ChessPub Forum - 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo

Bonsai

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Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo
Reply #11 - 02/11/08 at 22:48:12

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I still have not really figured out what to think of the whole ...d6 move-order issue and had no new conclusions to share, but I have now come across another idea that black has. It is in part an answer to what else black could do instead of transposing back into standard lines, which as pointed out often happens:
LeeRoth wrote on 12/10/07 at 23:04:12:

I have to say that I find 6..d6 a bit puzzling. In my database most of the games just transpose back into 6..b6 lines.

However an extra option that black has involves c7-c5. I am currently preparing for a team match, in which I might (but probably won't) face GM Ikonnikov. I noticed that he plays a lot of d6+c5 ideas in the Nimzo.

For a start he has played the following position at least twic (and against the same opponent:

Struik,T (2185) - Ikonnikov,V (2558) [E32]
Open NK Dieren NED (1), 24.07.2007

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 c5 7.dxc5 dxc5 8.Bg5 Nc6 9.f3 e5 10.e3 Be6 11.Bd3 Qa5 12.Rc1 0-0-0 13.Ke2 Qc7 14.Qc2 h6 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Kf2 Rd6 17.Ne2 Rhd8 18.Rcd1 Qd7 19.Nc1 f5 20.Be2 Qe7 21.Nb3 Rxd1 22.Rxd1 Rxd1 23.Qxd1 Bxc4 24.g3 Bxe2 25.Qxe2 b6 26.Qb5 Kc7 27.Nd2 Qd7 28.Ke1 Qd5 29.Qa4 Qd3 0-1

Struik,T (2206) - Ikonnikov,V (2560) [E32]
Open Dutch Championship Dieren NED (1), 26.07.2005

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 c5 7.dxc5 dxc5 8.Bg5 Nc6 9.e3 Qa5 10.Qxa5 Nxa5 11.Bd3 b6 12.Nf3 Bb7 13.Ke2 Nd7 14.Rhd1 f6 15.Bh4 0-0-0 16.Rac1 Bxf3+ 17.Kxf3 Ne5+ 18.Ke2 Nxd3 19.Rxd3 Rxd3 20.Kxd3 Rd8+ 21.Kc3 a6 22.g4 Nc6 23.Bg3 Kb7 24.Rc2 Na5 25.h4 e5 26.b4 cxb4+ 27.axb4 Nc6 28.g5 e4 29.Kb3 fxg5 30.hxg5 Rd3+ 31.Ka4 Nd8 32.Be5 Ne6 33.g6 h5 34.Rc1 h4 35.Rh1 Kc6 36.b5+ axb5+ 37.cxb5+ Kd5 38.Bd4 Nxd4 39.exd4 Rxd4+ 40.Kb3 Rd3+ 0-1

But he actually also seems to like these moves in a lot of other variations:

Sasikiran,K (2666) - Ikonnikov,V (2543) [E32]
HZ Open Vlissingen NED (8), 13.08.2004

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 d6 7.f3 c5 8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Nh3 Nc6 10.Nf2 e5 11.e3 e4 12.Bd2 Qe7 13.Be2 Ne5 14.f4 Neg4 15.h3 Nxf2 16.Kxf2 b6 17.Rhd1 Rd8 18.Be1 Bb7 19.Qe5 Kf8 20.Kg1 Ne8 21.Qh5 Nf6 22.Qf5 Rxd1 23.Rxd1 Rd8 24.Rxd8+ Qxd8 25.b4 Bc8 26.Qe5 Qe7 27.bxc5 bxc5 28.Qb8 Qb7 29.Qd6+ Qe7 30.Qc6 Bb7 31.Qb5 Qc7 32.Ba5 Qc6 33.Qb2 Nd7 34.Bg4 f6 35.Bf5 h6 36.Qd2 Ke7 37.Qd1 Nb6 38.Bxb6 axb6 39.Qg4 Kf8 40.Qg6 Ba6 41.Bxe4 ½-½

Kalinitschew,S (2517) - Ikonnikov,V (2543) [E32]
Open Dutch Champ Dieren NED (8), 04.08.2004

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.Bd2 c5 6.dxc5 dxc5 7.a3 Ba5 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.e3 b6 10.0-0-0 Qe7 11.Bd3 Bb7 12.Ne4 ½-½

