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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5 (Read 10263 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #20 - 08/23/07 at 17:58:26
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I think of 5. cd as the standard move, though ECO has 5. Qb3 (5...Qb6 6. c5 etc.) as its (nominal) main line (it indicates 5. Qb3 and 5. cd as being equally good).  Its main line after 5. cd is 5...Nxd5 6. Nd2 (I think Yermo also favored this move) Bg6 7. e4 Nxc3 8. bc e6, += according to Miles.  Black's bishop on g6 looks somewhat odd, though reminiscent of that Topalov-Kramnik line.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #19 - 08/23/07 at 12:54:44
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In his book The Slav (Gambit, 2001), Burgess writes:

Quote:
4...Bf5?! was played in some high level games in the early part of the 20th century, but has for a long time been considered very dubious, and is no longer played at the master level.  However, it is surprisingly popular at the club level (do some Slav players really start making it up as they go along as early as move 4 in the main line?) , so it is worth investigating in some detail.  The main problem is that Black leaves b7 too exposed and in some lines there are problems with the a4-e8 diagonal.

(I love his parenthetical remark.)

4...Bf5 is definitely an inferior move, though probably not quite a blunder (with an accurate followup it doesn't directly lead to a losing position).  After 5.cxd5, Black should play 5...Nxd5 rather than 5...cxd5 but White still gets a very nice edge.

Another link where this line is mentioned:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/%7Egoeller/kenilworth-pgn/summer05/massey-lecture.pgn

And here is the famous game mentioned by Smyslov_Fan where White played 5.Qb3 instead of 5.cxd5:

Janowski,Dawid Markelowicz - Capablanca,Jose Raul [D15]
New York Rice final New York (3), 1916
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 Bf5 5.Qb3 Qb6 6.Qxb6? (better in 6.c5) 6...axb6 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Nxd5 cxd5 9.e3 Nc6 10.Bd2 Bd7 11.Be2 e6 12.0–0 Bd6 13.Rfc1 Ke7 14.Bc3 Rhc8 15.a3 Na5 16.Nd2 f5 17.g3 b5 18.f3 Nc4 19.Bxc4 bxc4 20.e4 Kf7 21.e5 Be7 22.f4 b5 23.Kf2 Ra4 24.Ke3 Rca8 25.Rab1 h6 26.Nf3 g5 27.Ne1 Rg8 28.Kf3 gxf4 29.gxf4 Raa8 30.Ng2 Rg4 31.Rg1 Rag8 32.Be1 b4 33.axb4 Ba4 34.Ra1 Bc2 35.Bg3 Be4+ 36.Kf2 h5 37.Ra7 Bxg2 38.Rxg2 h4 39.Bxh4 Rxg2+ 40.Kf3 Rxh2 41.Bxe7 Rh3+ 42.Kf2 Rb3 43.Bg5+ Kg6 44.Re7 Rxb2+ 45.Kf3 Ra8 46.Rxe6+ Kh7 0–1

5.Qb3 is playable (though perhaps not as good as 5.cxd5), but 6.Qxb6 is a mistake.

BTW, there is a nice discussion of this endgame (starting from Black's 10th move) in Shereshevsky's Endgame Strategy.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #18 - 08/23/07 at 03:34:51
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As far as I know, "blunder" is associated with the symbol "??," and means something like, a move which clearly and obviously causes such a shift in the evaluation of a position that it changes what should be the outcome of the game (such as turning a non-losing position into a losing one, or a winning position into one which is no longer winning). 

As for the database statistics, I looked at one database (Chessbase online) and noticed that, using the standard of games played since 1970 with both players at least 2400, there were three games with 5. cd Nxd5, with an even score.  It would seem that the statistics for 4...Bf5 are probably skewed due to more Black players answering 5. cd with the natural 5...cd, instead of the better (according to modern theory, at least as given in the "big books") 5...Nxd5.

To (try to) be clear, I might add that (a) I'm aware of the history of 4...Bf5 being considered weak, and (b) I'd never play it myself.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #17 - 08/23/07 at 02:25:13
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I'd consider 4...Bf5 a dubious or bad move, not quite a blunder.  Perhaps a positional blunder, but anyways...

