Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian? (Read 5568 times)
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #13 - 09/08/07 at 15:39:23
Post Tools
Quote:
It's a worthy idea, though the devil's in the details.  For instance, I've had two opponents who played 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. d4 cd 5. Nf3 e6 6. cd b6 7. Nc3 Bb7 8. Bd3 Na6? 9. Nxd5 and Black stands badly.  And if Black plays say 8...Be7 and continues to eschew ...Nxc3, White can try to benefit from the use of e4 (with Ne4 or Qe2-e4).    


OK but i want to add that after 7.Nc3 Nc3 8.bc3 Qc7 9.Bd2 d6  unclear
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #12 - 09/08/07 at 15:28:46
Post Tools
everalexfor wrote on 09/07/07 at 21:13:42:
Hey guys quick question.  After the knight goes to d5 is there any merit to bashing out a quick b6 and trying to hold it there by fianchettoing the bishop?  Looking at that knight its on such a beautiful center square and it cant be attacked by pawns it seems like such a shame to move it.  Any thoughts?


Whitout a doubt there is merit .It's one of the main weapon against Alapin nowadays.

[Event "Bratto op 22nd"]
[Site "Bratto"]
[Date "2002.08.27"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Guido, Flavio"]
[Black "Belotti, Bruno"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B22"]
[WhiteElo "2327"]
[BlackElo "2430"]
[Annotator "Dji"]
[PlyCount "126"]
[EventDate "2002.08.20"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2002.11.25"]

1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nf3 e6 6. cxd4 b6 7. Bd3( Rozentalis/Harley:This is a natural move and may offer White more chances than the 'main line' 7.Nc3 )...Bb4+ 8. Bd2
Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Ba6 10. Be4! (R/H) Nc6 11. Bxd5 exd5 12. Nc3 Rc8!( with compensation ,Dji    ...R/H give 13...Nb4 with a white advantage at the end)13. Nxd5 d6 14.
Nb4 Nxb4 15. Qxb4 O-O White 's king have a little problem!  16. Qa3 Bb5 17. Qxd6 Rc2 18. Qxd8 Rxd8 19. a4 Ba6 20.
a5 Bb5 21. axb6 axb6 22. b3 Re2+ 23. Kd1 Rxf2 24. Re1 Rxg2 25. Rc1 h6 26. Re3
Bd7 27. Rc2 Bh3 28. Kc1 Rg4 29. Rc6 Rf4 30. Rxb6 Bg4 31. Nd2 Rdxd4 32. Rd6 Rb4
33. Kc2 Be6 34. Kc3 Rb5 35. Nc4 Rh4 36. Rd2 g5 37. Ree2 Rxb3+ 38. Kxb3 Bxc4+
39. Kc3 Bxe2 40. Rxe2 Kf8 41. e6 fxe6 42. Rxe6 Rxh2 43. Kd3 Kg7 44. Ke3 Rh4 45.
Kf3 Rf4+ 46. Kg3 Rf6 47. Re5 Kg6 48. Ra5 Rb6 49. Ra3 h5 50. Rc3 h4+ 51. Kh3 Kh5
52. Rc5 Rb3+ 53. Kh2 Re3 54. Rc4 Re2+ 55. Kg1 h3 56. Ra4 g4 57. Ra3 Kg5 58. Rb3
Kf4 59. Ra3 g3 60. Ra4+ Kf3 61. Ra3+ Re3 62. Ra1 h2+ 63. Kh1 Kg4 0-1
A clear refutation by Belloti



  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4666
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #11 - 09/08/07 at 00:08:51
Post Tools
everalexfor wrote on 09/07/07 at 21:13:42:
Hey guys quick question.  After the knight goes to d5 is there any merit to bashing out a quick b6 and trying to hold it there by fianchettoing the bishop?  Looking at that knight its on such a beautiful center square and it cant be attacked by pawns it seems like such a shame to move it.  Any thoughts?


