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Poll Question: my refutation of the danish black second move. Q-H4
bars   pie

good    
  0 (0.0%)
dubiuos    
  1 (7.7%)
bad    
  4 (30.8%)
very crafty.    
  0 (0.0%)
great    
  0 (0.0%)
new novelty.    
  0 (0.0%)
very bad    
  5 (38.5%)
why bother    
  3 (23.1%)
good novelty    
  0 (0.0%)
not good    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 13
« Created by: inn3 on: 08/27/07 at 03:27:57 »
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation. (Read 7009 times)
CraigEvans
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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #16 - 09/02/07 at 11:32:00
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Incidentally, toying around in line B, there might also be the stronger sacrifice 14.Bf4!! cxb5 15.Ncxb5 g6 16.Nxd6+! Kf8 17.Rc1! Nc6 18.Nxc6 bxc6 19.Qd4! f6 20.Rxe7! Kxe7 21.Re1+ Kf8 22.Bh6+!! Nxh6 23.Qxf6+ Kg8 24.Re8+ Qxe8 25.Nxe8 Nf5 26.Nc7! Rb8 27.g4 and white's queen should be stronger than the rooks due to his precarious king - it's likely that white will mop up the q-side pawns and then start causing black some trouble with a q-side stampede. There might be improvements for black, but if white has so many ways to sacrifice material for this big an attack, then black's position is bad. And if 5...Bb4 is indeed black's best, then it looks like 2...Qh4 really is busted.
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #15 - 09/02/07 at 11:17:42
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Quote:
MNb wrote on 09/02/07 at 01:19:30:
Within these 5 seconds I just saw, that 6...Ba5 is answered with 7.b4 Bb6 and e1 is free for the rook again. Also there is sometimes x.b4 threatening the bishop. This is exactly as far as I looked.


Another idea is that b4 could potentially undermine a future knight at c6.  Interesting, but an advantage is not clear to me.  Sometimes it can be difficult to prove a refutation for one bad move second move...  BDG anyone?   Lips Sealed


Okay, so we've got 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4? 3.Nf3 Qxe4+ 4.Be2 exd4 5.O-O Bb4!?, certainly an interesting try aiming to prevent nasty Re1 tricks. However, I'm not so sure that this can really hold, the plan just looks too artifical.

My first inclination would be 6.c3!? - white is playing a gambit, therefore having sacrificed one pawn for definite, he shouldn't be afraid of further material sacrifices. I'm assuming that Bb4 would be a seriously rotten move if black isn't going to capture on c3, since if the bishop retreats then Re1 is possible again - I'm not sure the loss of the c3 square makes much difference. So, 6...dxc3 7.Bd3 and now black needs to find a home for his queen.

A) 7...Qc6
Here I like the look of 8.Qb3!?, for example 8...Qd6 9.Ng5! Nh6 10.Re1 Kf8 (Or 10...Kd8 11.Nxc3 and with black's king sitting in the middle of the board, he won't survive the winter) 11.Ne4 Qb6 12.Nbxc3 (Threatening Nd5, so...) Be7 13.Nd5! Qxb3 14.axb3 Nc6 15.Nxc7 Rb8 and now 16.Nf6! might well be a nice shot - white regains his material and black's position still looks pretty wretched to me.

B) 7...Qd5
If 7...Qc6 fails because of 8.Qb3, then it might make sense to cut out that option. However, after 8.a3! it's not at all clear where black's bishop should go (8...Ba5 fails to 9.Re1+ and 10.Re5, if you're wondering). I'm guessing again that closing the e-file with 8...Be7 is logical, but then white gets traditional gambit compensation with 9.Nxc3 Qh5 10.Re1 d6 (10...Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 looks miserable) 11.Be2! Qf5 12.Nd4 Qd7 13.Bb5! c6 and now, whilst I'd imagine that retreating the bishop is theoretically the best move, I don't think I'd be able to resist 14.Nd5!?, for example 14...cxb5 15.Bg5! f6 16.Bxf6!!? Nxf6 17.Rxe7+ Qxe7 18.Nxe7 Kxe7 19.Nxb5 Nc6 20.Qxd6+ Kf7 21.Qc7+ Kg6! 22.Qg3+! Kh6! 23.Nd6! Rf8 24.Qe3+ Kg6 25.Rc1! h5 26.Qd3+ Kh6 27.b4 and, despite the amount of material black has for the queen, it's unclear how he staves off white's attack without material losses. 27...a6 28.a4 a5 (Rybka's suggestion, but even the materialistic computer is firmly in white's camp here) 29.b5 Nb4 30.Qe3+ Kh7 31.Qg5 with Rc7 to follow.