As I mentioned before, I don't agree that Taylor shows all the best lines in that link I gave, but it's still a good article to start with.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #16 - 08/22/07 at 19:35:52
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The average ratings were fairly similar (2400-2450).

You may parse my word choice, but 4...Bf5 is not as good as the Steinitz variation of the Spanish (Ruy Lopez).  Yermolinsky is just one of many who have shown tht 4...Bf5 is a mistake.  If you are making a known mistake as early as move 4, I think it's a blunder.

In the entire ChessBase database since 1970, there were only 13 cases of a 2400+ player making this mistake.  Black was punished horribly, losing 73% of the points and losing even more in ratings.  Mikhail Tal wrote that this was a mistake in his My Life and Games.  If some big book gives White a mere +/=, that's fine.  It doesn't comport with the record though.

Btw:  the advantage of the first move generally gives about 50 elo points advantage.  I've never seen this big of an advantage in a line that's been played at least ten times.  Then again, I don't usually go searching databases for blunders like this.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #15 - 08/22/07 at 19:10:49
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/07 at 18:30:30:
The position after 4...Bf5 has occured 13 times between players rated over 2400 since 1970.  White has won 6, drawn 7 and scored 73%.  The performance rating for White versus Black was 2670 vs 22xx.  I think that pretty much proves that 4...Bf5 is a blunder.

Here's a classic way that Black tries to complicate things and an even more classic way to win:



Kortschnoj,V (2665) - Ruderfer,M (2410) [D13]
URS-chT Riga, 1975

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.d4 d5 4.Nf3 Bf5 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3 Qb6 7.Nxd5 Nxd5 8.Qxd5 e6 9.Qb3 Nc6 10.Bd2 Qxb3 11.axb3 Bc2 12.Bc3 b5 13.e3 Rb8 14.Ra6 Nb4 15.Rxa7 Bxb3 16.Ne5 Nc2+ 17.Kd2 b4 18.Nd7 bxc3+ 19.Kxc3 Rb4 20.Nxf8 Rxf8 21.Bd3 1-0

Note that Korchnoi played the accurate 5.cd5 first.  White still gets a great advantage, but not such an easy win after 5...Nd5.


I wonder how the ratings for the White and Black players compare in those games.  If, say, the Whites averaged 150 points higher, they would be expected to score in the neighborhood of 73% just due to (a) the rating difference and (b) the fact that they were White.

I'd say you're conflating the term "blunder" with some term(s) like "dubious," "inaccurate," "fishy" etc. 

You say White has a "great advantage" after 4...Bf5 5. cd Nxd5; the general view (e.g. ECO, NCO) seems to be that it is +=.  It seems comparable to calling, say, the Steinitz Defence to the Ruy a blunder (since it is universally considered +=, and is almost certainly not as good as 3...a6).


  
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Paddy
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #14 - 08/22/07 at 19:08:23
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/07 at 18:11:51:
I know there are two Janowski/Yanovsky's, but I thought they were spelled the same in English.  I was just trying to use the modern spelling of his name.  Was I mistaken to do this?  If so, mea culpa.


These two guys, both very strong players,  both of Polish origin, were of different generations and spelled their names differently (although they are pronounced the same).

David Markyelovich Janowski 1868-1927 Born in Poland, later took French citizenship. Famous for his extreme liking for the bishop pair.  Some info at
http://sbchess.sinfree.net/MonteCarlo1902_players.html

Daniel Abraham Yanofsky 1925-2000 Born in Poland, taken to Canada at eight months old. Eight-times champion of Canada. British Champion (1953). Grandmaster (1964). See
http://www.chess.ca/Yanofsky/yanofsky/biography.html

To complicate matters further, there are several present day players with (basically) the same name, including Janovsky, Sergey 2496.

Confusing, eh?