It's a worthy idea, though the devil's in the details.  For instance, I've had two opponents who played 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. d4 cd 5. Nf3 e6 6. cd b6 7. Nc3 Bb7 8. Bd3 Na6? 9. Nxd5 and Black stands badly.  And if Black plays say 8...Be7 and continues to eschew ...Nxc3, White can try to benefit from the use of e4 (with Ne4 or Qe2-e4).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
everalexfor
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 70
Joined: 03/25/07
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #10 - 09/07/07 at 21:13:42
Post Tools
Hey guys quick question.  After the knight goes to d5 is there any merit to bashing out a quick b6 and trying to hold it there by fianchettoing the bishop?  Looking at that knight its on such a beautiful center square and it cant be attacked by pawns it seems like such a shame to move it.  Any thoughts?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #9 - 09/06/07 at 16:43:06
Post Tools
Hi Lou,

You've right In the Nf6 variation,the set up   without an early d4 is very popular .
The main reason is white  seem to have no advantage after 1e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.d4 cd4 5.cd4 (or Nf3 Nc6 6.Bc4 Nb6 7.Bb3 d6 ) d6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Bc4 Nb6 8.Bb5 = (8.Bb3 is not convincing imo)
The second reason is that Tiviakov is too strong!
and the third recommended in Rozentalis/Harley's book

I admit that an early g6 is an interesting idea and even a practical good idea. With d6 first it seem playable but my first impression is with precise move white is little better.
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didnīt understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #8 - 09/06/07 at 08:21:06
Post Tools
Dji wrote on 09/05/07 at 18:30:34:
Well Lou it's not completely clear because with your's Alapin move-order white have not play d4 and with the Morra of course yes
Moreover after 1e4 c5 2.d4 cd4 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 6.cd4(6.Nf3 is another move order and each one have these proper subtleties ) Nc6 (g6 7.Qb3!?) 7. Nf3 g6 8.Qb3!? e6 The swiss cheese pawn's strctur!


Hi Dji,
of course my suggestion didnīt cover all possible move orders and subtleties, as it is a different approach to the line adressed in this thread.

Against a delayed d4 in the Alapin after 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 g6 I donīt see anything better for white than the normal 7.d4 cxd. Btw it is black who can attack first with 6....c4!? 7.Bc2 Qc7 8.Qe2 g5!?. This line is very popular up to super-GM-level, see Tiviakov - Timman 2006.

At move 8 white can choose between 8.cxd Bb7 with a normal fianchetto position or 8.Ng5 (threatening f7) d5 9.dxe e.p. e6 10.Qf3 Ne4 with a complex and tactical position, where I donīt think that blackīs chances are worse.

This leaves your line at the Morra, move 5 is missing but I guess you meant 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.cxd Nc6 6.Nf3 (or 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.cxd) and here I donīt like g6 as well but play the main line with 6...d6 first, which to my knowledge isnīt considered to be dangerous for black.

Lou

  

If you try, you may lose. If you donīt try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #7 - 09/05/07 at 18:30:34
Post Tools
Well Lou it's not completely clear because with your's Alapin move-order white have not play d4 and with the Morra of course yes
Moreover after 1e4 c5 2.d4 cd4 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 6.cd4(6.Nf3 is another move order and each one have these proper subtleties ) Nc6 (g6 7.Qb3!?) 7. Nf3 g6 8.Qb3!? e6 The swiss cheese pawn's strctur!
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didnīt understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #6 - 09/05/07 at 14:11:52
Post Tools
everalexfor wrote on 09/05/07 at 08:42:09:
As a quick remedy I can recommend a setup with an early kingside fianchetto against Morra and Alapin:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 g6!?.

Question for Lou:  In your line given involving 2..Nf6 this seems good for Alapin but how does it help against the Morra? 1.e4 c5 2.d4   ?


Hi,
thatīs a simple one:
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd 3.c3 Nf6 and as e4 is attacked white doesnīt have anything better than transposing to the Alapin with 4.e5 Nd5 etc...
I know that theory thinks that there are better options for black against the Morra but as I face the Alapin quite often and donīt have too much time so far it helped to transpose into familar waters.

Lou
  

If you try, you may lose. If you donīt try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
everalexfor
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 70
Joined: 03/25/07
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #5 - 09/05/07 at 08:42:09
Post Tools
Lou_Cyber wrote on 09/05/07 at 07:23:53:
everalexfor wrote on 09/04/07 at 05:21:34:
Hi guys I have the same response for the c3 Sicilian and the Smith-Morra Gambit.  1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4    or    1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d6 4.cxd4.   Next, since I'm a dragon player in the open sicilians, I usually move some knights but always end up playing ..g6 at some point, trying to fianchetto and castle.


Hi everalexfor,

I donīt know enough about your line but the opinion of members as Andrew Brett or MNb is usually valuable. Therefore your line might not be the best idea.

As a quick remedy I can recommend a setup with an early kingside fianchetto against Morra and Alapin:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 g6!?.

