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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) colle zukertort (Read 52311 times)
kylemeister
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #50 - 06/12/11 at 16:37:09
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I wonder who some of these GMs are who have regularly played the Colle-Zukertort.  It's hard for me to recall noticing any (except to a certain degree Yusupov).  For example Aaron Summerscale, who advocated it in books/videos, doesn't appear to have played it much.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #49 - 06/12/11 at 16:08:03
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I have to say, I never liked combining the Colle system with the Zukertort system. They are two distinct methods of play with two very different sets of goals in mind.

The Colle, as played by the eponymous Belgian, is a rather toothless line where white voluntarily plays d4, e3, c3 without developing the dark-squared Bishop.

The Zukertort, which has been played quite often by GM Yusupov, is a much more active Kewpie (pronounced, "QP") system with the dark squared Bishop being fianchettoed and often without the cumbersome c2-c3 move ever being played.

They are not the same system. The Colle is a poor opening in that it is very difficult for white to strive for any active advantage out of the opening. The Zukertort is much more active and can be played even by strong GMs as a regular repertoire choice.

I think only Kovacevic played the Colle regularly among active GMs in the last 20 years. The Zukertort has been played regularly by quite a few GMs.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #48 - 06/12/11 at 14:56:47
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Ender wrote on 04/06/11 at 17:05:44:
TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?


It may easily be the best book on that subject ever written. He confines himself to lines where Black plays d5 and e6, so no Anti-Colle lines. It's not a repertoire book at all. He rather tries to explain all available strategies for both sides with great objectivity.

The only thing sorely missing is a variation index. If you need one you have to create it for yourself.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #47 - 06/11/11 at 16:55:05
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Ender wrote on 04/06/11 at 17:05:44:
TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?


I am going to say that I am disappointed. I think it suffers from something that should be obvious. The reason I and probably anyone have looked into the Colle is for a 'simple' opening, easy to play, not a lot of memorization or research, right?

Unfortunately, the 'games format' books, does not lend itself so easily to the tranpositions and what to do if black plays 'this or that' early. The old 'tree format' books do that so much better - puts it right on your plate so to speak! And that is what your average Colle player desires.

So, format is 'bad' for an easy to learn opening. I've got 3 books on the Colle and still would not feel comfortable playing it because I haven't the time to put into 'putting it all together' right now.

It's a shame Eric Prie does not cover the Colle in any form too much. The downloadable books from this site have too many holes...and this how many years on??

--Leavenfish
   USCF 2100
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #46 - 04/06/11 at 17:05:44
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TalJechin wrote on 06/01/10 at 10:53:05:
Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010


Is this book any good?
  

2200. Amateur!
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TalJechin
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #45 - 06/01/10 at 10:53:05
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Just noticed that Moongoosepress also has a new Colle book in the pipeline. Seems to be a big demand for books on a system which you don't really need a book to learn...

The Zukertort System: A Guide for White and Black by Grigory Bogdanovich
Foreword by Artur Yusupov
Estimated publication date October 2010
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #44 - 05/31/10 at 16:09:26
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FirebrandX wrote on 05/31/10 at 07:08:15:
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bd6 5. b3 Nbd7 6. Bb2 b6 7. Nbd2 Bb7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Ne5 Ne4 10. f3 Nxd2 11. Qxd2


NCO cites Rashkovsky-Aseev, with essentially these moves, as equal.  Surely it's not too surprising that Black can do this sort of thing against a tame opening like the C-Z, and perhaps "force" White to play into some sort of normal 4. e3 QID.  (For instance, in the path given by MNb, the same book thinks 8...Nbd7 should lead to equality.  I believe Botvinnik liked to play that way as Black, and I'm reminded of a game Lombardy-Keene, annotated in a book by the latter, in which White got an advantage after Black did something dubious.)
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #43 - 05/31/10 at 10:22:48
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Well, look at the experts. 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.0-0 d5 6.b3 Bd6 7.Bb2 0-0 8.c4 c5 9.cxd5 exd5 10.Nc3
a) 10...Nc6 11.Ne2 Qe7 12.Ng3 Portisch-Onischuk, Biel 1996.
b) 10...Nc6 11.Ne2 Re8 12.Rc1 Ne4 13.Ng3 cxd4 Portisch-Sokolov, Linares 1989, 14.Bb5 (Avrukh).
c) 10...Nbd7 11.Rc1 Qe7 12.Nb5 Kurajica-Granda Zuniga, Groningen 1997.
d) 10...Nbd7 11.Rc1 Re8 12.Bf5 Ne4 Danner-Sokolov, Ostrava 1994 and I am sure that you will find a promising deviation here.
If not, try 11.Qe2.
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #42 - 05/31/10 at 07:08:15
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Speaking of the CZ, I've got a question for those that know the lines:

What do you do if black mimics every move you make in the CZ up to the point where the opening is finished? I have 2 different CZ books and neither cover this problem. Both books assume d5 will be followed up with c5 by black, and in the case of the QID, the repertoire assumes that black has not played d5. Do I play for the QID or keep going with the CZ?

So anyway, I had a player pull the mimic as black and I could not find away to force the typical kingside attack white gets in the CZ. Instead, I had to play a slow grind in the center and eventually I won the endgame just barely. I was quite annoyed to say the least, so I plugged the opening into Rybka and was disappointed to see that black is actually perfectly fine playing mimic to the CZ structure. Below was the opening from my game, but I really feel like I missed how to "correctly" play against black's move order. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!