Petri,T - Ikonnikov,V (2540) [E32]
Wiesbaden op Wiesbaden (1), 1997

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.Bd2 c5 6.e3 0-0 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.Nge2 cxd4 9.exd4 e5 10.d5 Ne7 11.0-0 a5 12.a3 Bc5 13.Bg5 Kh8 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Ng3 Rg8 16.Nce4 Ng6 17.Nh5 Nh4 18.Nhg3 Bd4 19.Nc3 f5 20.Bxf5 Rxg3 21.hxg3 Nxf5 22.Ne4 Nh6 23.Rab1 Ng4 24.Nc3 Qg5 25.Qd2 0-1

Ikonnikov,V (2556) - Delgado,N (2557) [E32]
Capablanca Mem Elite Havana CUB (5), 11.05.2004

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 dxc5 7.a3 Bxc3+ 8.Qxc3 Nc6 9.Bg5 Qa5 10.Qxa5 Nxa5 11.Nd2 b6 12.e3 Nc6 13.Be2 Bb7 14.f3 h6 15.Bh4 Ke7 16.0-0-0 Rhd8 17.Kc2 Ne5 18.Bg3 Ng6 19.Nb1 Nh5 20.Bf2 f5 21.Nc3 Nf6 22.Nb5 Bc6 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 24.Bg3 Bxb5 25.cxb5 Ke7 26.Rd1 Nd5 27.Bf2 Ne5 28.b3 g5 29.Bc4 Rd8 30.Re1 Nf6 31.Bg3 ½-½

In this last example it is a very obvious move (while in the previous cases, it is less "classical").

Strathmann,S - Ikonnikov,V (2559) [E32]
Roemer op 2nd Rommelshausen (2), 29.06.2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.e4 d6 6.e5 Nfd7 7.Nf3 c5 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 cxd4 10.exd6 dxc3 11.Bd3 Nf6 12.Bg5 h6 13.h4 Qxd6 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Rd1 Qxa3 16.Qe2 Qa5 17.Bc2 Rd8 18.Rh3 Nc6 19.Rg3+ Kf8 20.Rxd8+ Qxd8 21.Qe3 Bd7 22.Nd4 Be8 23.Qxh6+ Ke7 24.Nxc6+ Bxc6 25.Qc1 Qd2+ 26.Qxd2 cxd2+ 27.Kxd2 0-1

What I noticed though is that he usually seems to refrain from it, if he is faced with Bg5. So maybe to avoid these extra lines one ought to play 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 d6 5.Bg5 and only later a2-a3? However I admit it would be nice to be sure why he seems to think that once Bg5 has been played the idea is not so viable any more.

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #10 - 12/26/07 at 04:00:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I must say I don't understand the 13th-17th moves. Simple guy as I am I would have played 13.Rac1. I also must say that I find 33.Rxd6 more wonderful than 33.Qxa5. I guess time trouble was the cause. Maybe Black should play 10...Nc6 ?

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #9 - 12/26/07 at 01:24:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	recently watched this wonderfully-controlled game which proves that the g3 setup is not without poison (the two bishops always count!): S. Matveeva - N. Kosintseva, Moscow Russian Superfinals (Women) 2007 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 O-O 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. Qxc3 d6 7. Nf3 b6 8. g3 Bb7 9. Bg2 c5 10. O-O Qe7 11. b4 Nbd7 12. Bb2 Rac8 13. Rfc1 Rfe8 14. dxc5 bxc5 15. Qb3 Be4 16. Bf1 d5 17. Nd2 d4 18. Nxe4 Nxe4 19. Bg2 Nd6 20. e3 dxe3 21. fxe3 Nf6 22. bxc5 Rxc5 23. Bd4 Rcc8 24. c5 Nde4 25. c6 e5 26. Bb2 Nd6 27. a4 e4 28. Bh3 Rb8 29. Qc3 Qc7 30. Rc2 Red8 31. Rd1 a5 32. Rcd2 Rb6 33. Qxa5 Qxc6 34. Bxf6 gxf6 35. Qd5 Kf8 36. a5 Qxd5 37. Rxd5 Rc6 38. Bg2 Ke7 39. Bxe4 Ra6 40. Bd3 Rc6 41. Bxh7 Ra8 42. Bd3 Ke6 43. Bf1 f5 44. Bh3 Rh8 45. Bg2 Ra6 46. Rxd6+ Rxd6 47. Rxd6+ Kxd6 48. a6 Rc8 49. a7 Rc1+ 50. Kf2 Rc2+ 51. Kf1 Rc1+ 52. Ke2 Rc2+ 53. Kd3 Rxg2 54. a8=Q Rxh2 55. Qe8 1-0


