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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hubner Variation (Read 37498 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #61 - 04/13/09 at 02:59:51
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Re my comment about the interchangeability of White's moves:

I was being lazy.  I really just meant to point out that the Hubner may arise from either move order, not that they are truly interchangeable.  Thanks for keeping me honest!
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #60 - 04/06/09 at 23:37:28
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Antillian wrote on 04/06/09 at 13:23:56:
LeeRoth wrote on 03/31/09 at 02:14:51:
I always thought that 4.e3 Bxc3 was a way for Black to give White a favorable version of the Samisch.  Smiley


MNb wrote on 03/31/09 at 02:20:43:
So thought I - and if Black can get away with this it is very bad news for White - ie for me.


Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/01/09 at 04:07:42:
The Bc3 and c5 moves are almost interchangeable and both lead to the Hubner Variation.


Are we all talking about the same thing here? Surely 4... Bxc3+ is not the best option for getting to a Hubner since White has not yet committed t Nf3? What am I missing?


Quite right.  Black can get a Hübner, but is relying on White's cooperation.  Instead, I think White does indeed get a favorable Sämisch after 4.e3 Bxc3+, by virtue of not having to play 4.a3...
  
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Antillian
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #59 - 04/06/09 at 13:23:56
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/31/09 at 02:14:51:
I always thought that 4.e3 Bxc3 was a way for Black to give White a favorable version of the Samisch.  Smiley


MNb wrote on 03/31/09 at 02:20:43:
So thought I - and if Black can get away with this it is very bad news for White - ie for me.


Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/01/09 at 04:07:42:
The Bc3 and c5 moves are almost interchangeable and both lead to the Hubner Variation.


Are we all talking about the same thing here? Surely 4... Bxc3+ is not the best option for getting to a Hubner since White has not yet committed t Nf3? What am I missing?
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #58 - 04/02/09 at 11:37:18
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Yeah: I just don't see the threat.  Black replies with 13...Nf6 and can swing the queen out to a5, and White only has awkward solutions to protecting the pawn @ c3.

Re. your game with Fritz, I don't understand 15...Qg5, when 15...fxe3 was on the table, eliminating the threat of the two pawns you've mentioned.  16.Qxe3 Nf4 looks pretty persuasive to me.  Instead, in your game, it's White who gets the knight in the middle of the board and enjoys two more active bishops.  Maybe ...Ra8-b8 is better than b7-b6, too.  Either way, I think Black should be fine.

I'm constrained to think that the following remains the most theoretically challenging kind of idea for Black in the 10.Rb1 Hübner:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.Nd2 e5 9.O-O O-O 10.Rb1 Ne8 11.f4 exd4 12.cxd4 cxd4 13.e4 Nf6

My sense is that Aleksandrov's 10.Re1 is the real test, although there, I also like 10...Ne8...
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #57 - 04/02/09 at 05:19:10
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HgMan, 

When I actually saw it over the board, I preferred 13.Qe1.  I think the threats of pushing either e4 or f4 should be enough for white to claim his hereditary small advantage.

This reminds me somewhat of what Geller said about one of the Sicilian lines as Black:  Black threatens either f5 or e5, and that double threat gives him a playable game.

Where do you think Fritz went really wrong in my blitz game?  It ended up getting squashed, which is rare for me.
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #56 - 04/01/09 at 11:11:56
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/01/09 at 04:07:42:
Going back to my idea of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.O-O Bxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Nd2 e5 10.Rb1 Ne8 11.d5 Ne7 12.f3 (iso 12.Qc2, which may be pointless with a completely closed center, see HgMan's game for a case in point) 12.f3 f5, I disagree with HgMan on one point:

I don't see how Black forces White to play e4.  White can consider playing f4 instead of e4, and Black's best response may be 13...g5.  I have a feeling that would be the real test of 11.f3.  


I don't think I said e3-e4 was forced, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that.  I was only suggesting that if White wants to open the center (and typically in the Hübner, with the bishop bair, White does—even at the expense of a pawn in some lines), then the immediate e3-e4 is preferable.

And I don't get 13.f4; can't Black just play 13...e4 with an even better closed center?  13...g5 only helps White get his bishops moving.  Maybe you didn't mean an immediate f3-f4.

I agree, though, that 12.Qc2 is pretty horrible...
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #55 - 04/01/09 at 04:07:42
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The Bc3 and c5 moves are almost interchangeable and both lead to the Hubner Variation.  It has the reputation of being super-solid, but notice that in most of the examples cited (thanks, btw), White was also a strong GM.  If it were so easy, one would wonder why such strong GMs would bother to play it as White!