1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 Bd6 5. b3 Nbd7 6. Bb2 b6 7. Nbd2 Bb7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Ne5 Ne4 10. f3 Nxd2 11. Qxd2

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #41 - 05/04/09 at 11:14:15
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miamisharks wrote on 05/04/09 at 03:16:57:
The whole idea that an 1800 can produce an opening book is an insult to everyone's intelligence.


I'm not feeling offended. Anyone can produce an opening book, certainly in this day and age. Producing a "good" opening book that will sell is a different matter all together. But again that's up to the people that might buy it.

In the end, most of the people on this forum produce an opening repertoire. Making a book off it would be the easiest part with all the available software.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #40 - 05/04/09 at 03:16:57
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The whole idea that an 1800 can produce an opening book is an insult to everyone's intelligence.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #39 - 01/11/09 at 03:49:14
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I've been watching the new DVD by Nigel Davies on the Colle-Zukertort and one thing that comes across again and again in his analysis is that White should be prepared to play an early c2-c4. Early on he says the Colle-Z is an excellent opening, better than the regular c3-Colle because it's more flexible, giving White more opportunities to take advantage of Black move orders.

For example, he repeatedly says that when Black plays ... Nbd7, White should consider c2-c4 because he can get a favorable version of hanging pawns. The same is true when Black plays ... Qe7 as in the main lines with ... Nc6 and ...Bd6. Davies says it's misplaced on e7 against White's hanging pawns.

I like his style of analyzing the games and recommend his DVD to Colle-Z players.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #38 - 12/23/08 at 01:18:18
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From my research into this opening, the only thing it can be used to force is the 4.e3 variation of the QID. Other than that, when you play the CZ you are asking your opponent to decide what to play.

That has nearly, but not completely, turned me from playing it. On that issue, I wonder if White has less work using the CZ, despite this drawback. It's clear you have less control over the opening to be played. The workload relative to using another d-pawn special is not so clear at all. No one has made any attempt to clarify this issue either.

On Rudel's book, which I've read very, very closely up to the half-way mark, I think:

a) it could have been organized better
b) it assumes some chess knowledge which presents a cognitive gap for 1300 players
c) parts of it are better than some of the stuff already in circulation on the CZ.
d) it has too many typos but that due to the nature of the publishing process with this sort of book, I think.

I would describe myself as an active as opposed to passive chess book reader. As an aging B class player/sometime A class player, and nearly retired science teacher, I struggled with it in certain places to extract real meaning. There were times I was "in the light" of the author's message and, at other times, I was in the dark.

I would say the book has its moments. The book was certainly no half-hearted attempt -- that I can assure you! It's not perfect either, but it's difficult to buy any that are, right?

Compared to Soltis' CZ, I would give it more than a passing grade.

I've not ready Palliser's book yet. If that's not it, I'll say that the best CZ book has yet to be written.

I also think, like some other posters here, that you should gather information from reading a book before making remarks about the book. Everyone deserves the right to a fair trial but that doesn't always happen in these Forums.

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #37 - 12/21/08 at 12:09:47
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Hi All

I purchased "Zuke em" out of curiosity.

The biggest problem that most Amateurs have is basically assessing a position, certainly when writing a book. That said this book is really very good and Mr Rudel is to be congratulated. All of the above pro-active comments I agree with and as for the others get the book and then comment.

I would say that this book could be utilised by all players upto say ELO 2000 but beyond that the CZ is not really a main weapon but you could play it like GM Artur Yusupov who uses it against certain move orders and particular opponents.

If only all opening books were written like this I don't think there could be too many arguments.

Merry Xmas all.

Akita      
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #36 - 09/27/08 at 14:28:58
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STEFANOS wrote on 09/27/08 at 11:14:17:
Amateurs like Sliman ( no Silman) believed the stories of Hommer and discovered Troy and Mycenes, so let's be more patient with Rudel's book.Also I may remember excellent chess players ( who never became GM,but the they invented amazing ideas in  chess , like Alvis Vitolins.


This amateur was not called Sliman but Schliemann. I have always wondered if he had something indirectly to do with 3...f5. Note thet Vitolinsh (with h) had a much higher rating than most contributors here and had much more right to be called an expert.
Anyhow, Mr.Rudel calling himself an expert on the Colle-Zukertort is not a capital crime, only immodest. My problem is that I have some reasons to doubt his chessintegrity. That's why I will not buy his book, though I was initially interested.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #35 - 09/27/08 at 11:14:17
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Guys,
With so many comments on Rudel's book, I decided to buy it, just curiosity. Before we jugde a book we must read it. I Know it is the first time I am going to read a book from a player rated below me!!
But before to comment on it , I must read it. We have rubbish even from GM's , the craziest example is Soltis, he has written lot of excelllent books, but many for the toilet. Or we may mention Gufeld's last decade books, etc. The mistake for Rudel is claiming to be an expert on the line.Expert for me means he played the opening for years over the board, he has a positive score with it etc. Like Yussupov in the line. Playing on ICC or in various sources on the net do not make you an expert, but simply a lover.Sliman says the book is for players around 1300-1900 , so Iam in, also I ordered and Palliser's book, I will try to do a fair comparison, but up till now what I have read from Palliser is excellent.
Amateurs like Sliman ( no Silman) believed the stories of Hommer and discovered Troy and Mycenes, so let's be more patient with Rudel's book.Also I may remember excellent chess players ( who never became GM,but the they invented amazing ideas in  chess , like Alvis Vitolins.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #34 - 09/13/08 at 12:22:00
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Maybe this is the right place for a table of contents of Richard Palliser´s