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #8 - 12/11/07 at 09:23:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	Just had a quick look through Gurevich-Emms, seems good for white (i refer to Golod's analysis in Megabase, my copy of fluffy's 4. Qc2 book is supposed to arrive together with his new semi-slav, if that book ever sees the light of day). Black really needs his dark squared bishop in this pawn structure, as you have already posted, white always had some tactics against the d6 pawn. Recently was interested in the line 6...b6 7. Nf3 Bb7 8. e3 d6 9. Be2 Nbd7 with b2-b4/Bb2 (after being inspired by Van Wely's wonderful CBM video commentary of his recent game with Timman), it has the merit of making all these move order questions moot ( i think?!)


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #7 - 12/11/07 at 05:34:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, I agree. And thanks for that response. It seems to me that if White plays energetically he can keep an edge in these ..d6 lines. If he messes around, Black can develop play down the b-file or rush his a-pawn to a4, fixing the queenside (which is annoying for White). So, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3 6.Qxc3 d6 (6..b6 7.Bg5 d6 8.f3 Nbd7 is another move order, although I suppose here Black can try 8..c5 instead.) 7.Bg5 Nbd7 8.f3 b6 9.e4 c5 10.Nh3 (This seems best to me. From what I can gather, White usually waits for ..Ba6 before taking on c5. And 10.Bd3 blocks the d-file.) 10..h6 (If 10..Ba6 11.dxc5 bxc5 12.Rd1 +/= V.Golod) 11.Be3 (Must be right; Ljubojevic took on f6 vs Kramnik in a similar position. But looks funny to me to give up the 2 Bs.) 11...Ba6 (11..Qc7 12.d5 exd5 13.cxd5 has also been played, but it is a Benoni structure where Black doesn't have a dark-squared bishop. Must be at least +/=, but I confess I haven't looked at it much.) 12.dxc5! Here, John Emms played 12..Nxc5 13.Rd1 Qe7 14.b4 Ncd7 15.c5 Bxf1 16.cxd6 Qd8 17.Rxf1 vs M.Gurevich, who rates this position +/-. Golod suggests 13..Ne8, but how good can that be? If 12..bxc5 13.Rd1 Qb6 (13..Qc7 14.Qd2 Ne8 +/= V.Golod) 14.b4 Golod says +/= with the idea of 14..axb4 15.axb4 Qc7 16.Qd4, but 14..Qc7 seems messier when the position is difficult to evaluate and White has to be careful about ..d5.) Anyway, seems to me that this line may be a possible downside to an early ..d6, but maybe there are other ways for Black to play. I am just learning this system and have not yet found my footing. All I can say is thank you fluffy for the book because without it I would be totally and completely lost in these lines.


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #6 - 12/10/07 at 23:34:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	LeeRoth wrote on 12/10/07 at 23:04:12: 8.f3 isn't played all that much and Black seems to do pretty well when it is. From looking at a few games, Black generally plays ..c5 and meets dxc5 with ..bxc5 when he gets play down the b-file. Maybe White's control of the d-file counts for more? Again, I'm not sure, but perhaps M.Gurevich-J.Emms, North Sea Cup, 2000 is the way for White to go? hello, this pawn structure dxc5/bxc5 is extremely solid. Some white players even try to spice things up by castling long, but may not be necessary. perhaps White has some edge in practice in this 4. Qc2 nimzo version of this pawn structure, because without dark-squared bishop, harder for black to defend d6 (compare some lines in the QID e.g. 4. g3 Ba6 5. Qa4 Bb7 6. Bg2 c5 7. dc5 bc5). I've seen a few games where Black feels compelled to play ...d5 eventually, but that opens the game for White's bishops and White should then have a slight pull.