The structures are not too boring, and some of the white standard plans donīt work against the fianchetto. The play is usually double-edged, which should be to your liking as a dragon player.

Lou


Hey thanks for the imput guys.  Yes I am a dragon player and much prefer the lines involving ..g6.

Question for Lou:  In your line given involving 2..Nf6 this seems good for Alapin but how does it help against the Morra? 1.e4 c5 2.d4   ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didnīt understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #4 - 09/05/07 at 07:23:53
Post Tools
everalexfor wrote on 09/04/07 at 05:21:34:
Hi guys I have the same response for the c3 Sicilian and the Smith-Morra Gambit.  1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4    or    1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d6 4.cxd4.   Next, since I'm a dragon player in the open sicilians, I usually move some knights but always end up playing ..g6 at some point, trying to fianchetto and castle.


Hi everalexfor,

I donīt know enough about your line but the opinion of members as Andrew Brett or MNb is usually valuable. Therefore your line might not be the best idea.

As a quick remedy I can recommend a setup with an early kingside fianchetto against Morra and Alapin:
1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6 3.e5 Nd5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 g6!?.

The structures are not too boring, and some of the white standard plans donīt work against the fianchetto. The play is usually double-edged, which should be to your liking as a dragon player.

Lou
  

If you try, you may lose. If you donīt try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10546
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #3 - 09/04/07 at 21:47:31
Post Tools
1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Bd3 (4.f3, the gambit idea is 4.dxc5 Nc6) cxd4 is not as solid as 2...d5 or 2...Nf6, but it is also more ambitious.
Then the question arises if White can improve on this after 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4 or 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d6 4.cxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6. If White plays 6.f3 or 6.Bd3 Bg7 or 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Be2 play just transposes. The only way to take benefit is playing the bishop to c4, as Schwarz already pointed out in his 1980 book on the Morra Gambit. So we get 6.Nf3 (White has not done particularly well with 6.f4 Bg7 7.Nf3, but 12 games is not quite a lot) Bg7 7.Bc4 0-0
a) 8.0-0?! Nxe4 9.Bxf7+ Rxf7 10.Nxe4 h6 11.Be3 Bg4 =+Tegzes-Honos, HUN 1994.
b) 8.Qe2 Nc6 9.h3 Nd7 (e5!?) 10.Be3 a6 11.a4 b6 12.0-0 Bb7 13.Rfd1 Nb4 =Novak-Belaska, Prague 1995.
c) So I propose 8.Bb3 Nc6 9.h3 idea e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.0-0 and 12.Be3 and White looks better to me.
As this road to an advantage is rather narrow, it might be worth taking a close look.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #2 - 09/04/07 at 07:29:20
Post Tools
everalexfor wrote on 09/04/07 at 05:21:34:
Hi guys I have the same response for the c3 Sicilian and the Smith-Morra Gambit.  1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4    or    1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d6 4.cxd4.   Next, since I'm a dragon player in the open sicilians, I usually move some knights but always end up playing ..g6 at some point, trying to fianchetto and castle.

Is this a good strategy or is it weak?  (playing ..d6 and ..g6)  I've never actually looked uo this line in any books its just kinda been my preference.  Any advice on this line or maybe advice on how to improve?

I think in general it is a good idea (eg against the closed or GrandPrix, but play Nc6 before d6 in that case), just not so good against the c3-sicilian as you may really need that d6 tempo to play d5 in one go.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ANDREW BRETT
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 622
Joined: 07/07/06
Re: Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
Reply #1 - 09/04/07 at 07:21:14
Post Tools
I think it's weak ! But it's not a disaster- Have a look at Adams v Gelfand Candidates for a good example of how to exploit the white space advantage. It's pretty similar to a Pirc but it's only advantage in my opinion is that it does the c3 sicilan guys out of their regular lines. That said, I doubt if they will be unhappy to face this .
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
everalexfor
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 70
Joined: 03/25/07
Is this a good reply for the c3 sicilian?
09/04/07 at 05:21:34
Post Tools
Hi guys I have the same response for the c3 Sicilian and the Smith-Morra Gambit.  1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4    or    1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d6 4.cxd4.   Next, since I'm a dragon player in the open sicilians, I usually move some knights but always end up playing ..g6 at some point, trying to fianchetto and castle.

Is this a good strategy or is it weak?  (playing ..d6 and ..g6)  I've never actually looked uo this line in any books its just kinda been my preference.  Any advice on this line or maybe advice on how to improve?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo