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2 Knights vs Italian (Read 11126 times)

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10569 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #24 - 09/12/07 at 20:39:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	8.Bb5 looks pretty strong: 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nxe5 Qhe 11.Qf3 Sappeur-Münster, Bavaria 1995.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Dji Full Member Offline Just a Spirit in this material World Posts: 169 Joined: 07/16/06	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #23 - 09/12/07 at 18:04:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	You 've right after 18.Qg3! ,White seem to have a decisive advantage But what about 7.Re1 Be6!? ? Not easy to refute!

	Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2087 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #22 - 09/10/07 at 21:15:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dji wrote on 09/10/07 at 17:52:21: Quote: What's wrong with Pinski's 9.Qf3, it looks quite strong and simpler than 9.Nf3 to me. Toppy 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Bc5 7. Re1 O-O 8. Nxe5 Qh4 9.Qf3 Nf6 10.Nxc6 Ng4 11.d4 Qxh2+ 12.Kf1 Bd6 13.Ne7+ Be7 14.Re7 Qh1+15.Ke2 Nf6 16.Kd2 Bg417.Re1 Qh2 18.Qxb7 Rab8 19.Qc6 Rb6 20.Qc5 Qxg2 and despite computer's evaluation Pinski prefer black! Thanks very much Dji, but somehow Pinski's line looks quite unconvincing to me, for instance what does Black do against 18.Qg3 . In any case this whole line seems best avoided by Black. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Dji Full Member Offline Just a Spirit in this material World Posts: 169 Joined: 07/16/06	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #21 - 09/10/07 at 17:52:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: What's wrong with Pinski's 9.Qf3, it looks quite strong and simpler than 9.Nf3 to me. Toppy 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Bc5 7. Re1 O-O 8. Nxe5 Qh4 9.Qf3 Nf6 10.Nxc6 Ng4 11.d4 Qxh2+ 12.Kf1 Bd6 13.Ne7+ Be7 14.Re7 Qh1+15.Ke2 Nf6 16.Kd2 Bg417.Re1 Qh2 18.Qxb7 Rab8 19.Qc6 Rb6 20.Qc5 Qxg2 and despite computer's evaluation Pinski prefer black!

	Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2087 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #20 - 09/10/07 at 14:51:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dji wrote on 09/04/07 at 19:36:07: [Event "cr Latvia"] [Site "?"] [Date "1988.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Skuja, A."] [Black "Troinovs"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C24"] [PlyCount "59"] [EventDate "1988.??.??"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O The kingside developpement is finish the king is safe but blacks needs two moves to castle and have problems with the e pawn . Rybka can say what he want to open the position so early it CAN'T BE GOOD!! Bc5 7. Re1 O-O 8. Nxe5 Qh4 (Here Pinski wrote 9.Qf3 is the only move,it's a big mistake) 9. Nf3! Jonathan Tait's move and look at the date it's know since years! Qxf2+ 10. Kh1 Nf6 11. Re2 Ng4 12. c3 b5 13. Bd5 Bb7 14. Nbd2 Bd6 15. Ne4 Qb6 16. h3 Nf6 17. Nxf6+ gxf6 18. Be3 Qa6 19. a4 b4 20. a5 Ne7 21. Bc4 Qc6 22. a6 Bc8 23. Nd4 Qd7 24. Bh6 Rd8 25. Rxe7 Qxe7 26. Nc6 Qe8 297. Qf3 Be6 28. Qxf6 Bf8 29. Bxf8 Qxf8 30. Ne7+ 1-0 What's wrong with Pinski's 9.Qf3, it looks quite strong and simpler than 9.Nf3 to me. Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2087 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #19 - 09/10/07 at 03:12:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Everyone is quoting Pinski, but isn't Palkovi's earlier text better? Toppy

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #18 - 09/06/07 at 20:51:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	CraigEvans wrote on 09/06/07 at 20:44:54: Willempie, I've actually come across this game in my previous (very limited) look at this, I remember looking at a few possible improvements/alternatives: Instead of 7...Qe7, 7...exd4 8.cxd4 Bg7 9.Nc3 O-O 10.Bb5 Bg4 seems to give black a playable game - in the only examples I can find white plays 11.Bxc6, but black's play down the b-file coupled with the bishop on g7 and ...c5 levers seems to give him an acceptable position. Incidentally, 6..Be7 is an interesting alternative, the two games I've tried with it have transposed to a Ruy Lopez after 7.Re1 O-O 8.Nbd2 Na5! 9.Bb5 a6 10.Ba4 b5 11.Bc2 c5 - I hardly think that the d3 lines in the Chigorin are anything to fear. Also, instead of 10...Bd7, 10...Na5 11.Bf1 c5 is more to my taste - the Bf1 blocks white's typical Nf1-g3 manoeuvre and therefore diminishes his hopes of attacking on the k-side, while black remains solid. I can only find games with 12.dxe5, but 12.d5 might be more pointed. The only other suggestion is 11...Nh5, which seems to score okay from the games I've seen, though I'm not so convinced that black has equality after 12.Ne3 Rae8 13.Nd5 Qd8. Still, interesting stuff, and it fits in in some ways with my new season resolution of playing sensible chess like the Ruy, so I'm gonna stick with it and see how I score - I seem to face 4.d3 surprisingly often, and it would be my main reason for giving up the Two Knights. I cant yet devote much time to this as I am playing real Italians on iccf, but those ideas look good at first sight. Furthermore I suspect no many Whiteys will find this plan. Pushing d3 and d4 in quick succession is not something an Italian player does quickly. As an aside as a "white" Italian guy I am always suspicious for g6 lines due to the f7-pawn being pinned. This is more feeling then theory though.