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LeeRoth God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 1520 Joined: 10/22/05	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #5 - 12/10/07 at 23:04:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	lnn2 wrote on 12/10/07 at 09:01:12: 6... d6 7.f3 or 7. Bg5 and then 8. f3 is definitely the right idea., normally Black wants to counter f3 with d7-d5 but then d6-d5 loses a tempo now. I suppose 7. g3 is also good to exploit Black's move-order, and it looks like it has the endorsement of many strong players. But I'm not sure i want to put another pawn on the dark square when I have a dark squared bishop. I have to say that I find 6..d6 a bit puzzling. In my database most of the games just transpose back into 6..b6 lines. But can White take advantage of this move order? I'm not sure. What Inn2 says makes perfect sense, yet 8.e3 is by far the most popular move. 8.f3 isn't played all that much and Black seems to do pretty well when it is. From looking at a few games, Black generally plays ..c5 and meets dxc5 with ..bxc5 when he gets play down the b-file. Maybe White's control of the d-file counts for more? Again, I'm not sure, but perhaps M.Gurevich-J.Emms, North Sea Cup, 2000 is the way for White to go?


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lnn2 God Member Offline Posts: 1504 Location: nc Joined: 09/22/04	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #4 - 12/10/07 at 09:01:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	6... d6 7.f3 or 7. Bg5 and then 8. f3 is definitely the right idea., normally Black wants to counter f3 with d7-d5 but then d6-d5 loses a tempo now. I suppose 7. g3 is also good to exploit Black's move-order, and it looks like it has the endorsement of many strong players. But I'm not sure i want to put another pawn on the dark square when I have a dark squared bishop.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #3 - 12/10/07 at 00:57:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here is an answer of a strong corr player: http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/secrets_of_Qc2_nimzo.html

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #2 - 09/23/07 at 17:43:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Willempie, I agree with you that Black probably doesn't have quite enough counterplay. But I would sure hate to face it in a game without having prepared for it. Black's counterplay is very natural while White still needs to figure out where his pieces belong. I would bet that Black gets at least equality the first time he plays it against an equal opponent and is winning against weaker opposition. The second time he plays it though, will probably be severely punished. I wonder what advantage 6....d6 has over 6...b6 if White continues 7.f3.


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Willempie God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 4312 Location: Holland Joined: 01/07/05	Re: 6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo Reply #1 - 09/23/07 at 13:05:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	7.g3 features in the july update. I am not sure I agree with Emms that the gambit is sound 7. g3 e5 (the most critical move I think) 8. dxe5 dxe5 9. Qxe5 Re8 10. Qc3 Ne4 11. Qc2 Nc6 Here I think black has initiative, but am not sure if it is enough after 12.e3 or 12.Be3

	If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Bonsai God Member Offline Posts: 622 Joined: 03/13/04 Gender:	6...d6 move order in the Qc2 Nimzo 09/18/07 at 06:39:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi all, I've been pondering the following move order for black: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 d6 http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=rnbqxrkx%2Fpppxxppp%2Fxxx... On the one hand black can usually revert to 6...b6 lines, but has some additional options. In particular I get the feeling that this might be a reasonable attempt to avoid the endgame variation (6...b6 7.Bg5 Bb7 8.f3 h6 9.Bh4 d5 10.e3 Nbd7 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Bxd8 Nxc3), because after the sort of obvious moves 7.Bg5 Nbd7 white actually needs to commit a bit. Either one plays 8.e3, but in that case the above endgame variation will only come about after some cooperation by black (on f3 black should probably just play b6+Bb7 without worrying too much, since white it not doing much in the centre). Another white still has (after 8.e3) is the Bareev variation (8.e3 b6 9.Ne2 Bb7 10.Qd3 with the plan Nc3 etc., unless maybe 9...Ba6 is an interesting extra option for black here?), in case he wants to play the same thign against 6...b6 and 6...d6. Not sure whether black deviations like 8.e3 Re8 9.Bd3 e5 look too impressive here, e.g. 10.Ne2 Nf8 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Rd1 Qe7 13.0-0 Bd7 14.Ng3 looks a little bit better for white to me. The alternatives on move 8 for white, for example 8.Nh3 look a bit weird, if black tries some simple e6-e5 plan, don't they? Or is that sort of plan still questionable due to the pin of the f6 knight? What are your thoughts? Is 6...d6 a good move order for black or are there some special downsides?


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