Starting out : d-pawn attacks (Everyman 2008, 272 pages)

004  Bibliography
005  Introduction
          - The Colle-Zukertort
          - The Barry Attack
          - The 150 Attack
          - Do these three attacks promise an objective advantage?
          - Is this a complete repertoire for white?
009  1  The Colle-Zukertort against ...Be7 set-ups
          - The early moves
          - Black plays ...Nc6
          - Black plays ...Nbd7
          - An early ...b6
052  2  The Colle-Zukertort against ...Bd6 set-ups
          - Introduction
          - Black plays ...Nbd7
          - Black plays ...Nc6
          - The main line 8...Qe7
111  3  Other Defences to the Colle-Zukertort
          - Rare approaches
          - An early check
          - The Colle-Zukertort against the Semi-Slav
140  4  The Colle Queen´s Indian
          - Introduction
          - A Colle-Zukertort approach
          - The e3 Queen´s Indian
          - A tricky move order: 2...b6
189  5  The Barry Attack
          - Introduction
          - The solid 4...c6
          - The Tarzan attack
214  6  The Main Line Barry
          - White plays 5e3
          - Black plays 6...c5
          - Forcing White to go short: 7Ne5 Nc6
246  7  The 150 Attack
          - Introduction
          - Black castles quickly
          - Black delays castling
          - The 150 attack against the Modern
267  Index of variations
271  Index of complete games

****************************************

Maybe I´m a little bit stronger than the targeted audience
(club players 1400-2000 ?!) and further I had more general
interests for buying this book (as Palliser always makes a
good job and as I´m interested in some transpositions after
1b3!). Seems to be a good and very readable book about
these systems. I don´t know if I would recommend to anyone
to play the Colle-Zukertort, but if you have decided to do so
then this is definitely the book to learn from - a must buy!

Btw, Palliser doesn´t cover white set-ups (and especially no
C-Z set-ups!) against Slav, delayed Grünfeld, Dutch and Benoni.
Maybe dissapointing for some readers but certainly more honest
than other authors.
Looking only at some free pages of the Zuke´em book it becomes
obviously for any serious chess student that Rudel´s book contains
much rubbish...

tracke Smiley
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #33 - 09/13/08 at 00:20:55
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More Colle-Zukertorts please
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #32 - 08/04/08 at 02:20:15
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Zuke'em - The Colle Zukertort Revolutionized......

Finally, That book is on my hands and what a surprise... Shocked

It is like having the Author in front of you talking to you about the opening with so much love that I never see before on any of the other books of my collection (and is quite big).

What imprested me the most is the very detailed explanation of practical ideas that the author spend a lot of time to teach you of what each piece role is on that opening.

I don’t care if he is not "titled" since these days with Computers and databases everyone can write a book, but definitely that guy put a lot of work to get that book out to press.

from Author Bio "David Rudel is a published Mathematician that won Texas state Championships in both math and physics, taught at Dartmouth, and was on the highest ranking team among all undergraduate institutions in the 1997 Pytnam competition"....

So, I guess that author is a smart guy and he deserve people to take him more seriously and not bashing him because he decide to write a book of chess without having a title but instead give it a try and they will not be disappointed.

Overall, the humor, attitude and feeling of that book is like having a conversation with someone that loves that opening so much that decide to reveal all his secrets in your expense. 

I do own the book of Lane and Summerscale and that book here definitely takes the cake on my view. Definitely different from any other book that you read and is worth every penny that I spend to get it.

Well done David! Smiley
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #31 - 07/28/08 at 20:00:21
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Placed an order from Amazon to receive a copy of Zuke 'Em!.

So far, I am imprest of the Author site on that book and the overall presentation of it and I'll love to see other books to be promoted in that way in the future.

That opening is part of my repertoire for the last year with excellent results. I hope for a refrecing view from that new author that maybe  will give me something extra that I didn't see before. Smiley

I'll post back my personal review of that book when I received it and read through it.

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #30 - 07/22/08 at 00:01:42
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Antillian wrote on 07/21/08 at 13:24:25:
MNb wrote on 07/21/08 at 02:23:55:
Antillian wrote on 07/21/08 at 01:22:10:
Good luck in your next book on nuclear physics.

As all books on nuclear physics have been written by more than qualified people and none of these books are readable for the common (wo)man, this actually is an argument in favour of Zukertort. This does not mean though that I agree with Zukertort. The lower the rating of the author the more sceptical we should be. I mean, I know a little about very few variations, but I would not call myself an expert, even if I have something sensible to say now and then.


I suppose a joke falls flat when you have to explain it. My point is that if he presumes to be an opening expert by writing a book when at 1300 ELO he is far from being such, then why stop there. Why not nuclear physics or some other complex subject. Afterall expertise does not matter right in writing books on complex subjects!!