So, I wouldn't even start looking at moves like 6.a3 until I'd been convinced that 6.c3 wasn't good - material for development is at the heart of this and many other gambits; I'm sure it would be the move that Morphy/Spielmann/Tal etc. would choose in this position. The ball is in black's court.  Cheesy

(Postscript - I promised myself I wouldn't waste time analysing nonsense like this any more, but I must admit I've enjoyed it, and it's been a nice analytical exercise. It reminds me of an old Tim McGrew article on chesscafe.com on Spy vs Spy, each side struggling to get the final surprise in with white's 2.d4 being met by the unbelieveable 2...Qh4, only for the move's entire point to be ignored by 3.Nf3!?. Can someone find a new sting in the tail? The game continues...)
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #14 - 09/02/07 at 03:53:41
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You know, after looking at this thread for a while, I start to feel the urge to start a poll about beating a 1000 player.  Something like "1.blacks move h5 in 1.e4 refutation."  My point would be the poll.  and the analysis of 1...h5.

What am I doing?  OK, JEH, you're right!   Sad
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #13 - 09/02/07 at 03:37:27
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MNb wrote on 09/02/07 at 01:19:30:
Within these 5 seconds I just saw, that 6...Ba5 is answered with 7.b4 Bb6 and e1 is free for the rook again. Also there is sometimes x.b4 threatening the bishop. This is exactly as far as I looked.


Another idea is that b4 could potentially undermine a future knight at c6.  Interesting, but an advantage is not clear to me.  Sometimes it can be difficult to prove a refutation for one bad move second move...  BDG anyone?   Lips Sealed
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #12 - 09/02/07 at 01:19:30
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Within these 5 seconds I just saw, that 6...Ba5 is answered with 7.b4 Bb6 and e1 is free for the rook again. Also there is sometimes x.b4 threatening the bishop. This is exactly as far as I looked.
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #11 - 09/01/07 at 21:34:21
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MNb wrote on 09/01/07 at 20:57:39:
1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4?? 3.Nf3! Qxe4 4.Be2 exd4 5.0-0 Bb4 6.a3 and I don't see much difference with Craig's line. Not that I have cared to take more than 5 seconds at this position and not that 3.Bd3 is bad.
If Black wants to try something like this, 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qh4 is an idea.
Btw I have voted "bad" because with very accurate play he may last longer than 20 moves.


5 seconds!  No wonder you're an UberGod!   Shocked

I actually have in mind something like 6...Ba5 followed by ...Ne7, rather than retreating to e7 and following Craig's line.  ...Be7, ...Nf6, and ...Kf8 doesn't seem like an interesting defensive try to me.  Also I think 6.a3 cuts out some important possibilities with Ba3 compared to other gambit continuations.

Then again I am not a "gambiteer worth his salt" as Craig would say, so it takes me a while to be convinced of White's compensation (even after such a stupid move as 2...Qh4!).   Smiley
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #10 - 09/01/07 at 20:57:39
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1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4?? 3.Nf3! Qxe4 4.Be2 exd4 5.0-0 Bb4 6.a3 and I don't see much difference with Craig's line. Not that I have cared to take more than 5 seconds at this position and not that 3.Bd3 is bad.
If Black wants to try something like this, 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 Qh4 is an idea.
Btw I have voted "bad" because with very accurate play he may last longer than 20 moves.
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #9 - 09/01/07 at 08:35:33
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CraigEvans wrote on 09/01/07 at 07:28:13:
Right, much to my chagrin I've actually taken five minutes this morning to look at this. My revised assessment is that "very bad" wasn't harsh enough. My original thought of letting black have e4 if he wants holds:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4?? 3.Nf3! Qxe4 [What else? Not taking this pawn is an admission that black's play has been terrible] 4.Be2 exd4 [4...Nc6 5.dxe5 Nxe5 (5...Bb4+?! 6.c3! Bc5 7.Nbd2 ±) 6.O-O Nf6 7.Re1 Bb4!? 8.c3 (8.Nbd2!?) Be7 9.Nbd2 Qd5 10.Nxe5! Qxe5 11.Bf3 and any gambiteer worth his salt will like white's position] 5.O-O Be7 [I've taken this as the main line because it seems that black must block the e-file. Also, all other moves seem equally bad] 6.Nxd4 Nf6 7.Bf3 Qg6 8.Re1 Kf8 and now 9.Nb5 or 9.Bf4 are ± at the very least - white is almost certain to be able to get his pawn back while keeping his development lead and positional grip; black has a dead rook on h8 and a misplaced queen, and a dormant queenside.

