but Davies is a nice book to start with. It will take you some time, to learn to play the g3 lines. For the Dragon, a good book is Der Drachentoter, and the sicilian dragon from Kasanovic. Both books are maybe difficult to get. Personally I think the g3 Dragon is equal, and it is not well playable against the accelerated dragon. Most other g3 lines are nice. Against the Najdorf, the Nb3 instead of Nde2 should be played.

The closed sicilian is easier to play and learn, but the price is, that it is rather easy in most lines, for black to obtain a nice game. A good starting book is Emms, and Starting out the Closed Sicilian from Palliser.
  
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MNb
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #4 - 03/04/08 at 21:29:53
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This problem can be met with the even more subtle 2.Ne2, though this is not always the ideal square for the knight in the Closed.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Stigma
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #3 - 03/04/08 at 13:32:01
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Davies' book is OK to get to know the typical plans for both sides; he tries to be objective and also gives some black wins. But it is five years old already, and many of the main games are from the 80s, so don't expect up-to-date theory. Davies suggests the g3-approach "reduces the need to memorise variations", but some of the lines have developed a lot in recent years, particularly in the Taimanov (where g3 is considered a main line), Kan, Najdorf and Sveshnikov.

A suggestion if you are torn between Open and Closed Sicilians: Play 2.Nc3 to keep Black guessing. After any of Black's replies both the Closed (g3), the Grand Prix (f4) and the Open (Nf3/Nge2 followed by d4) are still possible. Against 2...Nc6 or 2...d6 3.Nge2 keeps your options open one more move, if you are happy with Ne2 in the Closed. There is also 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5!?

This way you can avoid your opponents' favorite Open Sicilian. Though after 2.Nc3 e6(!) I believe White really should transpose to the Open if he wants to fight for an advantage. And with that move order you are committed to Nc3 lines versus the Kan (no 5.Bd3!)...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #2 - 03/04/08 at 12:49:57
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Uberdecker wrote on 01/22/08 at 15:28:24:
6. g3 is playable against most sicilian systems and the idea of a repertoire based around this theme is reasonnable, but the book itself is of very poor quality.


Is it a good book on a bad opening or a bad book on a good opening??  Cheesy (Good book on good opening or bad book on bad opening are other suggestions!)

I haven't seen the book, but as Uberdeker wrote, g3-variations in the open are reasonable.
  

Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Closed or Taming Sicilian
Reply #1 - 03/04/08 at 06:49:13
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Hi there,
I have heard that Taming the Sicilian was a good book on a bad opening.  I would go with the closed sicilian given this choice...  You can play 2.Nf3 and then vs 2...d6 play either d4 cd Qxd4!! or play 3.Bc4 and vs 2...Nc6 it is easy to recommend Bb5!!  finally vs 2...e6 play 3.c3 and go into an Alapin Sicilian!  if you want a pretty good book go with John Emms Attacking with 1.e4 you will find the closed sicilian, King's Indian Attack vs French. an interesting tid pit vs Caro and 150 attack vs Modern and Pirc.  Oh yeah the Bishop opening is covered.
Good luck,
Zatara
  
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e2e4
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Closed or Taming Sicilian
07/12/07 at 05:59:15
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Salut,

how about the fianchetto lines in the Sicilian for the white side?

There are two options (only white moves)

a) Closed sicilian based on KIA
e4 - Nc3 - g3 - Bg2 - d3 - Nge2 or Be3

b) "Tamed" sicilian based on the open sicilian with fianchetto
e4 - Nf3 - d4  - Nxd4 - Nc3 - g3

Which ideas behind them are easier to manage and what are the main?

Regards, e2e4
  
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