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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) colle zukertort (Read 53336 times)
kylemeister
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #50 - 06/12/11 at 16:37:09
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I wonder who some of these GMs are who have regularly played the Colle-Zukertort.  It's hard for me to recall noticing any (except to a certain degree Yusupov).  For example Aaron Summerscale, who advocated it in books/videos, doesn't appear to have played it much.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #49 - 06/12/11 at 16:08:03
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I have to say, I never liked combining the Colle system with the Zukertort system. They are two distinct methods of play with two very different sets of goals in mind.

The Colle, as played by the eponymous Belgian, is a rather toothless line where white voluntarily plays d4, e3, c3 without developing the dark-squared Bishop.

The Zukertort, which has been played quite often by GM Yusupov, is a much more active Kewpie (pronounced, "QP") system with the dark squared Bishop being fianchettoed and often without the cumbersome c2-c3 move ever being played.

They are not the same system. The Colle is a poor opening in that it is very difficult for white to strive for any active advantage out of the opening. The Zukertort is much more active and can be played even by strong GMs as a regular repertoire choice.

I think only Kovacevic played the Colle regularly among active GMs in the last 20 years. The Zukertort has been played regularly by quite a few GMs.
  
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Hehmer
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #48 - 06/12/11 at 14:56:47
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Ender wrote on 04/06/11 at 17:05:44:
TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?


It may easily be the best book on that subject ever written. He confines himself to lines where Black plays d5 and e6, so no Anti-Colle lines. It's not a repertoire book at all. He rather tries to explain all available strategies for both sides with great objectivity.

The only thing sorely missing is a variation index. If you need one you have to create it for yourself.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #47 - 06/11/11 at 16:55:05
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Ender wrote on 04/06/11 at 17:05:44:
TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?


I am going to say that I am disappointed. I think it suffers from something that should be obvious. The reason I and probably anyone have looked into the Colle is for a 'simple' opening, easy to play, not a lot of memorization or research, right?

Unfortunately, the 'games format' books, does not lend itself so easily to the tranpositions and what to do if black plays 'this or that' early. The old 'tree format' books do that so much better - puts it right on your plate so to speak! And that is what your average Colle player desires.

So, format is 'bad' for an easy to learn opening. I've got 3 books on the Colle and still would not feel comfortable playing it because I haven't the time to put into 'putting it all together' right now.

It's a shame Eric Prie does not cover the Colle in any form too much. The downloadable books from this site have too many holes...and this how many years on??

--Leavenfish
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #46 - 04/06/11 at 17:05:44
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TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?
  

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TalJechin
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #45 - 06/01/10 at 10:53:05
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Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #44 - 05/31/10 at 16:09:26
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FirebrandX wrote on 05/31/10 at 07:08:15:
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bd6 5. b3 Nbd7 6. Bb2 b6 7. Nbd2 Bb7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Ne5 Ne4 10. f3 Nxd2 11. Qxd2


NCO cites Rashkovsky-Aseev, with essentially these moves, as equal.  Surely it's not too surprising that Black can do this sort of thing against a tame opening like the C-Z, and perhaps "force" White to play into some sort of normal 4. e3 QID.  (For instance, in the path given by MNb, the same book thinks 8...Nbd7 should lead to equality.  I believe Botvinnik liked to play that way as Black, and I'm reminded of a game Lombardy-Keene, annotated in a book by the latter, in which White got an advantage after Black did something dubious.)
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #43 - 05/31/10 at 10:22:48
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Well, look at the experts. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.0-0 d5 6.b3 Bd6 7.Bb2 0-0 8.c4 c5 9.cxd5 exd5 10.Nc3
a) 10...Nc6 11.Ne2 Qe7 12.Ng3 Portisch-Onischuk, Biel 1996.
b) 10...Nc6 11.Ne2 Re8 12.Rc1 Ne4 13.Ng3 cxd4 Portisch-Sokolov, Linares 1989, 14.Bb5 (Avrukh).
c) 10...Nbd7 11.Rc1 Qe7 12.Nb5 Kurajica-Granda Zuniga, Groningen 1997.
d) 10...Nbd7 11.Rc1 Re8 12.Bf5 Ne4 Danner-Sokolov, Ostrava 1994 and I am sure that you will find a promising deviation here.
If not, try 11.Qe2.
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #42 - 05/31/10 at 07:08:15
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Speaking of the CZ, I've got a question for those that know the lines:

What do you do if black mimics every move you make in the CZ up to the point where the opening is finished? I have 2 different CZ books and neither cover this problem. Both books assume d5 will be followed up with c5 by black, and in the case of the QID, the repertoire assumes that black has not played d5. Do I play for the QID or keep going with the CZ?