So hopefully we can consign this idea to the scrapheap where it undoubtedly belongs. Sorry inn, nice try, no cigar.  Wink


Nice practical solution, but I think 4.Be2 exd4 5.0-0 Bb4, intending ...Ne7 gives Black greater resistance, when I think there's still some work to show, though maybe not much more.  Smiley

(Edit:  Honestly, the more I look at it, the position after 5...Bb4 doesn't look clear to me at all.  I might even prefer Black!)

Here's my version:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4 3.Bd3 exd4 4.Nf3 Qf6 5.Bg5 Qb6 6.0-0 Qxb2 7.Nbd2 Nc6 8.Nc4! Qb4 9.a4!

intending e5 or Bc1-a3 depending on Black's response.  White has a ready made kingside attack if the queen survives.

Though I have to admit that it took me more than 5 minutes to find the correct sequence for moves 8 and 9.  8.Rb1 was tempting, but the rook is actually better on a1 to support a4 and connects well with Bc1-a3 ideas.  I like the absurdity of the queen moves and the geometry of the pieces here.  Smiley

(What was shocking was the actual counterplay Black can obtain if White makes one inaccuracy.)   Shocked
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #8 - 09/01/07 at 07:28:13
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Right, much to my chagrin I've actually taken five minutes this morning to look at this. My revised assessment is that "very bad" wasn't harsh enough. My original thought of letting black have e4 if he wants holds:

1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4?? 3.Nf3! Qxe4 [What else? Not taking this pawn is an admission that black's play has been terrible] 4.Be2 exd4 [4...Nc6 5.dxe5 Nxe5 (5...Bb4+?! 6.c3! Bc5 7.Nbd2 ±) 6.O-O Nf6 7.Re1 Bb4!? 8.c3 (8.Nbd2!?) Be7 9.Nbd2 Qd5 10.Nxe5! Qxe5 11.Bf3 and any gambiteer worth his salt will like white's position] 5.O-O Be7 [I've taken this as the main line because it seems that black must block the e-file. Also, all other moves seem equally bad] 6.Nxd4 Nf6 7.Bf3 Qg6 8.Re1 Kf8 and now 9.Nb5 or 9.Bf4 are ± at the very least - white is almost certain to be able to get his pawn back while keeping his development lead and positional grip; black has a dead rook on h8 and a misplaced queen, and a dormant queenside.

So hopefully we can consign this idea to the scrapheap where it undoubtedly belongs. Sorry inn, nice try, no cigar.  Wink
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #7 - 08/31/07 at 15:30:42
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I usually enjoy looking at "dodgy" lines, but this one is just ridiculous. I'm blindfold in work (not literally, of course) and could be completely wrong, but 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Qh4? 3.Nf3 Qxe4+ 4.Be2 exd4 (sample suggestion, I'm sure black has other moves) 5.O-O intending Re1 and then either Nxd4 or Qxd4, or even c3 if appropriate - I'd imagine this gives white more than ample compensation in his accelerated development. 3.Bd3 looks fine too, black's queen will not find a good home on the kingside as white develops a tempo.

I was gonna go with "why bother", but in the end took a deep breath and chose "very bad" instead.
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #6 - 08/27/07 at 08:36:01
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I would have voted for "wicked awesome," but it wasn't on the poll.
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #5 - 08/27/07 at 08:21:29
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But Hikaru plays 2.Qh5!  Why can't I?  Waaah!  Angry
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #4 - 08/27/07 at 08:13:11
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I replied "Why bother". Your chess learning energies are best directed elsewhere.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #3 - 08/27/07 at 08:02:45
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Well, actually I think these beginner queen moves can sometimes be fun to analyze (at least as an exercise).  I have been known to play 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Qa5.  I also thought of the move 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5 Qd4!? in a rare line, which I analyzed recently in another thread.  However, I haven't gotten much of a response, so maybe I am the only one interested in these silly moves!
  

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Re: 2.blacks move Q-h4 in the danish refutation.
Reply #2 - 08/27/07 at 07:38:46
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Gambit wrote on 08/27/07 at 05:35:33:
You bring the Queen out way too early. After 1 e4 e5 2 d4 Qh4 3 Nc3  what are you going to do?  Big deal, beating a 1000 player. Try beating a 2200 player with that line, and it may mean something.


True, beating a 1000 rated player doesn't prove anything, but let's indulge him a little. for instance 3. Nc3 gives Black more initiative than they deserve after 3. ...Bb4.

So I'd prefer 3. Bd3, and then kick the black Queen across the table like a billiard ball.

In general, early Queen adventures to grab pawns is one of the classic beginner mistakes.  
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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