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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5) (Read 5932 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #10 - 08/08/07 at 15:08:26
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Chessguy:

Good luck with playing 11...c5!?  There's nobody within 300 miles of me who is a strong player and includes the Catalan in his regular repertoire so I don't think the nuance of playing 11...c5 without developing the q-side first would even be noticed.  I only face the Catalan online and generally play ...c6 variations because of their similarity to Slav lines.

Let us know how this turns out for you!
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #9 - 08/08/07 at 11:28:42
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Willempie wrote on 08/07/07 at 09:05:15:
Maybe completely stupid, but isnt 14.c6 an option? I think 14..Rc8 is sorta mandatory and then 15.bxa5 Rxc6 16.Qb2.
Looks decent to me.


To me it seems that after 16... Rc2 17. Qxb5 Qa8 that black has a tremendous initiative. I would rather be black in that position. Note that white can't play Nc3 because then the bishops protection for the a5 pawn is blocked. 

I would play after 11.. c5 12. dxc Nbd7 13. b4 a5 14. a3! and after 14... axb4 then 15. Bxb4. It seems the b5 pawn and the c6 square might be weak here. Probably the reason why black delays ...c5 is that he wants to finish some more of his development first to play ...c5 under more favorable circumstances. 

I am not too sure though, because I could not find too convincing lines with my computer. Actually I think I will dare to try this line out with black in a serious classical time control game.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #8 - 08/08/07 at 06:39:55
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/07/07 at 15:58:35:
@Willempie

Your comment about 14.c6 reminds me that I once read about this simple push being the reason ...c5 isn't played in a similar position.  I have no idea if it works here, but since it hasn't been mentioned I was guessing that the computers and databases showed it doesn't work here.  Hmm.

Well I havent looked at it in any detail yet, but it seems to me the natural move.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #7 - 08/07/07 at 15:58:35
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@Willempie

Your comment about 14.c6 reminds me that I once read about this simple push being the reason ...c5 isn't played in a similar position.  I have no idea if it works here, but since it hasn't been mentioned I was guessing that the computers and databases showed it doesn't work here.  Hmm.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #6 - 08/07/07 at 09:05:15
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Maybe completely stupid, but isnt 14.c6 an option? I think 14..Rc8 is sorta mandatory and then 15.bxa5 Rxc6 16.Qb2.
Looks decent to me.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #5 - 08/07/07 at 07:11:37
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I've been reading this thread for a while and at first I thought that I had nothing worthwhile to contribute.

I think the main reason 11...c5 is not very popular is not that it's unplayable but that it will have even more force after 11...Bb7 or even more developing moves.  I think this is a case of the threat being greater than its execution.  Again, I don't think 11...c5 is actually unsound so much as it's anti-positional.  The tension created by the threat of ...c5 helps to control White's play more than actually playing it.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #4 - 08/07/07 at 06:08:19
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If there is something wrong with 11...c5, then it surely definitely has to be 12.dxc5. However, how much time did you spend in looking for alternatives to 13.b4? 13.Be3 also looks very logical to me (prepares Nc3 and/or Rd1, connects the rook and thus allows a future b4 ...a5 a3 sequence). I suppose 13...Ng4 14.Nc3 Bxf3 15.Bxf3 Nxe3 16.fxe3!? Bxc5 17.Bxa8 looks pretty wild to me.

Alternatively I looked at 17.Nd4 in the main game, but I'm not sure about that either, 17...Ne5 after all seems to gain the pair of bishops.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #3 - 08/06/07 at 13:53:14
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Hello,

The book i mentioned recommends Nd7 followed by Rc8. Also, looked in "Test of time" because there was a game in the Korchnoi match with this line, but analysis of game started several moves later. Played around with computer a bit but couldn't find anything convincing against 11... c5. Still think there should be something against this move, but can't find what.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #2 - 08/04/07 at 22:57:46
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What's puzzling is that this is such a topical line at the top level at the moment, and 11...c5 isn't a hard move to spot.  That's what makes me skeptical, but it proved a rather difficult nut to crack...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
Reply #1 - 07/30/07 at 13:37:42
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Hello,

I see what you mean, if black can get away with c5 here, it invalidates white's whole opening. This line is recommended for black in the fairly old book Beating the Flank openings, I will see what I can dig up in it.

Bye John S
  
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Closed Catalan (when/how to play ...c7-c5)
07/30/07 at 11:47:59
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I posted this in another thread that sprang back to life as soon as I brought it back to the top of the list.  With apologies for reposting, I thought it might be worth starting a new thread:

In a recent correspondence game, on the White side of the Catalan, I ran into the following position: 
 
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.d4 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O dxc4 7.Qc2 a6 8.Qxc4 b5 9.Qc2 Bb7 10.Bd2 Be4 11.Qc1 c5!?   
 
So often in the Catalan, the c7-c5 thrust is critical, but here, it looks premature (not to mention unpopular).  The top players in the world have shunned 11...c5 in favor of 11...Bb7, 11...Nbd7, and 11...Qc8, the latter two preparing c7-c5.  But why not 11...c5 immediately?  While I don't presume to compare myself to the top Catalan proponents, I had considerable difficulty finding any kind of advantage thereafter.  The game continued: 
 
12.dxc5 Nbd7 13.b4 a5 14.Nc3 Bxf3 15.Bxf3 axb4 16.Nxb5 Rb8 17.a4 Bxc5 18.Rb1 Qa5 19.Qc2 e5 20.Qb3 Nb6 21.Bxb4 Bxb4 22.Qxb4 Qxa4 23.Qxa4 Nxa4 24.Rfc1 h5 25.Rb4 Rfe8 26.e3 Red8 27.Rc2 g6 28.Kg2 Kg7  1/2-1/2 
 
So, my question: is there anything wrong with 11...c5?  If so, what did I miss?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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