So anyway, I had a player pull the mimic as black and I could not find away to force the typical kingside attack white gets in the CZ. Instead, I had to play a slow grind in the center and eventually I won the endgame just barely. I was quite annoyed to say the least, so I plugged the opening into Rybka and was disappointed to see that black is actually perfectly fine playing mimic to the CZ structure. Below was the opening from my game, but I really feel like I missed how to "correctly" play against black's move order. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!


1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bd6 5. b3 Nbd7 6. Bb2 b6 7. Nbd2 Bb7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Ne5 Ne4 10. f3 Nxd2 11. Qxd2

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #41 - 05/04/09 at 11:14:15
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miamisharks wrote on 05/04/09 at 03:16:57:
The whole idea that an 1800 can produce an opening book is an insult to everyone's intelligence.


I'm not feeling offended. Anyone can produce an opening book, certainly in this day and age. Producing a "good" opening book that will sell is a different matter all together. But again that's up to the people that might buy it.

In the end, most of the people on this forum produce an opening repertoire. Making a book off it would be the easiest part with all the available software.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #40 - 05/04/09 at 03:16:57
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The whole idea that an 1800 can produce an opening book is an insult to everyone's intelligence.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #39 - 01/11/09 at 03:49:14
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I've been watching the new DVD by Nigel Davies on the Colle-Zukertort and one thing that comes across again and again in his analysis is that White should be prepared to play an early c2-c4. Early on he says the Colle-Z is an excellent opening, better than the regular c3-Colle because it's more flexible, giving White more opportunities to take advantage of Black move orders.

For example, he repeatedly says that when Black plays ... Nbd7, White should consider c2-c4 because he can get a favorable version of hanging pawns. The same is true when Black plays ... Qe7 as in the main lines with ... Nc6 and ...Bd6. Davies says it's misplaced on e7 against White's hanging pawns.

I like his style of analyzing the games and recommend his DVD to Colle-Z players.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #38 - 12/23/08 at 01:18:18
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From my research into this opening, the only thing it can be used to force is the 4.e3 variation of the QID. Other than that, when you play the CZ you are asking your opponent to decide what to play.

That has nearly, but not completely, turned me from playing it. On that issue, I wonder if White has less work using the CZ, despite this drawback. It's clear you have less control over the opening to be played. The workload relative to using another d-pawn special is not so clear at all. No one has made any attempt to clarify this issue either.

On Rudel's book, which I've read very, very closely up to the half-way mark, I think:

a) it could have been organized better
b) it assumes some chess knowledge which presents a cognitive gap for 1300 players
c) parts of it are better than some of the stuff already in circulation on the CZ.
d) it has too many typos but that due to the nature of the publishing process with this sort of book, I think.

I would describe myself as an active as opposed to passive chess book reader. As an aging B class player/sometime A class player, and nearly retired science teacher, I struggled with it in certain places to extract real meaning. There were times I was "in the light" of the author's message and, at other times, I was in the dark.

I would say the book has its moments. The book was certainly no half-hearted attempt -- that I can assure you! It's not perfect either, but it's difficult to buy any that are, right?

Compared to Soltis' CZ, I would give it more than a passing grade.

I've not ready Palliser's book yet. If that's not it, I'll say that the best CZ book has yet to be written.

I also think, like some other posters here, that you should gather information from reading a book before making remarks about the book. Everyone deserves the right to a fair trial but that doesn't always happen in these Forums.

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #37 - 12/21/08 at 12:09:47
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Hi All

I purchased "Zuke em" out of curiosity.

The biggest problem that most Amateurs have is basically assessing a position, certainly when writing a book. That said this book is really very good and Mr Rudel is to be congratulated. All of the above pro-active comments I agree with and as for the others get the book and then comment.

I would say that this book could be utilised by all players upto say ELO 2000 but beyond that the CZ is not really a main weapon but you could play it like GM Artur Yusupov who uses it against certain move orders and particular opponents.

If only all opening books were written like this I don't think there could be too many arguments.

Merry Xmas all.

Akita      
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #36 - 09/27/08 at 14:28:58
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STEFANOS wrote on 09/27/08 at 11:14:17:
Amateurs like Sliman ( no Silman) believed the stories of Hommer and discovered Troy and Mycenes, so let's be more patient with Rudel's book.Also I may remember excellent chess players ( who never became GM,but the they invented amazing ideas in  chess , like Alvis Vitolins.


This amateur was not called Sliman but Schliemann. I have always wondered if he had something indirectly to do with 3...f5. Note thet Vitolinsh (with h) had a much higher rating than most contributors here and had much more right to be called an expert.
Anyhow, Mr.Rudel calling himself an expert on the Colle-Zukertort is not a capital crime, only immodest. My problem is that I have some reasons to doubt his chessintegrity. That's why I will not buy his book, though I was initially interested.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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