Oh, I got the joke and I liked it. I just could not resist the temptation of turning your joke against you.  Wink And I thought I had made clear that I doubt very much the validity Rudel's (self-claimed?) expert status. I also want to add that I am not very amused by the trick of an author promoting himself via an alias. As I had not got it I feel deceived. It is very recommendable that any author promotes his work on this site - under his own name. I am not sorry for Mr. Rudel, this is the decisive reason for me not to buy his book. I see Zukertort's comments on his favourite opening in another, rather negative light.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #29 - 07/21/08 at 13:24:25
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MNb wrote on 07/21/08 at 02:23:55:
Antillian wrote on 07/21/08 at 01:22:10:
Good luck in your next book on nuclear physics.

As all books on nuclear physics have been written by more than qualified people and none of these books are readable for the common (wo)man, this actually is an argument in favour of Zukertort. This does not mean though that I agree with Zukertort. The lower the rating of the author the more sceptical we should be. I mean, I know a little about very few variations, but I would not call myself an expert, even if I have something sensible to say now and then.


I suppose a joke falls flat when you have to explain it. My point is that if he presumes to be an opening expert by writing a book when at 1300 ELO he is far from being such, then why stop there. Why not nuclear physics or some other complex subject. Afterall expertise does not matter right in writing books on complex subjects!!
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #28 - 07/21/08 at 02:23:55
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Zukertort wrote on 07/20/08 at 23:44:12:
I am basing the Burgess remark on Silman's review of "The Queen's Indian" by Aagaard (http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_queen_indian_defence.html)

Indeed  does not write that Burgess had ELO 1600 when writing his first chessbook.
Quote:
the English chess writer (Burgess, MNb) was too weak to properly represent his subject. While I can understand his anger at 1600’s daring to write chessbooks, he was widely missing the mark in the case of Burgess, who stands out as an excellent technical chess author (and I should add that the book in question was by far the best ever on that subject).

Even for a native Dutch speaker like me this is crystal clear.

Funny to read that Silman has some long toes as well.

Antillian wrote on 07/21/08 at 01:22:10:
Good luck in your next book on nuclear physics.

As all books on nuclear physics have been written by more than qualified people and none of these books are readable for the common (wo)man, this actually is an argument in favour of Zukertort. This does not mean though that I agree with Zukertort. The lower the rating of the author the more sceptical we should be. I mean, I know a little about very few variations, but I would not call myself an expert, even if I have something sensible to say now and then.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #27 - 07/21/08 at 01:22:10
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Zukertort wrote on 07/20/08 at 23:44:12:

I am basing the Burgess remark on Silman's review of "The Queen's Indian" by Aagaard (http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_queen_indian_defence.html)

Why a review of Aagaard's book has anything to do Burgess' work I'll let you read to find out.

You guys are welcome to write in to Jeremy and ask him about why he is publishing "bul$hit verging on libel."


You totally missed the point of Jeremy's comments. Are you not familiar with the concept of hyperpole? Silman was NOT saying that Burgess was 1600. He was speaking in hyperbole in reaction to the poor review. If you are such a decent book writer, you should have done your research. A simple search will show you that the book by Burgess was published in November 2000. Burgess' rating in Jan 2000 was 2300. Decent book writers can do simple research.

Zukertort wrote on 07/20/08 at 23:44:12:

As for the rest, you guys are awfully confident in your ability to judge a book you've never read written by a person you don't know.


Yes, sorry. 1300's simply are not qualified to write opening chess books. That is enough for me. It is like George W. Bush writing a book on common sense.

Zukertort wrote on 07/20/08 at 23:44:12:

Given that the author shipped at his own expense every person in the US who bought the original version a free copy of the revised (so you might well find several copies of that original version by such customers), it's hard to suggest that profit-motive is the driving force here.


Hurray, do you want a congressional medal of honour?  It does not matter what your motives are. It could be fame or fortune. I don't know. The point is that you are presumptuous to think that you are qualified enough to write an instructive chess opening chess book for club players. You are not!! I hope no one is duped into buying this

Zukertort wrote on 07/19/08 at 19:24:35:
And I'm sure we are all aware of players who are highly rated and write terrible books.


And your point is? There are terrible lawyers who have passed the bar.   I still am not going to any Tom, Dick or Harry who claims to be a lawyer.  There are terrible doctors who have medical licenses. What is your point?

Good luck in your next book on nuclear physics.
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #26 - 07/21/08 at 00:46:43
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Zukertort wrote on 07/19/08 at 19:24:35:
It's not like this is a general-audience book. If you are a serious player and use any of the Queen-Pawn game variations [in particular the C-Z or the normal Colle] as standard parts of your repertoire, it would be pretty odd not to get the book. I even bought Schiller's and (worse) Soltis' book on the Colle-Zukertort...why? Because it makes sense to spend 30 dollars every 2 years to see new ideas or new explanations of old ones. 


Wow! What a sales pitch. Buy this book even though it might be terrible like Schiller's. Remind me not to hire you to do sales for my company.  Grin
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #25 - 07/21/08 at 00:44:57
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Aliyah wrote on 07/20/08 at 10:11:33:
I should have thought it was obvious that Zukertort = David Rudel = the author of "Zuke 'Em!".