Going back to my idea of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.O-O Bxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Nd2 e5 10.Rb1 Ne8 11.d5 Ne7 12.f3 (iso 12.Qc2, which may be pointless with a completely closed center, see HgMan's game for a case in point) 12.f3 f5, I disagree with HgMan on one point:

I don't see how Black forces White to play e4.  White can consider playing f4 instead of e4, and Black's best response may be 13...g5.  I have a feeling that would be the real test of 11.f3.  

One of White's ideas may be to try g4 with the idea of opening up the b1-h7 diagonal.  It's just an idea, but that really is the point of 12.f3, to give white more flexibility in the center than he's used to with e4.

Here's an addendum to the conversation; a blitz game I played against Fritz in which I gained a sizeable advantage:




1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 0-0 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bd3 d6 7.0-0 Bxc3 8.bxc3 e5 9.Rb1 Nc6 10.d5 Ne7 11.Nd2 Ne8 12.f3 f5 13.Qe1 Ng6 14.Qg3 f4 15.Qf2 Qg5 16.Ne4 Qh5 17.a4 b6 18.a5 bxa5 19.Qa2 fxe3 20.Bxe3 Nf4 21.Bxf4 exf4 22.Qxa5

Ok, so Fritz was probably drunk, or under the weather with a virus. But still, my first dry run with 12.f3 against f5 seems promising.  Thoughts?


I forced the first 12 moves on Fritz.  The move order for reaching the position isn't relevant to this particular discussion.
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #54 - 03/31/09 at 02:20:43
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So thought I - and if Black can get away with this it is very bad news for White - ie for me.
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #53 - 03/31/09 at 02:14:51
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I always thought that 4.e3 Bxc3 was a way for Black to give White a favorable version of the Samisch.  Smiley
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #52 - 03/30/09 at 12:28:13
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I'm very interested in the Hübner, but don't feel qualified to comment on the specific lines you are discussing. I just hope this thread stays alive until I've done some study!

I'm building a "simplified" Nimzo-Indian repertoire aiming for thematic consistency for use with students, and thought of using the Hübner as one key position type to aim for. The Hübner structure with Wpc3,c4,d4 against Bpc5,d6,e5 also appears in the line 4.Qc2 0-0 5.e4!? d6 (I believe this is currently Black's best reply here) 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 e5 8.Bd3 c5!

Against 4.e3 apart from the standard Hübner move 4...c5 I see some strong players have tried 4...Bxc3 5.bxc3 c5 followed usually by ...d6 and ...e5 soon. This guarantees a Hübner centre (avoiding 4...c5 5.Nge2) but of course White can avoid putting his knight on f3, usually seen as the justification of 4...c5, 6...Bxc3! Is there any point to this for black, or is it just a way for stronger players to get out of theory and display their greater understanding?

Examples:

[Event "7th ch-Euro"]
[Site "Kusadasi TUR"]
[Date "2006.04.12"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Graf, A."]
[Black "Anastasian, A."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E41"]
[WhiteElo "2604"]
[BlackElo "2602"]
[EventType "swiss"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3 c5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ne2 d6 8.O-O e5 9. e4 O-O 10. f3 cxd4 11. cxd4 Nxd4 12. Nxd4 Qb6 13. Be3 exd4 14. Rb1 Qc6 15. Bxd4 Nd7 16. f4 Nc5 17. Bc2 f5 18. Qh5 Nxe4 19. Rbe1 Qe8 20. Qh4 Bd7 21. Re3 Qd8 22. Qxd8 Raxd8 23. Bxe4 fxe4 24. Rxe4 b6 25. Bb2 Rfe8 26. Rfe1 Rxe4 27. Rxe4 Kf7 28. Kf2 Be6 29. Rd4 Rc8 30. Ke3 g6 31. Rxd6 Rxc4 32. a3 h5 33. Rd3
Rc2 34. Rd2 Rxd2 35. Ke4 1/2-1/2

