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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as black (Read 5672 times)
Dji
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #13 - 08/04/07 at 20:40:58
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[quote author=megazord link=1185827578/0#0 date=1185827578]
what is the latest word on the marshall gambit?  quote]

The latest word is that the marshall gambit is the poison of e4's players! Top players have found nothing convincing and desert!  At club level plenty try to win and often lose . There are some threads about the marshall here.Take a look!
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #12 - 08/03/07 at 22:49:29
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To

Quote:
In the name of all that's good and noble about our great game, why would White respond to 3...Qf6?! with 4.Bxc6? ?


and

Quote:
Methinks there's a good reason that the results after 3...Qf6 favor White.  And there's also good reason that White's rating seems to be higher than Black's...


I couldn't agree more, gentlemen.


I first became aware of this kind of move after my quest to find something against the Lopez myself, maybe a rare sideline I told myself. So I found an article (on Silman's site) that I think (not sure) orginally apperared in Chess Monthly by Andrew Martin called " The 'If It's Good Enough For Capa' Variation."

The subject of the article is Qf6 after black plays Bc5, but after a cursory examination I found the same recipe for advantage...white aims to play d4 and embarass black's congested pieces with his overwhelming space advantage. This demonstrates two things:

1) Stats might not be everything, but they do matter in as far as they represent an opening's results.

2) Just because a high profile name is attached to it doesn't mean it's good.
  

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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #11 - 08/03/07 at 22:43:35
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3... Bc5 4.c3 Qf6 is also interesting although probably not completely sound. Look at this article by Andrew Martin.
http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/040630_if_its_gd_engh_fr_cp.html
  
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #10 - 08/03/07 at 21:17:57
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Methinks there's a good reason that the results after 3...Qf6 favor White.  And there's also good reason that White's rating seems to be higher than Black's...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #9 - 08/03/07 at 20:37:35
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In the name of all that's good and noble about our great game, why would White respond to 3...Qf6?! with 4.Bxc6? ?
  

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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #8 - 08/03/07 at 00:55:11
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I think 3...Qf6 should be looked at more carefully. I believe this setup is due for some serious analysis.

Depending on the year of your chess database, I've found an average of nearly 300 games with this position. This means it's worth a look. However my quick scanning of the game results show White is doing very well but I think this result is misleading. Most of the games are won with White but the rating strength of Black isn't that high.

If more games with levels higher than 2500 could be factored in for Black the results might look different. Without a doubt this can be considered a surprise weapon...but don't use this unless you do opening preparation beforehand.

Certainly White's big weapons include 4. d3 with the theat of Bg5 attacking the Black queen on f6. Then there's 4. Nc3 with the threat of Nd5 again attacking the Black queen on f6. Both these moves  can easily be countered by Black using h6 and Ngd7. The only question is how to develop the bishops as there's still a pawn on d7 blocking the light squared bishop on c8 and the knight move suggested blocks the dark squared bishop on f8. The big plus for Qf6 is this move anticipates White heading toward the Exchange variation with Bxc6 and Black recaptures with the Queen.

However, if White decides to challenge this setup by going ahead with the Bxc6 line...be very prepared for some wild fights. Here's one such doozy:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Qf6 4. Bxc6 Qxc6 5. Nxe5 Qxe4+ 6. Qe2 Qxg2 7. Nf3+
Be7 8. Rg1 Qh3 9. Rxg7 d5 10. d4 Bd7 11. Nc3 Qe6 *

This line is completely out of book and this will force White to think concretely at a very early stage.

  
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #7 - 08/01/07 at 11:27:21
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I looked at the Siesta once, and that would fit the bill but 5.0-0 seems to avoid it. Yes, Bg4 (with the idea of 6.h3 h5) is an agressive move after that but I think it's TOO sharp and not stable over time (you'll beat lower rateds but lose to higher) and if white knows his stuff you're dead.

On the other hand you play the Morra, so...

I would stick to the archangel recommendation...Josh Friedel has some pretty good lectures on Bc5 at chesslecture.com

Stefanova got a good game against Zhu Chen (Tuesday @ the last round North Urals Cup), eventhough she blundered twice later to lose it. You might wanna start there.
  

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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #6 - 07/31/07 at 12:23:21
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There is already a thread on this topic which I linked to above. Why not use that thread instead.
  
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #5 - 07/31/07 at 12:20:18
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megazord wrote on 07/30/07 at 20:32:58:
I am a very aggressive player and usually play openings where my pieces come out very quickly, for example I play the chigorin against 1.d4, the morra gambit against the sicilian, the milner Berry against the french, and the goring gambit against 1...e5.

What should I play as black against 1.e4. I have tried my hand a the pirc/modern, but not to my style for the pieces dont develop quickly enough to natural squares or usual squares.  I have also played quite a few sicillians, but  once again same problem.

So 1...e5 seems to be the answer.  But what do I play against the spanish 3.Bb5?  I looked at the statistics for the open variation on chessgames.com and was horrified plus in the main line it looks like black sacks a piece unwillingly for questionable compensation. 

what is the latest word on the marshall gambit?  What about the zaitsev variation?  those are both sharp, but I am seeing less and less of those on the GM level, so is there something wrong with them?


The Open and the Archangel are two that you should look at.  The Marshall is very nice for your purposes, but the main problem would be getting to play it.  There are some sharp variations of the Deferred Steinitz that might appeal to you, e.g. the Siesta Gambit.  You could also consider 3...Nf6  4.0-0 Bc5.
  

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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #4 - 07/31/07 at 11:17:12
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Hi,
perhaps the ´New Archangel`is a good opening for you! (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Bc5!?) It is an agressive answer with very active pieces for black- Shirov and others are playing it actually- so ...... Wink!

greetings!

wolfsblut
  
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #3 - 07/31/07 at 09:40:33
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Don't rely on chessgames.com for stats - far too few games on it
  
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #2 - 07/30/07 at 20:41:31
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Re: What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as blac
Reply #1 - 07/30/07 at 20:40:40
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megazord wrote on 07/30/07 at 20:32:58:
So 1...e5 seems to be the answer.  But what do I play against the spanish 3.Bb5?  I looked at the statistics for the open variation on chessgames.com and was horrified plus in the main line it looks like black sacks a piece unwillingly for questionable compensation.


What main line are you referring to?

Statistics need to be examined very critically before making conclusions. The open is unrefuted and is still played by top GMs.

I would strongly suggest the open variation as a way to meet the Spanish.


<belgian/>
  
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What to play against the the Ruy Lopez as black
07/30/07 at 20:32:58
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I am a very aggressive player and usually play openings where my pieces come out very quickly, for example I play the chigorin against 1.d4, the morra gambit against the sicilian, the milner Berry against the french, and the goring gambit against 1...e5.

What should I play as black against 1.e4. I have tried my hand a the pirc/modern, but not to my style for the pieces dont develop quickly enough to natural squares or usual squares.  I have also played quite a few sicillians, but  once again same problem.

So 1...e5 seems to be the answer.  But what do I play against the spanish 3.Bb5?  I looked at the statistics for the open variation on chessgames.com and was horrified plus in the main line it looks like black sacks a piece unwillingly for questionable compensation. 

what is the latest word on the marshall gambit?  What about the zaitsev variation?  those are both sharp, but I am seeing less and less of those on the GM level, so is there something wrong with them?
  
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