  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #13 - 08/22/07 at 19:04:01
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[Event "YUG-chT"]
[Site "Igalo"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Mikhalchishin, Adrian"]
[Black "Matulovic, Milan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "A11"]
[WhiteElo "2530"]
[BlackElo "2460"]
[PlyCount "37"]
[EventDate "1994.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2001.11.25"]

1. c4 c6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. e3 Bf5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. d4 e6 7. Bd3 Bxd3 8.
Qxd3 Nd7 9. e4 Nxc3 10. bxc3 Qc7 11. O-O Be7 ok white is better but just a tiny edge 12. e5 probably too early O-O 13. Bg5 Nb6 14. c4 Rfd8
15. a4 h6 16. Bxe7 Qxe7 17. a5 Nd7 18. Rfe1 Nb8 19. Qb3 1/2-1/2

  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #12 - 08/22/07 at 18:30:30
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The position after 4...Bf5 has occured 13 times between players rated over 2400 since 1970.  White has won 6, drawn 7 and scored 73%.  The performance rating for White versus Black was 2670 vs 22xx.  I think that pretty much proves that 4...Bf5 is a blunder.

Here's a classic way that Black tries to complicate things and an even more classic way to win:



Kortschnoj,V (2665) - Ruderfer,M (2410) [D13]
URS-chT Riga, 1975

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.d4 d5 4.Nf3 Bf5 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3 Qb6 7.Nxd5 Nxd5 8.Qxd5 e6 9.Qb3 Nc6 10.Bd2 Qxb3 11.axb3 Bc2 12.Bc3 b5 13.e3 Rb8 14.Ra6 Nb4 15.Rxa7 Bxb3 16.Ne5 Nc2+ 17.Kd2 b4 18.Nd7 bxc3+ 19.Kxc3 Rb4 20.Nxf8 Rxf8 21.Bd3 1-0

Note that Korchnoi played the accurate 5.cd5 first.  White still gets a great advantage, but not such an easy win after 5...Nd5.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #11 - 08/22/07 at 18:19:57
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I can't believe it: 

SIX grandmasters played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6? against other GMs since 1970.  The three biggest names were Bareev, Timman and Sadler.  Timman lost in a rapid game, but all the others were draws.  At least one (and probably more) looked like GM draws.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #10 - 08/22/07 at 18:11:51
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I know there are two Janowski/Yanovsky's, but I thought they were spelled the same in English.  I was just trying to use the modern spelling of his name.  Was I mistaken to do this?  If so, mea culpa.

BTW, I do consider 4...Bf5 to be a blunder.  If Capa had not made the same blunder, it would be completely forgotten (except in those countless blitz games I win when Black plays it). Shocked

I also consider 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6? to be a blunder.  Marshall was able to make an interesting gambit out of it and the big books say it's only questionable, but it's still a blunder.  You won't see modern GMs play either variation in serious matches against other GMs.  (I haven't checked my database, but I don't think I'll be proven wrong.)
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #9 - 08/22/07 at 17:15:09
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/22/07 at 16:56:36:
BTW, this is the famous Yanovsky-Capablanca line where Yanofsky didn't take the pawn and Capablanca went on to win a positional masterpiece.  Golombek and Capa both suggested that Black didn't really make a mistake in the opening, but everyone else did.  Yermolinsky made a meal of this in his Road to Chess Improvement about 50 years later.

The line with ...e6 instead of Nf6 is a bit more interesting but still fatally flawed.



You may be confusing Janowsky with Yanofsky.  And Yermo's book was about 84 years after the game.  I'm just saying.

It's perhaps interesting that ECO and NCO think that 4...Bf5 should "only" be slightly better for White.  Even though it's apparently worse than the standard moves, Taylor didn't need to use hyperbole like calling 4...Bf5 a "blunder."
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #8 - 08/22/07 at 16:56:36
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BTW, this is the famous Yanovsky-Capablanca line where Yanofsky didn't take the pawn and Capablanca went on to win a positional masterpiece.  Golombek and Capa both suggested that Black didn't really make a mistake in the opening, but everyone else did.  Yermolinsky made a meal of this in his Road to Chess Improvement about 50 years later.

The line with ...e6 instead of Nf6 is a bit more interesting but still fatally flawed.

  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #7 - 08/22/07 at 15:48:04
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By the way, thanks for the article.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bf5
Reply #6 - 08/22/07 at 15:12:15
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/22/07 at 14:21:36:
At a couple of places I'd prefer other tries for White than Taylor shows (particularly after 5...Nxd5), but this article basically shows why 4...Bf5 is considered virtually refuted.


Firstly, I don't think that e3 is the strongest move for White. And I think like Dji that "white have to play precise moves to maintain the advantage "

  
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