[Event "36th Olympiad"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2004.10.19"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Gulko, B."]
[Black "Filippov, An"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E40"]
[WhiteElo "2600"]
[BlackElo "2475"]
[EventType "team"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3 c5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ne2 d6 8. e4 e5 9. dxc5 dxc5 10. Ng3 Be6 11. Nf1 Qa5 12. Qc2 O-O-O 13. Ne3 Rxd3 14. Qxd3 Rd8 15. Nd5 Nxe4 16. O-O Nd6 17. Re1 Qa4 18. Ne3 f5 19. Qe2 g6 20. f3 Nxc4 21. Nxc4 Qxc4 22. Bg5 Qxe2 23. Rxe2 Rd6 24. a3 Bc4 25. Rd2 Bd3 26. c4 Na5 27. Rad1 e4 28. fxe4 fxe4 29. Rf1 Nxc4 30. Rf8+ Kc7 31. Rdf2 Rd7 32. R2f6 b6 33. a4 e3 34. Bf4+ Kb7 35. R8f7 Rxf7 36. Rxf7+ Ka6 37. Bb8 Ka5 38. Rxa7+ Kb4 39. Rxh7 e2 40. Re7 Kxa4 41. h4 Na3 42. g4 Nc2 43. Bg3 b5 44. h5 gxh5 45. gxh5 b4 46. Ra7+ Kb3 47. h6 e1=Q+ 48. Bxe1 Nxe1 49. Kf2 Nc2 50. Rd7 Nd4 51. Ke3 Kc3 52. h7 Bxh7 53.Rxh7 b3 54. Ke4 b2 55. Rh3+ Kb4 56. Rh1 Nb5 0-1

[Event "Inautomarket Open"]
[Site "Minsk BLR"]
[Date "2008.07.12"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Rozum, I."]
[Black "Andreikin, D."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E41"]
[WhiteElo "2444"]
[BlackElo "2604"]
[EventType "swiss"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e3 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3 c5 6. Bd3 Nc6 7. Ne2 d6 8.O-O O-O 9. e4 e5 10. d5 Ne7 11. Ng3 Ng6 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Bg5 Nf4 14. Bc2 h6 15.Bxf6 Qxf6 16. Qf3 g6 17. Nxh6+ Kg7 18. Ng4 Qg5 19. Bd1 Rh8 20. g3 f5 21. exf5 gxf5 22. gxf4 exf4 23. Qg2 fxg4 24. f3 g3 25. hxg3 Bh3 0-1
  
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HgMan
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #51 - 03/30/09 at 11:29:19
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Yes: maybe time for both of us to consult a board.  You mean Black pawns on c5, e5, and f5, but Black can close the position, which should suit him/her: White has the bishop pair with nowhere much to go, and has knights that can be nimble on the kingside and a queen eyeing h4 and White's king.  Ideas with Rb1 and a2-a4-a5 can be troublesome for Black, but sure b6, Rb8, etc. can neutralize that.  At the end of the day, though, I don't see the real value of 12.f3; White doesn't need to set up e3-e4, and is probably better countering Black's f7-f5 with the immediate exf5 as in the Lukacs-Stohl, 1994 game you mentioned in your previous post.  But: time for a board...
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #50 - 03/30/09 at 03:58:40
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I too am answering without having looked at the board.   

However, it seems that if White can encourage Black to play c5, d5, and f5, the center won't stay closed for long.

The one caveat is that after white plays e3-e4 (taking on f5 may be a reasonable option) Black has f5-f4 and has traded off his Bad Black Bishop.  White's compensation will have to lie in a q-side attack taking advantage of the semi-open b-file.  This may not be enough.

I'll give a better considered answer after I have had a chance to go through some variations.

~Cheers
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #49 - 03/30/09 at 02:06:42
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I'll need to look at this more carefully (with a board in front of me), but what's wrong with continuing 12...f5?  It seems to me that Black has an extra tempo on the Lukacs-Stohl game you mention (which doesn't seem to put Black under a ton of pressure at any point, mind).  Note that in this version, White has not yet played e3-e4 yet, which means that Black can opt to close the center more convincingly, while gaining some space on the kingside.

For the record, I think the Hübner is very sound and playable, but both 10.Rb1 and 10.Re1 strike me as dangerous for Black...
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #48 - 03/28/09 at 18:05:29
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First a general comment:

The Hubner Variation is the main reason I don't play the Nimzo as Whtie very much anymore and probably the main reason that 4.Qc2 is now more popular than 4.e3.

Now for specifics:

In the games that Hgman quoted with 10.Rb1 Ne8 (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.O-O e5 9.Nd2 O-O 10.Rb1 Ne8 I am concerned that Black has castled kingside too soon.

I wonder about 11.d5 Ne7 12.f3 (instead of 12.Qc2) with ideas similar to Lukacs-Stohl, 1994. 

I am not convinced that 10.Rb1, encouraging Black to play b6, is bad for White.  The basic idea of f3 is as follows:  White definitely is threatening f4, but can probably gain more by not actually playing it.  (This is a Nimzo Indian, after all.) 

What do you think?  Is it worth a try?
  
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Re: Hubner Variation
Reply #47 - 03/24/09 at 05:40:11
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Quote:
I would hazard that Black was fine after 13...f4

For sure - looks like a text book example from Nimzowich himself Wink
  
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