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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!? (Read 20325 times)
HgMan
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #26 - 05/17/08 at 23:41:43
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Thank you.  I remember getting the e-mail notice for 24.Be3 and thinking "that can't be right."  I was already fairly confident that I was in good shape, but rather expected something like 24.Qg3 Nxf4 25.Qxf4 Rfd8...
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #25 - 05/17/08 at 21:55:49
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Nice game!  Looks like you had excellent compensation for the pawn after move 20 and were completely winning by move 25.  Pretty finish as well.  Congratulations!

White's 24.Be3 looks like a bad decision.  What other replies did you consider when you played 23...Qb6?
  

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HgMan
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #24 - 05/17/08 at 18:22:38
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I recently won a game in this line as a member of the Chesspub Champions League team.  It seems as though I got plenty of help from my opponent, and I don't think this alters much of the theoretical discussion above, but I thought it might be worth posting here:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 d5 11.d4 Nxe4 12.dxe5 Bc5 13.Re2 Nc4 14.b3 Nb6 15.b4 Be7 16.Nd4 Bd7 17.Bf4 c5 18.bxc5 Bxc5 19.Bxe4 dxe4 20.Rxe4 Rc8 21.Qf3 Nd5 22.Re1 Be6 23.Rd1 Qb6 24.Be3 Nxe3 25.Qxe3 b4 26.Kh1 Rfd8 27.Qf3 Rxd4 28.cxd4 Bxd4 29.Nd2 Bxa1 30.Rxa1 Qd4 31.Rd1 Rd8 32.Qb7 Bxa2 33.Qc7 h6 34.Qa5 Bc4 35.Rc1 Qxd2 36.Rxc4 b3  0-1
  

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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #23 - 04/02/08 at 16:13:42
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I noticed in another thread that people cited 11.d4 from this thread as just leading to an improved "Marshall Declined"; however I notice that no-one has challenged Brabo's line below. 11...dxe4 looks most critical to me, when 12.Nxe5 c5! actually justifies the tempo expended on ...Na5 as black can bust open the position. I've been unable to find any route to real advantage for white here - I agree 13.Bg5 is far from critical. The silicon monster likes 13.Nd2 initially, but after 13...exd4 14.Nxe4 dxc3 it's already back on the equal trail - it certainly doesn't look like much for white, and it's far more open and comfortable than many of the main closed Spanish lines. As for the lines presented by Brabo, they seem critical (13.Be3 especially) - but if they're the best white can do, then 10...d5 is certainly more than playable.
  

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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #22 - 12/04/07 at 14:11:45
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Today (4.12.) Magnus tried it again!

Adams-Carlsen, WorldCup 2007

10...d5 11.ed5 e4 12.Be4 Ne4 13.Re4 Bb7 14.d4 Re8 15.Bf4 Nc4 16. Re2 Bd5 17.Ne5 Bg5 18.Bg3 Ne5 19. Re5 Re5 20. Be5 Qd7
  
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brabo
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #21 - 12/01/07 at 07:23:52
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Yesterday there was again a very interesting battle in this fashionable line. Black was taken up by nobody less than Magnus Carlsen in the 3rd round of the worldcup in Khanty-Mansiysk against Lenier Domingeuz Perez.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 d5 11.d4, de4: (The same line as played recentely by Joel Benjamin) 12. Ne5:, c5 ! (Improving over Joels play. 12.., Bb7 is less accurate due to 13. Nd2. I am sure both players were aware about this although looking at whites next move, I think Lenier didn't see this novelty coming.) 13. Bg5?!, Bb7 ( and we are back in the game of  Charbonneau - Benjamin ) 14. Nd2, cd4: 15. cd4:, Re8 16. Nb3 (Diverts), Nb3: 17. Bb3:, Nd5 18. Be7:, Re7: and black has equalised. For the rest of the game I refer to the many chesssites.

The critical position is clearly on move 13. White should choose something else than 13. Bg5. I think 13. Be3, 13. Bf4 and 13. a3 are more interesting shots for an openingadvantage for white. See:
13. Be3, Bb7 14. Nd2, Rc8 15. Qb1, Qc7 16. Ne4:, Nd5 17. Ng3 +/=
or
13. Bf4, Be6 14. Be3, cd4: 15. Bd4:, Qc7 16. Nd2, Bd6 17. Ng4, Ng4: 18. hg4: +/=
or
13. a3, Bb7 14. b4, cd4: 15. ba5:, d3 16. Bb3, Bd6 17. Ng4 +/=
  
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HgMan
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #20 - 11/23/07 at 00:58:05
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Another Champions League game, with me as Black:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 d5 11.d4 Nxe4 12.dxe5 Bc5 13.Re2

I notice brabo prefers 12.Nxe5 and 13.Nd4 as deviations from the stem above.  My feeling, however, is that 11.exd5 e4 12.Bxe4 Nxe4 13.Rxe4 Bb7 14.d3 Bxd5 15.Re1 Bd6 16.Nbd2 f5 still poses Black the most significant problems...
  