BTW, he's selling the typo-ridden 1st edition of his book, published by Thinker's Press (which nowadays is merely a vanity press - the author pays to have the book printed) on eBay for the low, low price of $44.37 [yes, forty-four dollars and thirty-seven cents] plus shipping, as a collectible.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190237367463&ssPageName=...

No bidders so far, but don't let that stop you...


Actually, I'm his pet cactus...but don't tell him I use the computer when he goes off to flip burgers (he works the night-shift at Waffle house).
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #24 - 07/20/08 at 23:44:12
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kylemeister wrote on 07/19/08 at 19:43:06:
The earliest book by Burgess (born 1968) I know of is one on the Classical KID from 1990.  He apparently became an FM in 1988 or 1989, and was rated 2335 at Gausdal 1990.

BTW, I suppose the Caro-Kann bit probably pertains to 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 3. e3 with ...cd, resulting in a sideline of the Exchange.  Though there are other possibilities, like 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6 3. Nbd2 Nd7 4. e4, or 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6 3. Nbd2 g6 4. e4 if you're classifying the Gurg as a Caro ...


I am basing the Burgess remark on Silman's review of "The Queen's Indian" by Aagaard (http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_queen_indian_defence.html)

Why a review of Aagaard's book has anything to do Burgess' work I'll let you read to find out.

You guys are welcome to write in to Jeremy and ask him about why he is publishing "bul$hit verging on libel."

As for the rest, you guys are awfully confident in your ability to judge a book you've never read written by a person you don't know.

Given that the author shipped at his own expense every person in the US who bought the original version a free copy of the revised (so you might well find several copies of that original version by such customers), it's hard to suggest that profit-motive is the driving force here.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #23 - 07/20/08 at 10:27:42
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Zukertort wrote on 07/19/08 at 19:24:35:
For whatever it's worth, Burgess was in the 1600s [or lower, I forget], when he started writing chess books...and he has written some pretty important/highly-rated/useful books.



Utter bullsh$t. As Kylemeister notes. Verging on the libellous, if anyone could really be arsed.

Rudel perhaps the lowest rated player ever to get published? Seance to get Norris McWhirter to confirm? Or Roy Castle would do. Doesn't need his trumpet. That said, it may, possibly, be an adequate work and some hard work may have been put in. Readers may however be best advised to be sceptical of any judgments found therein.

I would be charitable and wish the author luck, but false claims of 'expertise' tend to rile me somewhat. One person makes money as another spends it.  Some unsuspecting sorts (kids, kids' parents at bookstalls at kiddie tourneys) who may feel the urge to spend their hard-earned may take such claims at face value.

Aliyah - er, yes, we know.  Well, that or his mum. Was mildly amusing for all parties to refer to Mr Rudel in the 3rd person though. Just wondering when the author was going to out himself. Or her son.

Great cover though. More chess books with paratroopers please.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #22 - 07/20/08 at 10:11:33
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I should have thought it was obvious that Zukertort = David Rudel = the author of "Zuke 'Em!".

BTW, he's selling the typo-ridden 1st edition of his book, published by Thinker's Press (which nowadays is merely a vanity press - the author pays to have the book printed) on eBay for the low, low price of $44.37 [yes, forty-four dollars and thirty-seven cents] plus shipping, as a collectible.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190237367463&ssPageName=...

No bidders so far, but don't let that stop you...
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #21 - 07/19/08 at 19:43:06
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The earliest book by Burgess (born 1968) I know of is one on the Classical KID from 1990.  He apparently became an FM in 1988 or 1989, and was rated 2335 at Gausdal 1990.

BTW, I suppose the Caro-Kann bit probably pertains to 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 3. e3 with ...cd, resulting in a sideline of the Exchange.  Though there are other possibilities, like 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6 3. Nbd2 Nd7 4. e4, or 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6 3. Nbd2 g6 4. e4 if you're classifying the Gurg as a Caro ...
« Last Edit: 07/19/08 at 21:03:47 by kylemeister »  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #20 - 07/19/08 at 19:24:35
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For whatever it's worth, Burgess was in the 1600s [or lower, I forget], when he started writing chess books...and he has written some pretty important/highly-rated/useful books.

And I'm sure we are all aware of players who are highly rated and write terrible books.

It's not like this is a general-audience book. If you are a serious player and use any of the Queen-Pawn game variations [in particular the C-Z or the normal Colle] as standard parts of your repertoire, it would be pretty odd not to get the book. I even bought Schiller's and (worse) Soltis' book on the Colle-Zukertort...why? Because it makes sense to spend 30 dollars every 2 years to see new ideas or new explanations of old ones.  That's one of the good things about playing an off-beat opening...you can buy 1 book every 2 years and have a pretty comprehensive library for your opening...I play the Najdorf on Black and wouldn't dream of buying every Najdorf book.

If you don't play a Q-pawn game (...using the term loosely... I mean 1.d4 without c4 soon), then the book is only going to be of interest to you if you are looking for something new against the Benoni, Slav, Caro-Kann, or Tarrasch defenses. (Don't ask why the Caro-Kann gets in there...if you are a strong enough player to know why it looks odd at first blush, you can probably figure out how it gets included.)

If this were, say, a more general book on chess strategy [for which there are scores and scores available], and you were trying to find which one is best, then that would be a different kettle of fish.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #19 - 07/19/08 at 05:46:39
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kylemeister wrote on 07/18/08 at 21:03:53:
Slight correction:  Bighamian isn't a senior master (he's a national master and no doubt a life master), though he was about 16 years ago.