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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CraigEvans God Member Offline If I can't sacrifice a pawn, I'll throw my rook in Posts: 588 Location: Bryn, South Wales Joined: 07/14/03 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #17 - 09/06/07 at 20:44:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie, I've actually come across this game in my previous (very limited) look at this, I remember looking at a few possible improvements/alternatives: Instead of 7...Qe7, 7...exd4 8.cxd4 Bg7 9.Nc3 O-O 10.Bb5 Bg4 seems to give black a playable game - in the only examples I can find white plays 11.Bxc6, but black's play down the b-file coupled with the bishop on g7 and ...c5 levers seems to give him an acceptable position. Incidentally, 6..Be7 is an interesting alternative, the two games I've tried with it have transposed to a Ruy Lopez after 7.Re1 O-O 8.Nbd2 Na5! 9.Bb5 a6 10.Ba4 b5 11.Bc2 c5 - I hardly think that the d3 lines in the Chigorin are anything to fear. Also, instead of 10...Bd7, 10...Na5 11.Bf1 c5 is more to my taste - the Bf1 blocks white's typical Nf1-g3 manoeuvre and therefore diminishes his hopes of attacking on the k-side, while black remains solid. I can only find games with 12.dxe5, but 12.d5 might be more pointed. The only other suggestion is 11...Nh5, which seems to score okay from the games I've seen, though I'm not so convinced that black has equality after 12.Ne3 Rae8 13.Nd5 Qd8. Still, interesting stuff, and it fits in in some ways with my new season resolution of playing sensible chess like the Ruy, so I'm gonna stick with it and see how I score - I seem to face 4.d3 surprisingly often, and it would be my main reason for giving up the Two Knights.

	"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me. "If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #16 - 09/06/07 at 15:58:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	My own preference is 4...Be7. Having played 4 .... h6 for several years, I must admit that if white knows what he's doing, he may count on lasting pressure. For more info on 4...Be7 you might look at this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1180090619


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OstapBender God Member Offline There is no spoon. Posts: 1491 Location: not in Kansas anymore Joined: 10/16/04	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #15 - 09/06/07 at 14:44:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Another representative 4...h6 game is Nunn,J - Christiansen,L [C55] Phillips&Drew, 1982 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nf3 h6 5.0–0 d6 6.c3 g6 7.d4 Qe7 8.Nbd2 Bg7 9.Re1 0–0 10.h3 Bd7 11.Nf1 Rae8 12.Ng3 Kh8 13.a4 Nh7 14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 dxe5 16.b3 Rd8 17.Ba3 c5 18.Qd5 b6 19.Qb7 Qf6 20.Rad1 Bxh3 21.Rxd8 Rxd8 22.Qxf7 Bg4 23.Qxf6 Nxf6 24.Nf1 Bc8 25.Bc1 Bb7 26.f3 Bf8 27.Ne3 Kg7 28.Kf2 Be7 29.Rh1 h5 30.Ke2 Bc8 31.Bd2 Bb7 32.Be1 Ne8 33.Bg3 Bf6 34.a5 Nd6 35.axb6 axb6 36.Ra1 Bc6 37.Bd5 Be8 38.Ra7+ Kh6 39.Kd3 g5 40.Kc2 Bg6 41.Rc7 g4 42.Rc6 b5 43.Kb2 c4 44.f4 b4 45.fxe5 bxc3+ 46.Kxc3 cxb3 47.Bf4+ Kh7 48.exf6 Nxe4+ 49.Kxb3 Rd7 50.Kc4 g3 51.Bxe4 Bxe4 52.Re6 Bg6 53.Re7+ 1–0 annotated in Nunn's Secrets of Grandmaster Play. I've adopted the 4...h6 line myself (kind of a "road less travelled" philosophy which runs through various parts of my opening repertoire). Although I'm comfortable with it, I agree with Willempie that with best play (i.e., with 0-0, c3, and d4 etc.) White gets lasting pressure.

