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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2 Knights vs Italian (Read 14325 times)
Dji
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #9 - 09/04/07 at 19:36:07
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[Event "cr Latvia"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Skuja, A."]
[Black "Troinovs"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C24"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "1988.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O The kingside developpement is finish the king is safe but blacks needs two moves to castle and have problems with the e pawn . Rybka can say what he want to open the position so early it CAN'T BE GOOD!! Bc5 7. Re1 O-O 8.
Nxe5 Qh4 (Here Pinski wrote 9.Qf3 is the only move,it's a big mistake) 9. Nf3!  Jonathan Tait's move and look at the date it's know since years! Qxf2+ 10. Kh1 Nf6 11. Re2 Ng4 12. c3 b5 13. Bd5 Bb7 14. Nbd2
Bd6 15. Ne4 Qb6 16. h3 Nf6 17. Nxf6+ gxf6 18. Be3 Qa6 19. a4 b4 20. a5 Ne7 21.
Bc4 Qc6 22. a6 Bc8 23. Nd4 Qd7 24. Bh6 Rd8 25. Rxe7 Qxe7 26. Nc6 Qe8 27. Qf3
Be6 28. Qxf6 Bf8 29. Bxf8 Qxf8 30. Ne7+ 1-0

  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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Markovich
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #8 - 09/04/07 at 12:54:34
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/04/07 at 11:37:52:
MNb said: Quote:
Quote from Dji on Yesterday at 22:03:35:

I have a little problem with the line 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bb3 d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bc2 c5 9.Re1 a spanish C90 in fact! Nc6 10.Nbd2 Re8 (maybe 10...Qc7 (Emms play the open game) is better) 11.a3!? rare
but very interesting.    Opignon?.
6...d5 is satisfactory; that is why 6.Re1 is correct. Play still can transpose to the Spanish/Ruy Lopez after 6...d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bb5 a6 9.Ba4.
The plan to prepare ...f5 is more ambitious.


After 6.Bb3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.h3, White seems to score well (but that doesn't necessary mean that White is objectively better, indeed)

What is funny about 4..d5 is that Rybka evaluates this position something near +0.16 even a pawn up, strange for a computer. Enough compensations or not? That is the question.


Recently I preferred 3...Bc5 because I didn't want to have to worry about justifying the pawn after 3...Nf6 4. Ng5 (though I believe Black has his pawn's worth) and if 3...Nf6 then 4. d3 Bc5 is a Guioco anyway.

I would not be very happy to allow a transposition to the Closed Spanish, which some people here seem to think is a virtue of 3...Nf6  4. d3 Be7.  There must be a better way of playing 4...Be7 than that.  Not everyone who plays 1...e5 wants to play the Closed Spanish.
  

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ArKheiN
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #7 - 09/04/07 at 11:37:52
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MNb said: Quote:
Quote from Dji on Yesterday at 22:03:35:

I have a little problem with the line 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bb3 d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bc2 c5 9.Re1 a spanish C90 in fact! Nc6 10.Nbd2 Re8 (maybe 10...Qc7 (Emms play the open game) is better) 11.a3!? rare
but very interesting.    Opignon?.
6...d5 is satisfactory; that is why 6.Re1 is correct. Play still can transpose to the Spanish/Ruy Lopez after 6...d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bb5 a6 9.Ba4.
The plan to prepare ...f5 is more ambitious.


After 6.Bb3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.h3, White seems to score well (but that doesn't necessary mean that White is objectively better, indeed)

What is funny about 4..d5 is that Rybka evaluates this position something near +0.16 even a pawn up, strange for a computer. Enough compensations or not? That is the question.
  
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #6 - 09/04/07 at 11:25:02
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I think most tkd players play it because it gives them the initiative, while with 3..Bc5 the focus is on equalising. Therefore they usually are not happy with 4.d3 as then they are back in the "Italian mode". Particularly since d5-ideas usually dont work and white can in most cases revert to the dullest variations. Personally I feel 4..Bc5 is best, while going for Bg7 is also good. 4..Be7 and assorted stuff are either not that good or you can be forced into a very dull position (usually with Nc3).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Dji
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #5 - 09/04/07 at 11:03:17
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[Dji wrote on 09/03/07 at 21:03:35:
3.-Nf6 of course 4.Ng5 is critical but one can play 4.-Bc5 and now we enter in a magic world!!


Even Bücker thinks White can prove an advantage ... (see chesscafe).
[/quote]

Magic is a question of faith so i can't argue it's wrong Smiley
  

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MNb
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #4 - 09/03/07 at 22:15:49
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Dji wrote on 09/03/07 at 21:03:35:
Pinski 've said 4...d5 was correct ,in practice maybe but theoretically speaking it' s the bigest mistake of his book.

Pinski has recommended x.Ke2 in a sideline of 4.d4 exd4 5.e5, which loses by force. That is even a bigger mistake.

Dji wrote on 09/03/07 at 21:03:35:
I have a little problem with the line 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bb3 d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bc2 c5 9.Re1 a spanish C90 in fact! Nc6 10.Nbd2 Re8 (maybe 10...Qc7 (Emms play the open game) is better) 11.a3!? rare
but very interesting.    Opignon?.

6...d5 is satisfactory; that is why 6.Re1 is correct. Play still can transpose to the Spanish/Ruy Lopez after 6...d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bb5 a6 9.Ba4.
The plan to prepare ...f5 is more ambitious.