It is interesting that Rudel (as I recall, from an Amazon link posted by Bibs), to support a claim of being Expert (i.e. 2000-2199 USCF) strength, mentioned "various metrics" and a result from a test book (Khmelnitsky's, I believe), but no, you know, rating of any kind.


I'm just going with what is posted here. http://www.lachessclub.com/LACC_Private_Lessons.doc

Like I said earlier...I know Srikanth but not Mick.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #18 - 07/18/08 at 21:03:53
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Slight correction:  Bighamian isn't a senior master (he's a national master and no doubt a life master), though he was about 16 years ago.

It is interesting that Rudel (as I recall, from an Amazon link posted by Bibs), to support a claim of being Expert (i.e. 2000-2199 USCF) strength, mentioned "various metrics" and a result from a test book (Khmelnitsky's, I believe), but no, you know, rating of any kind.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #17 - 07/18/08 at 20:25:58
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kylemeister wrote on 07/18/08 at 18:25:52:
DionTheGreek wrote on 07/18/08 at 15:12:42:
I was not aware of that publication and have no idea who is that new author. Every chess player need to study the classics and respect the history of the game before refer to the latest "bubble" theory.  Unless you are over 2500- latest theory doesn't matter. So, even a book 5, 10, or 50 year old still good if you know how to choose them (I agree about the Soltis Book).

I'll not mind to buy that book for my collection in the future.

Personally I prefer studying games of Yusupov and Polgar and rely theory on the books I recommended before.

Note: That system itself is not 1-all solution for all white problems. Grin


I agree with the thrust of your comments, but you're pushing it a bit far (e.g. with the "unless you're over 2500" bit).


As Silman and others have pointed out, some of those older books really have some missing components...it is not an issue of just not seeing innovation in theory...it's an issue of just not dealing with very important things...or dealing with them well.
[there's also the problem that most of those books were authored by people who do not actually play the opening, and it shows. Silman pointed this out about Lane's book, but the same could be said of Smith&Hall and Schiller's book]

For example, most books give almost no coverage of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Bf4. Smith and Hall is the only one to cover the fast Bb4+ variation, and they give bad analysis (thinking it is bad for Black, but yet GMs still use it with success against white!) [the line I'm referring to here is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 cxd4 6.exd4 Bb4+]

The Polgar DVD has nothing on any of the early bishop deviations [as far as I know]:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5
1.d4 d4 2.Nf3 Bg4
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Bg4
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Bf5
[These lines happen in practice more than the "Main Line," and most books just give very little coverage of them.]

None of the books give a good antidote to the "Sneaky Gruenfeld"
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6!

Smith and Hall [WHICH REPRESENTED A HUGE STEP FORWARD for the Colle] has a tendency to over-laud positions where it is hard to see that White actually has any advantage. Their solution to the KID is particularly dubious.

Secondly, the issue with just looking at Yusupov's games is that his games are going to look a lot different from yours...not just because he is a much stronger player than either one of us, but also because he is playing a different kind of repertoire where he almost always just uses the C-Z as a response to an early ...e6. And then when he does use the C-Z, it is often a transpositional device to a late Queen's Gambit.

Club and tournament players are much more likely to find a far wider variety of positions to deal with...and repertoire players are much more likely to have to deal with whole subtrees that Yusupov would never find himself in due to his repertoire.

Further, even those strong players who play the C-Z against a broader demographic [say Vlatko Kovacevic] will not end up in the same positions at the same frequency as tournament players because their high-level opponents will typically use their own idiosyncratic defenses rather than the "main line" [which is almost never used at high levels except by tranposition...and then by people who stumbled onto it accidentally rather than by players who actually have studied those positions beforehand....therefore you are seeing the moves chosen by strong players seeing the position for the first time]

Palliser's book on the OTHER Colle, does do a good job of addressing some of these concerns...but then again it highlights the "wrong" Colle (The c3-Colle instead of the b3-Colle). I only play the Zukertort, but even I found Palliser's book a good one.

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #16 - 07/18/08 at 20:07:24
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Bibs wrote on 07/18/08 at 08:45:33:
Zukertort wrote on 07/18/08 at 07:06:06:
Actually, my suggestion would be to get "Zuke 'Em," since it is the only book I know of DEDICATED just to the Zukertort...and it is the latest as well. [I'm not counting Soltis' absolutely terrible book on the zukertort years ago.]

Zuke Em spends 256 pages on just the Zukertort and pet defenses to it. Lane is 5 years old and spends about 90 pages on those. A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire is 10 years old [but a very good book!] but uses only about 50 pages on the C-Z and related positions.



The book would be interesting to a number of club players, but some may be concerned that the author is only rated around 1300, thus seemingly weaker than most book-buyers and probably all here. It may be an okay book, but prospective purchasers may be understandably wary of such fare.

Zukertort - if you are familiar with the author, could you perhaps provide reassurance that the author provides more than one might expect from an enthusiastic beginner?



Well, currently 2 National Masters and one Grand Master appear to be happy with the book:
GM Aaron Summerscale himself wrote the foreword (which is a bit of a coup, right...to have a GM who authored a book on this very opening write the forward for a different one? Imagine if Matthew Sadler wrote a foreword for a book on the Slav or QGD.