	"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates." -Jay Leno
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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #14 - 09/06/07 at 09:20:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Craig Keep tabs on this line in that case. It is I think a line in which black can "hold" (he isnt in any direct danger, but imo slightly worse), but white has lasting pressure. The game itself is a good demonstration of this. [Event "Moscow Aeroflot op-A"] [Date "2006.02.08"] [White "Bologan,Viktor"] [Black "Tomashevsky,Evgeny"] [Result "1-0"] 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 h6 5.0-0 d6 6.c3 g6 7.d4 Qe7 8.Re1 Bg7 9.Nbd2 0-0 10.h3 Bd7 11.Nf1 Rae8 12.Ng3 Qd8 13.Bb3 a6 14.Bc2 Nh7 15.Be3 h5 16.Qd2 Qf6 17.Kh2 Bc8 18.Rad1 Kh8 19.Ne2 Qe7 20.Ng5 Nxg5 21.Bxg5 f6 22.Be3 f5 23.Bg5 Bf6 24.Bxf6+ Rxf6 25.f4 Qg7 26.fxe5 dxe5 27.exf5 Bxf5 28.Bxf5 Rxf5 29.Ng3 Rff8 30.d5 Nd8 31.Ne4 Rf4 32.Qe3 Ref8 33.Nc5 e4 34.Nxe4 Qe5 35.g3 R4f7 36.Kg2 Kg7 37.Qd2 c6 38.c4 cxd5 39.cxd5 h4 40.gxh4 Qh5 41.Qc3+ Kg8 42.Qg3 Rf4 43.Rd2 1-0

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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CraigEvans God Member Offline If I can't sacrifice a pawn, I'll throw my rook in Posts: 588 Location: Bryn, South Wales Joined: 07/14/03 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #13 - 09/06/07 at 08:36:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	One move I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned is 4...h6 - Pinski gives a game in his book (albeit not really one typical of the move), black can either connect it with an attempt at a k-side fianchetto, or with an early ...g5 pawn thrust, perhaps in connection with Nc6-e7-g6-f4. Having tried both 4...Be7 and 4...d5 with little success, this is the move I'm turning to to keep my faith in the Two Knights. If it fails, then I may well be playing the Philidor in future...

	"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me. "If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10569 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #12 - 09/06/07 at 01:04:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	That will have to wait, as I am busy with the same event as Markovich. All I can say now, is that Black with 4...d5 plays a gambit similar to the Marshall Gambit of the Ruy Lopez, but with a tempo down. That is why I propose 4...Be7 and only playing ...d5 after White has played c3, Bb3 or maybe Nbd2.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Dji Full Member Offline Just a Spirit in this material World Posts: 169 Joined: 07/16/06	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #11 - 09/05/07 at 15:57:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes because it's a very active move so if white don't find all the best moves it can became very good! Mnb can you tell us a little more about this sideline busted?

	Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: 2 Knights vs Italian Reply #10 - 09/05/07 at 11:07:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dji wrote on 09/04/07 at 19:36:07: [Event "cr Latvia"] [Site "?"] [Date "1988.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Skuja, A."] [Black "Troinovs"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "C24"] [PlyCount "59"] [EventDate "1988.??.??"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O The kingside developpement is finish the king is safe but blacks needs two moves to castle and have problems with the e pawn . Rybka can say what he want to open the position so early it CAN'T BE GOOD!! Bc5 7. Re1 O-O 8. Nxe5 Qh4 (Here Pinski wrote 9.Qf3 is the only move,it's a big mistake) 9. Nf3! Jonathan Tait's move and look at the date it's know since years! Qxf2+ 10. Kh1 Nf6 11. Re2 Ng4 12. c3 b5 13. Bd5 Bb7 14. Nbd2 Bd6 15. Ne4 Qb6 16. h3 Nf6 17. Nxf6+ gxf6 18. Be3 Qa6 19. a4 b4 20. a5 Ne7 21. Bc4 Qc6 22. a6 Bc8 23. Nd4 Qd7 24. Bh6 Rd8 25. Rxe7 Qxe7 26. Nc6 Qe8 27. Qf3 Be6 28. Qxf6 Bf8 29. Bxf8 Qxf8 30. Ne7+ 1-0 Yes, there was a theoretical article in a very eary NIC yearbook, back when they were still doing theoretical articles, upholding Black's chances in this line. I am not sure, but it might have been Harding's authorship. But if you looked at it either very carefully or with silicon assistance, you could see that something was missed. The ...Qxf2+ idea turns out to be unsound. That's a pity, because it's a cute line and it would cut 4. d3 off at the knees. There are other ways of playing 4...d5 that lead to some compensation for Black, but it's widely considered to be not quite enough. Still, I think in a given OTB context, you could occasionally trot out 4...d5 with effect.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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