Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black?! (Read 6257 times)
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #11 - 10/09/07 at 07:04:54
Post Tools
Regarding the position: I have to agree with that the position looks bleak from Black's perspective after the 'silicon line' Paris gave a while back, 17.Qe3 b5 18.Nd5 e5 19.Ne7+ Kf8 20.Nxc8 exd4 21.Qxd4 Rxc8 22.Qxd6+ Kg8 23.e5

Nothing looks very good for Black who doesn't really have time to waste since his kingside is even more damaged than usual.  Perhaps TN has some surprise and is waiting to see if anyone can crack his secret analysis.

The only move besides 17...b5 that seems like a possibility is 17...Rc6.  The idea is to avoid blocking the Black queen's access to d5 (so as to discourage Nd5 by White) while still making constructive moves (preparing the rooks for action and supporting ...e5).  I haven't had a chance to look at this very carefully, so it's possible that White can just blast Black off the board, but I'd like to see what the refutation is, and besides, it is time to get this thread back on track.

Note: the post by TopNotch does not concern the general merits of the dragon, the promise of 10.0-0-0, or even the general state of 10.0-0-0 Nd4; it concerns a particular line, and I think that it would be best to restrict our discussion in this thread to the position arising after 9. O-O-O Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5 Qa5 14. hxg6 fxg6 15. a3 Rab8 16. Bd3 Bf7 and save all other discussion for another thread.  I apologize if my remarks earlier were unclear, or whether they were deemed offensive and requiring retort.  I simply like to see the thread subjects accurately depict the discussion; it makes it easier to comment on particular lines which are 'known to be bad' and prevent otherwise interesting positions and games from being lost by being interjected into unrelated threads.  Comments on the general state of the dragon simply encourage other similar comments which then kill the thread.  I don't want to belabor the point; if anyone would like to discuss this further, please start a thread in the Chit Chat section or send me a message privately.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #10 - 10/08/07 at 10:52:32
Post Tools
i agree with you i think 9.000 d5! is the best for Black, here we tried to make work 9.000 Nxd4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #9 - 10/07/07 at 19:44:20
Post Tools
I am not convinced that 9 0-0-0 d5 simply wins for white.
Today I was black and crushed a 1900 player in a 90 min for 35 moves + 30 min extra after that in a local competition.
He and a 2100+ player claimed that white was better almost the entirey game but I disagreed fo course and Rybka has proved that I was right.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4
Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. Nxc6 bxc6 11.
exd5 Nxd5 12. Nxd5 cxd5 13. Bh6 Bxh6 14. Qxh6 Qa5 15. a3 e5 16. Qd2 Qxd2+ 17.
Rxd2 Be6 18. Bb5 Rfc8 19. Re1 f6 20. f4 e4 21. Ba4 Rab8 22. Kb1 f5 23. Bb3 Rc5
24. Red1 Rcb5 25. Rd4 a5 26. Kc1 Kf7 27. Kd2 Ke7 28. Ke3 Rxb3+ 29. cxb3 Rxb3+
30. Ke2 Rxb2+ 31. R1d2 Rb3 32. Ra4 Rb5 33. Rc2 Kd6 34. Kd2 Bd7 35. Rc3 Bc6 36.
Kc1 Rb1+ (36... Rc5 {wins the rook after} 37. Rxc5 Kxc5 38. Rxa5+ Kb6) 37. Kxb1
Bxa4 38. Kc1 Bc6 39. Rh3 d4 40. Rxh7 e3 41. Rh8 d3 0-1

I played 3 dragon games in that tournament and won two och lost one.
The competiotion was both long games and blitz games and the game I lost what a blitz game where I thought little to long before I sacrificed a rook and a Knight to get a pawn to a3 in the Chinese variation so I had to move fast after that and missed that I had a forced mate in 5 after pawn to a3 and lost.