National Master Michael Steward has commented favorably on it.

Senior National Master Mick Bighamian, who runs the LA chess Club, has worked through the Zukertort sections with one of his students and called the evaluations and analysis "Solid" and "thorough."

{Note, all the above is just what is on the www.zukertort.com website. I do happen to know the student (Srikanth) that is tutored by Mick...and he is downright laudatory of the book, as is another LA Chess Club guy by the name of Franz.}

To be honest though, and this might sound stupid...but my guess is that for the vast number of us clear exposition and the amount of guidance/teaching in a book is probably more important than whether there is a refutation to move 18 that a 2400 player might find.

I don't think the author is a 1300 player....he might have been when he was a teenager starting out in tournaments, but I wouldn't trust a rating that is 12 years old for a teenager based on a half-dozen games.

In any event Thinkers Press' Inc, while having a reputation for culling talent from untitled players, also has a reputation for having decent books. TPI has been publishing chess books for like 30 years.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #15 - 07/18/08 at 18:25:52
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DionTheGreek wrote on 07/18/08 at 15:12:42:
I was not aware of that publication and have no idea who is that new author. Every chess player need to study the classics and respect the history of the game before refer to the latest "bubble" theory.  Unless you are over 2500- latest theory doesn't matter. So, even a book 5, 10, or 50 year old still good if you know how to choose them (I agree about the Soltis Book).

I'll not mind to buy that book for my collection in the future.

Personally I prefer studying games of Yusupov and Polgar and rely theory on the books I recommended before.

Note: That system itself is not 1-all solution for all white problems. Grin


I agree with the thrust of your comments, but you're pushing it a bit far (e.g. with the "unless you're over 2500" bit).
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #14 - 07/18/08 at 15:12:42
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I was not aware of that publication and have no idea who is that new author. Every chess player need to study the classics and respect the history of the game before refer to the latest "bubble" theory.  Unless you are over 2500- latest theory doesn't matter. So, even a book 5, 10, or 50 year old still good if you know how to choose them (I agree about the Soltis Book).

I'll not mind to buy that book for my collection in the future.

Personally I prefer studying games of Yusupov and Polgar and rely theory on the books I recommended before.

Note: That system itself is not 1-all solution for all white problems. Grin
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #13 - 07/18/08 at 08:45:33
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Zukertort wrote on 07/18/08 at 07:06:06:
Actually, my suggestion would be to get "Zuke 'Em," since it is the only book I know of DEDICATED just to the Zukertort...and it is the latest as well. [I'm not counting Soltis' absolutely terrible book on the zukertort years ago.]

Zuke Em spends 256 pages on just the Zukertort and pet defenses to it. Lane is 5 years old and spends about 90 pages on those. A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire is 10 years old [but a very good book!] but uses only about 50 pages on the C-Z and related positions.



The book would be interesting to a number of club players, but some may be concerned that the author is only rated around 1300, thus seemingly weaker than most book-buyers and probably all here. It may be an okay book, but prospective purchasers may be understandably wary of such fare.

Zukertort - if you are familiar with the author, could you perhaps provide reassurance that the author provides more than one might expect from an enthusiastic beginner?

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #12 - 07/18/08 at 07:06:06
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DionTheGreek wrote on 07/17/08 at 18:39:53:
I agree with Zukertort on his suggestion.

If you really interested on that opening, my recommendation is to read about that opening from the following three sources:

1.A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire by Aaron Summerscale
2.The Ultimate Colle by Gary Lane
3. The Colle System by Dimitri Oleinikov (DVD by chessbase)

I don't have the new DVD by Davis on the Colle System and really cannot say anything about it.

My USCF rating is a provisional 1951 since I just start tournament play again after several years of no activity.

That opening will give you a very confortable play, you'll develop your pieces with ease and the middlegame structures are very easy to play.
If black play passive and is not carefull, dangerous attacks from white can end the game in under 15-20 moves.

I believe under 2300 is a great opening for lazy players like me that don't want to study much theory.

Hope that helps.


Actually, my suggestion would be to get "Zuke 'Em," since it is the only book I know of DEDICATED just to the Zukertort...and it is the latest as well. [I'm not counting Soltis' absolutely terrible book on the zukertort years ago.]

Zuke Em spends 256 pages on just the Zukertort and pet defenses to it. Lane is 5 years old and spends about 90 pages on those. A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire is 10 years old [but a very good book!] but uses only about 50 pages on the C-Z and related positions.

  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #11 - 07/17/08 at 18:39:53
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I agree with Zukertort on his suggestion.

If you really interested on that opening, my recommendation is to read about that opening from the following three sources:

1.A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire by Aaron Summerscale
2.The Ultimate Colle by Gary Lane
3. The Colle System by Dimitri Oleinikov (DVD by chessbase)

I don't have the new DVD by Davis on the Colle System and really cannot say anything about it.

My USCF rating is a provisional 1951 since I just start tournament play again after several years of no activity.

That opening will give you a very confortable play, you'll develop your pieces with ease and the middlegame structures are very easy to play.
If black play passive and is not carefull, dangerous attacks from white can end the game in under 15-20 moves.

I believe under 2300 is a great opening for lazy players like me that don't want to study much theory.