Dji wrote on 09/03/07 at 21:03:35:
3.-Nf6 of course 4.Ng5 is critical but one can play 4.-Bc5 and now we enter in a magic world!!

Even Bücker thinks White can prove an advantage ... (see chesscafe).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Dji
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #3 - 09/03/07 at 21:03:35
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Pinski 've said 4...d5 was correct ,in practice maybe but theoretically speaking it' s the bigest mistake of his book.

The italian is solid but you feel you're the second player so i prefer the more risky but exciting two knigths def.
I have a little problem with the line 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Bb3 d6 7.c3 Na5 8.Bc2 c5 9.Re1 a spanish C90 in fact! Nc6 10.Nbd2 Re8 (maybe 10...Qc7 (Emms play the open game) is better) 11.a3!? rare
but very interesting.    Opignon?

3.-Nf6 of course 4.Ng5 is critical but one can play 4.-Bc5 and now we enter in a magic world!!
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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MNb
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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #2 - 09/03/07 at 20:58:22
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Marshall's 4...d5 is highly dubious; 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.0-0 and 7.Re1 simply threatens to win a pawn. After 7...Qd6 8.h3 Bh5 9.Bb5 White maintains a nice advantage.
Compared to the Ruy Lopez Marshall White has an extra tempo, as he has not played x.c3 yet.

Black can try to improve this idea with 4...Be7 5.0-0 (5.c3 d5) 0-0 6.Re1 (6.c3 d5; 6.Bb3 d5; maybe also 6.Nbd2 d5) d6 (maybe 6...Re8 idea 7.c3 d5) 7.c3 (7.a4 Kh8 8.c3 Ng8 9.d4 f5 10.dxe5 fxe4 11.Rxe4 Rxf3! Maslak-Radulski, Olomouc 2005 and Zambrana-Matamaros, Dos Hermanas 2006) 7.c3 Kh8 8.Nbd2 (8.h3 Ng8 9.d4 f5; 8.d4 Bg4 is probably White's best) Ng4 (Ng8 9.d4 f5? does not work now) 9.h3 Nh6 10.d4 Ramesh-Roktim, INDch-44 Atul 2006 and here I suggest f5.

Quite nice is 4...Bc5 5.0-0?! d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4? g5 8.Bg3 h5 9.Nxg5 h4 10.Nxf7 hxg3 11.Nxd8 Bg4 12.Qd2 Nd4 13.Nc3 (13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Kh1 Rxh3+!!) Nf3+ 0-1, Knorre-Tsjigorin 1900.
Another argument might be, that 3...Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 is more interesting than 3...Nf6 4.d3 Be7 5.Nc3 d6.

An advantage of 3...Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 a6 is avoiding 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.b4. There are a few lines, where Black plays in aggressive style with ...Ng4 and ...f5. They only work if White plays an early Re1.

The main reason to prefer 3...Bc5 is of course fear of 4.Ng5. You will get arguments like "the onus is on Black to prove compensation." I always play 3...Nf6, so you can imagine how I rate such thinking.
  

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Re: 2 Knights vs Italian
Reply #1 - 09/03/07 at 17:56:37
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I have begun playing 4...d5.   This move seems more "in the spirit" of the two knights with direct counter attack and a highly tactical game.
  
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ArKheiN
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2 Knights vs Italian
09/02/07 at 23:14:17
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Hello everyone, I want to open a (new?) debate, open for everyone who like the theory and/or who plays theses systems as Black.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3, do you prefer to play 4..Bc5 transposing into a classical Italian, or do you prefer to keep an independant play, maybe more in the spirit of the 2 Knights, like 4..Be7?

What do you think is the funniest, or the most easy to play to equalize or playing for a win?

My toughts about it: (I am mostly a Sicilian player but I'm getting interested again by 1..e5):

Firstly I think that both moves are good and should give an equal game to Black.

4..Be7 might be more coherent with Black's repertoire than 4..Bc5 because if the black side wanted to put the bishop there, why didn't he put it on move 3?

An answer could be:

- Black don't like to play 3..Bc5 because of the gambit Evans 4.b4, or because of 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4, or something else but would prefer to play 3..Bc5 only against a slower setup with d3.

Another response could be:

"I play the 2 knights because it is less symetrical and it is sharper than 3..Bc5 but I can't play very sharply against 4.d3, and the bishop looks more active and natural than on e7, so I prefer to play 4..Bc5 which transpose into the classical Italian"
(here too I would like to know why you generally prefer 3..Nf6 to 3..Bc5)

There might be other possible answers, but now I will try to imagine why the black side prefer 4..Be7:

"I don't like when it looks too symetrical" or "I stay with my independant play" or "I want to play a system close to the black side of the Ruy Lopez", and yes, 4..Be7 which seems less natural and active here might be more secure there, it's a square that he likes in the Ruy Lopez, and an idea could be to play d5 soon.
The type of play is like a slow Ruy Lopez, and there can be real transpositions with the Ruy Lopez where White played d3.

So, is it easier and funnier to play in the Italian territory or in the pseudo Ruy Lopez territory? It is surely a question of taste but I eant to know your reasons, experiences and toughts about this subject Smiley

PS: Some of you might prefer to play 4..h6 or 4..d5, are they good? Do you play that? Why?

  
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