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brabo
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #19 - 11/08/07 at 06:22:34
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ghenghisclown wrote on 11/08/07 at 04:23:01:


I checked the game but nothing interesting is mentioned. After 11..., de4: 12. Ne5:, Bb7 13. Nd2 wins a pawn for which black doesn't have enough compensation. Unfortunately this isn't mentioned and makes the rest of the game redundant.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #18 - 11/08/07 at 04:23:01
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #17 - 11/02/07 at 11:50:09
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In the d4 line in the marshal declined, black usually equalises with the help of Qd7-Nd8-Ne6. Now black has played Na5? So, white has a comfortable edge after d4 and dxe5. Consider the GMs practice, not so much the computer evaluation.
  
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #16 - 10/29/07 at 19:32:58
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Ametanoitos wrote on 10/10/07 at 09:46:32:
10...d5 11.exd5 e4 12.d6 Bxd6 13.Ng5 is something for white i think. Also after 12.Bxe4 Nxe4 13.Rxe4 Bb7 13.d3 Bxd5 14.Re1 Qf6! with Qg6 and f5 i think that black has all the winning chances! The idea od 11.d4 is to enter a well known anti-Marshall with the insertion of Na5 and Bc2 which favors white.Not to mention the "free" h3 move which is usefull anyway. The d4 anti-Marshall has been used by Shirov with success. Imagine this improved version!
 Combining all these with the fact that the Marshall had a bad time in Mexico the white side of the Spanish is going great lately!


I analysed the idea 10.., d5 deeply last month and I give you hereby a short summary of my analysis.
11. d4 is indeed the most critical.
A) 11..., Ne4: 12. Ne5: (I prefer this above 12. de5: because after 12.., Bc5 13. Nd4, f6 14. e6, Re8 15. f3, Ng5 16. b4, Bd4+: 17. Qd4: whites advantage isn't clear), f6 13. Nd3, Bd6 14. Nd2, Re8 15. Ne4:, de4: 16. Nc5, f5 17. a4, Bc5: 18. dc5:, Qd1: 19. Bd1:, Be6 20. f3, Bd5 21. fe4: +/=
B) 11..., ed4: 12. e5, Ne4 13. cd4:, f5 (Here you see clearly the difference with the normal Marshall line. The keymove in this type of position is Bg4 but this is here impossible.) 14. ef6:, Bf6: 15. Nc3, Bf5 16. Ne4:, de4: 17. Be4: +/=

Anyhow accepting the pawnsacrifice with 11. ed5: is also quite testing.
11..., e4 12. Be4: (Nothing for white is 12. Ng5), Ne4: 13. Re4:, Bb7 14. d3 (I slightly prefer this move above 14. d4), Bd5: 15. Re1, Qd6 (I assume you mean this move i.s.o. 15..., Qf6 which isn't possible) 16. Nbd2, f5 17. Nf1, f4 18. N1d2, Nc6 19. Ne4, Qg6 20. Bd2 and black has still compensation but you have to admit that whites knight on e4 looks really nice.

I've tested the line with black already several times with a lot of success but I don't believe this to be a big new line of the Spanish.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #15 - 10/29/07 at 11:10:40
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Thanks!
  

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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #14 - 10/29/07 at 05:57:38
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HgMan wrote on 10/28/07 at 22:17:42:
Where is Bacrot's analysis?  Does he provide anymore information beyond 12.dxe5 ?


It's at his website (the specific page is http://chess22.fr/mambots/editors/analyses_english/games/nouveautes_bis_5.html ); he doesn't go beyond 12. de, though.

  
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HgMan
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #13 - 10/28/07 at 22:17:42
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Where is Bacrot's analysis?  Does he provide anymore information beyond 12.dxe5 ?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Marshall Gambit: A tempo down!?
Reply #12 - 10/10/07 at 09:46:32
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10...d5 11.exd5 e4 12.d6 Bxd6 13.Ng5 is something for white i think. Also after 12.Bxe4 Nxe4 13.Rxe4 Bb7 13.d3 Bxd5 14.Re1 Qf6! with Qg6 and f5 i think that black has all the winning chances! The idea od 11.d4 is to enter a well known anti-Marshall with the insertion of Na5 and Bc2 which favors white.Not to mention the "free" h3 move which is usefull anyway. The d4 anti-Marshall has been used by Shirov with success. Imagine this improved version!
  Combining all these with the fact that the Marshall had a bad time in Mexico the white side of the Spanish is going great lately!
  
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