Hope that helps.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #10 - 07/17/08 at 17:23:38
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Zukertort wrote on 07/17/08 at 16:06:39:
osprey wrote on 08/26/07 at 12:25:38:
I was keen to try the CZ for the first time but, in a recent rapidplay tournment, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.b3 cxd4 black already had a comfortable position.  

After the game my opponent suggested 4.dxc5 with a kind of reversed QGA.  Are there any games with this continuation as I have not been able to find any?  is there a more Colle style continuation as 4.c3 seems a bit passive?

Osprey


The problem is not with the C-Z...the problem is that 4.b3 is not the proper response to this early c5.

See chapter 10 of "Zuke-Em" or Game 22 of "A killer Chess Opening Repertoire" for answers to this line. [Different books, Different answers]


Thanks I've found the game in "A killer chess Opening Repertoire", guess the reversed QGA is the answer after all  Smiley
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #9 - 07/17/08 at 16:06:39
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osprey wrote on 08/26/07 at 12:25:38:
I was keen to try the CZ for the first time but, in a recent rapidplay tournment, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.b3 cxd4 black already had a comfortable position.  

After the game my opponent suggested 4.dxc5 with a kind of reversed QGA.  Are there any games with this continuation as I have not been able to find any?  is there a more Colle style continuation as 4.c3 seems a bit passive?

Osprey


The problem is not with the C-Z...the problem is that 4.b3 is not the proper response to this early c5.

See chapter 10 of "Zuke-Em" or Game 22 of "A killer Chess Opening Repertoire" for answers to this line. [Different books, Different answers]
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #8 - 09/11/07 at 17:54:48
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Alumbrado,

You are right, but at least it gets us away from all those Blackmar-Diemar variations for a little while!

Lips Sealed
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #7 - 08/28/07 at 20:08:30
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/27/07 at 21:47:03:
Well, here's an idea that doesn't fit with the d-pawn specials but that might score well in blitz.  At least for one tournament.

1.b3 d5 2.f4 followed up by Nf3, e3 Bd3 0-0. One idea is to bring your N to e5 and open the center when you've got a good K-side attack.

I didn't invent it, and of course many of you recognise the idea as a Nimzovich-Larsen.

Still, it has more bite than the Colle/Zukertort systems!


Hmm ... yes, but Black can cut across that rather with 1.b3 e5(!)
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #6 - 08/27/07 at 21:47:03
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Well, here's an idea that doesn't fit with the d-pawn specials but that might score well in blitz.  At least for one tournament.

1.b3 d5 2.f4 followed up by Nf3, e3 Bd3 0-0. One idea is to bring your N to e5 and open the center when you've got a good K-side attack.

I didn't invent it, and of course many of you recognise the idea as a Nimzovich-Larsen.

Still, it has more bite than the Colle/Zukertort systems!
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #5 - 08/27/07 at 10:02:32
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Quote:
Unfortunately, comfortable positions are simply a part of life in the Colle-Zukertort.  If you are dissatisfied with this, you should probably play something more ambitious.  I had a similar problem myself a few years ago.  I came to the conclusion that it is unreasonable to expect an advantage against a strong player in this opening.  If you press too hard in some of these equal positions, you can easily end up worse!

On the flip side, this structure is probably not a bad way to play for a win as Black against weaker opposition in the Classical Queen's Indian Defense.  It's not a bad opening, but don't worry about seeking an advantage.


guess I was hoping too much for a quick win - thanks for your wise words
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #4 - 08/27/07 at 09:55:37
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But I doubt very much if the CZ is the ideal blitz/rapid weapon. It seemsq moer apt for 'slow' play to me.
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #3 - 08/27/07 at 09:43:48
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alumbrado wrote on 08/26/07 at 21:42:28:
The fact that you're starting with 1.Nf3 suggests an idea to me: have you considered meeting 1.Nf3 d5 with 2.b3!? and aiming for a CZ that way?  I haven't thought through all the ramifications but it might be one way to go?


thanks for an interesting idea; there is a club blitz coming up so I'll gve it a try there
  
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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #2 - 08/26/07 at 21:42:28
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The fact that you're starting with 1.Nf3 suggests an idea to me: have you considered meeting 1.Nf3 d5 with 2.b3!? and aiming for a CZ that way?  I haven't thought through all the ramifications but it might be one way to go?
  

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Re: colle zukertort
Reply #1 - 08/26/07 at 20:04:05
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Unfortunately, comfortable positions are simply a part of life in the Colle-Zukertort.  If you are dissatisfied with this, you should probably play something more ambitious.  I had a similar problem myself a few years ago.  I came to the conclusion that it is unreasonable to expect an advantage against a strong player in this opening.  If you press too hard in some of these equal positions, you can easily end up worse!

On the flip side, this structure is probably not a bad way to play for a win as Black against weaker opposition in the Classical Queen's Indian Defense.  It's not a bad opening, but don't worry about seeking an advantage.
  

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colle zukertort
08/26/07 at 12:25:38
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I was keen to try the CZ for the first time but, in a recent rapidplay tournment, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.b3 cxd4 black already had a comfortable position. 

After the game my opponent suggested 4.dxc5 with a kind of reversed QGA.  Are there any games with this continuation as I have not been able to find any?  is there a more Colle style continuation as 4.c3 seems a bit passive?

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