And about Najdorf I heared rumours that poisened pawn is refuted...
« Last Edit: 10/08/07 at 07:39:31 by bragesjo »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10716
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #8 - 10/05/07 at 20:26:33
Post Tools
thibdb13 wrote on 10/05/07 at 06:49:47:
I cannot see what is really annoying with this variation. Black should perhaps have another approach: no Bc4 - no short castling and wait till white's plan becomes clearer to decide what to do with his King (meanwhile black can develop on the Q-side)


We have gone over this one as well. White plays Be2, g4 and h4 in some order and it is Black who will have to show his cards first. There are other threads for this.
While I agree with ParisestMagique, Scholar is also right that we don't have to repeat that in every single thread. I just wait and see; my interest will be excited if someone shows something good after 9.0-0-0. Until then I prefer the Accelerated Dragon (we have gone over this one too).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #7 - 10/05/07 at 07:31:13
Post Tools
Mister Scholar, the problem with some Dragon players is that they are not at all objectiv with their beloved opening, we discuss concrete variations like of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 fxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bf7 17.Qe3
If you want to be constructiv, gives variations, we are here to search news path (here for black) what is your idea to have a good game after 9.000 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #6 - 10/05/07 at 06:49:47
Post Tools
I cannot see what is really annoying with this variation. Black should perhaps have another approach: no Bc4 - no short castling and wait till white's plan becomes clearer to decide what to do with his King (meanwhile black can develop on the Q-side)
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #5 - 10/05/07 at 02:59:50
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 10/04/07 at 08:51:17:
9.000 is really annoying ... so i think to return to my first love The Najdorf.


Bah.  Too many of your posts in this forum amount to making this statement which, frankly, does not contribute much.  It is enough already.

TopNotch -- Your post deserves a better reply than I can give at the moment.  I have some brief analysis on this line from a couple of years ago when the variation blew up for Black, and I was not impressed then with Black's play or chances of long-term survival after fxg6.  If I get a chance, I'll try and look over those lines with some fresh eyes.
« Last Edit: 10/05/07 at 04:30:51 by Scholar »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #4 - 10/04/07 at 08:51:17
Post Tools
9.000 is really annoying ... so i think to return to my first love The Najdorf.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #3 - 10/03/07 at 15:17:04
Post Tools
Has anyone else looked at any of this stuff yet.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #2 - 09/14/07 at 15:10:00
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 09/14/07 at 08:23:02:
Hi, some month ago, i dismissed this try because of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 fxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bf7 17.Bxf6 BxB 18.Nd5 QxQ 19.Nxf6+ exf6 20.RxQ but ok in this case White "advantage" is very slight. (maybe a strong endgame player have a different opinion). A more dangerous try is your 17.Qe3 with the silicon line b5 18.Cd5 e5 19.Ce7+ Kf8 20.NxR exBd4 21.Qxd4 Rxc8 22.Qxd6+ Kg8 23.e5 and Black has a difficult task ahead, and maybe 17.Qf2 is even better ... so the ball is again in Black their court.


You are right, the ending is not that exciting for Black but perhaps tenable, although after 19.Nxf6 the pawn sac 19...Kf7 needs to be investigated properly. I also remember looking at 17.Qf2 and thinking that Black maybe ok after 17...b5 18.Nd5 Nxd5 Bxg7 b4.

This is all mute however due to the strength of 17.Qe3.

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black
Reply #1 - 09/14/07 at 08:23:02
Post Tools
Hi, some month ago, i dismissed this try because of 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.O-O-O Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 fxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bf7 17.Bxf6 BxB 18.Nd5 QxQ 19.Nxf6+ exf6 20.RxQ but ok in this case White "advantage" is very slight. (maybe a strong endgame player have a different opinion). A more dangerous try is your 17.Qe3 with the silicon line b5 18.Cd5 e5 19.Ce7+ Kf8 20.NxR exBd4 21.Qxd4 Rxc8 22.Qxd6+ Kg8 23.e5 and Black has a difficult task ahead, and maybe 17.Qf2 is even better ... so the ball is again in Black their court.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Dragon Wars: 9.0-0-0 Yet another try for black?!
09/13/07 at 20:30:35
Post Tools
This one has been on my mind for quite some time now, after seeing a previous update by the inimitable Chris 'emergency' Ward hinting that the following idea 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. f3 Bg7 7. Be3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O Nxd4 10. Bxd4 Be6 11. Kb1 Qc7 12. h4 Rfc8 13. h5 Qa5 14. hxg6 fxg6 15. a3 Rab8 16. Bd3 Bf7! could possibly rehabiliate this particular line for Black. Suprisingly since that update there has been no word on this line, which has somehow mysteriously slipped under the radar of the legions of usually hyper alert Dragoneers out there.


BLACK TO PLAY


Regrettably though it must be confessed that I cannot share in Chris's initial enthusiasm for the 16...Bf7 idea, because according to my analysis after 17.Qe3! above Black is simply busted.

So what say you all, is 17.Qe3! the last word or am I missing something.

Let the analysis begin.

Toppy Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo