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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3 (Read 10759 times)
Chessguy
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #23 - 07/29/07 at 00:10:23
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A game between Gurevich and Tisdall in 1988 might be interesting for the g6 variation, as mentioned by Oleinikov on his Chessbase Budapest opening cd second edition.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #22 - 07/28/07 at 12:55:19
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I skimmed through the German pages mentioned above. They were indeed quite interesting. Unfortunately, most of the posts were about how White avoids the Budapest, and only one (that I saw) even mentioned the Nf3-e3 idea.  I have no idea why Udav considers this variation to be bad.

Still, I will stick to the main question of this thread.  I do understand that Nh3-f4 brings another piece to d5, but I don't see why that would be a critical consideration of why the Budapest is bad.  I'm not saying I prefer Black, but I do think White is letting Black off the hook a bit here.  I'll look up some concrete variations and post my findings in the next day or two.  (School starts back up for me soon, so I will have to do all my chess analysis in a short time.)

Cheers!
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #21 - 07/28/07 at 12:31:27
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But it is only in german  Grin
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #20 - 07/28/07 at 12:30:12
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I have never played against this variation Smiley,but I want to be prepared,if someone would choose it against me.
For every Budapestplayer!! Here is an interessting page ,which showes some ideas and the historical background of this gambit:
http://www.schachmatt.de/47-geschlossene-spiele/2117-5-kriterien-a-la-kaufman-2....
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #19 - 07/27/07 at 15:29:10
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Udav18 wrote on 07/24/07 at 11:04:57:
Hi, I play the Bpg with black for about 4,5 years now.I do not have any problems with black against any variation excepting the 4.e3 + Nh3 Variation.
Ok, I must admit ,that I have never spent any time to analyze it properly.
But I dont know really how to play against it,what plan should black have in this variation?


It would be interesting to see what problems you encountered by some sample games by you..
  
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Udav18
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #18 - 07/27/07 at 11:45:59
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The variation with Nf3 is really well known and white is not better here!
But this discussion is not part of the question"how to play against e3+Nh3?"
It seems,that black has just to develop his peaces and he will have no problems.
The plan will appear some time.It sounds a little bit primitive,but it seems that black has no concrete plan in the opening part.
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #17 - 07/27/07 at 10:36:55
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And with knights on c3 and f4 there are two of them heading to square d5 iso one. The price is an extra tempo of course. Anyhow, I don't see anything eccentric in a plan, that aims to get full control of an important centre square. After all, what is the king's knight doing on f3, except getting exchanged within a few moves? I am thinking of 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Be2 Ngxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe5. Though I will not dispute White being somewhat better here, I wonder why the exchange of a knight should benefit White, who is the one with more space. As far as I understand, 4.e3 Nxe5 5.Nh3 tries to make a better use of this knight.
  

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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #16 - 07/27/07 at 07:43:50
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Quote from Smyslov_Fan: "I'll have to look more deeply at Nf4 for White.  Regarding getting a N to d5, the most direct route seems to be Nc3-d5."

Nc3 generally runs into Bb4, often followed by Bxc3+ so that route to d5 is therefore not so usual.
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #15 - 07/27/07 at 07:05:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/27/07 at 05:37:27:
If White can play this eccentrically and get a good position, just imagine what a bit of work in the main lines would create!


Perhaps, but sometimes this attitude can lead to an obsession of studying gambit refutations!  Smiley
(or should I write "refutations"?)

BTW, as I mentioned earlier in another thread, there is an 8-page article on this line in Secrets of Opening Surprise Vol. 2:  "Get the Edge on the Budapest" by Jeroen Bosch.  5...g6 is Bogdan Lalic's main recommendation for Black in his book on the Budapest.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #14 - 07/27/07 at 05:37:27
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I'll have to look more deeply at Nf4 for White.  Regarding getting a N to d5, the most direct route seems to be Nc3-d5.

While I'm sure 5.Nh3 is interesting, it seems more a proof of the poverty of Black's position than the best move possible for White.  If White can play this eccentrically and get a good position, just imagine what a bit of work in the main lines would create!
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #13 - 07/27/07 at 02:00:23
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/27/07 at 00:39:46:
I don't want to read about dueling statistics either.  And I certainly don't want to read how someone will defend his previous comments.


Don't worry, I was done.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/27/07 at 00:39:46:
I think Udav asked the wrong question when he stated that he wanted to learn the truth about the variation, and MNb certainly got too defensive in answering the wrong question.


Maybe. My hypothesis is, that investigating 5...g6 6.Nc3 Bg7 7.Nf4 0-0 8.Be2 is a good start.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/27/07 at 00:39:46:
The question should be: Why would 4.e3 Nxe4 5.Nh3 be particularly good for White?  

Which leads to the next obvious question:  What on earth does the N on h3 do that it doesn't do on f3?  

Heading for d5. If Black prevents this with ...c6, then the long diagonal is not free anymore for his queen's bishop. Of course pawn d6 will be week.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/27/07 at 00:39:46:
World peace wouldn't be bad either.

Cheers!


Likewise.
  

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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #12 - 07/27/07 at 01:02:00
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Indeed, a collaborative effort to take learning forward.

Check out Shereshevsky, Soviet chess Conveyor for stuff about Nh3. As I remember he suggests this line. At work, lesson starting soon, so no access to the material here. But easily downloadable, free/illegally or by paying. Great work, loads of ideas. A must for every chess library.

Bibs
  
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dsanchez
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #11 - 07/27/07 at 01:00:10
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Tseitlin quotes Baginskaite - Stroe, Vilnius 1986:

5.Nh3!? Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Bxd2 7.Qxd2 d6 (it would be interesting to try 7...b6) 8.Nf4 0-0 9.Nc3 Be6 10.b3 Nbd7 (10...Nbc6 is more natural) 11.Be2 and now instead of 11...Nb6 maybe 11...Ng6 or 11...a6 12.0-0 Qh4.

Borik does not seem to mention the move 5.Nh3.

I think the move 5.Nh3 is with the idea Nf4, or perhaps f4.  But I wonder if Black's cure ...Ng6 is worse than the disease?  Maybe 5...Bc5 is not so bad, and if 6.Nf4 d6 and it seems Black has a very satisfactory position.

I think I would be more concerned with 5.Nh3 Bc5 6.f4.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #10 - 07/27/07 at 00:39:46
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Nice response, X!

Smiley


I don't want to read about dueling statistics either.  And I certainly don't want to read how someone will defend his previous comments.

I think Udav asked the wrong question when he stated that he wanted to learn the truth about the variation, and MNb certainly got too defensive in answering the wrong question.

The question should be: Why would 4.e3 Nxe4 5.Nh3 be particularly good for White? 

Which leads to the next obvious question:  What on earth does the N on h3 do that it doesn't do on f3? 

The answer to the second question may be as simple as "it keeps both sets of knights on the board, which helps White.  The problem with that answer is that I would like to dig deeper and find out why Black's knights may be uncoordinated and see what other moves give White an advantage.

I'd also like to see specific lines that show the Nh3 doing good things.

World peace wouldn't be bad either.

Cheers!

Smiley
  
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Re: Budapest Gambit with 4.e3 +Nh3
Reply #9 - 07/26/07 at 23:29:22
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*yawn*
  

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