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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C42: Cochrane Gambit (Read 26906 times)
chk
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #23 - 08/21/12 at 12:31:41
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I prefer 6. Bc4+ and think the resulting position is equal, but has life in it..
  

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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #22 - 08/12/12 at 05:48:05
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On OTB games the gambit is fully acceptable, the better prepared wins. Playing the gambit on the Net is another story, the most trouble line to meet as white is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nxf7 Kxf7 5.d4 c5 6.dxc5 d5 , when my best result as white is draw. Against this linw I cannot find anything good to mess the things and create complications.
  
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #21 - 08/11/12 at 04:41:43
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Kramnik's response was to transpose into the main line of the modern variation. Topalov's 5.Nc3 was merely a transposition of moves.

So, if we use that game as a model for 5.Nc3, perhaps the best that can be said for it is that it transposes into the main lines that are probably slightly inferior to white anyway.
  
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #20 - 08/11/12 at 00:53:15
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That definition of "refuted" is pretty contentious- I remember the authors of Danish Dynamite claiming that the Danish Gambit is not refuted, despite acknowledging that Black has various ways to equalise, and a few ways to try for more if White meets 3...dxc3 with 4.Bc4 rather than 4.Nxc3.

I suppose whether a line is "refuted", if it is not clearly worse for White, depends on one's level of play.  I remember agreeing with Watson that Black seemed to be at least equal, objectively speaking, against Topalov's 5.Nc3 with best play, though I may re-check that if I get time.
  
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #19 - 08/10/12 at 22:46:54
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MNb wrote on 08/10/12 at 20:44:06:
So 5.Nc3, as played by Topalov against Kramnik in Linares 1999, might be somewhat more precise.


This is what Watson had to say, as mentioned in a previous link in this thread:

Quote:
[T]here are a few points to make about that game:

(a) Topalov played this after a loss as White to Kasparov, in which the latter's superior theoretical preparation (extending past move 20 in a main line) must have depressed Topalov. So a crazy experimental response may have been just the therapy he needed in the next round;

(b) More importantly, after 4...Kxf7, Topalov played not 5.d4 (the only move considered in most sources), nor even 5.Bc4, Cochrane's original idea (discredited by 5...d5!), but 5.Nc3!?, a move probably designed to avoid the known drawbacks of the other two moves. Now Kramnik responded with 5...c5 6.Bc4+ Be6 7.Bxe6+ Kxe6 8.d4 Kf7 9.dxc5 Nc6, a completely safe method which appears to me to be at least equal. We'll have to see what the players' notes say.

The only theoretical comment I can find on 5.Nc3 gives it a '?!' and suggests 5...Qe8! 6.Bc4+ Be6, when Black is clearly better (Osnos and Kalinchenko in NIC Yearbook 19). I'm sure that Topalov would have played 6.d4! instead, with the idea 6...Nxe4? 7.Qh5+ g6 8.Qd5+. However, Black can play 5...Qe8 6.d4 d5 7.e5 Bb4, transposing to a normal Cochrane (if there is any such thing), and the move 5...Qe7!? also deserves strong consideration, intending 6.d4 c5.>

(emphasizes and paragraph breaks added by SF.)


Using Watson's definition of refuted from the same article,

Quote:
[I]f White loses any potential advantage and can at best claim equality after only 7 or 8 moves of a gambit opening, then the gambit is often referred to as 'refuted'.



Topalov's 5.Nc3 is probably refuted.

When I was casting about, I think I ran across a recent correspondence game where Black reached a very comfortable position very quickly. I didn't save it, but I can find it again.
  
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MNb
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #18 - 08/10/12 at 20:44:06
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So 5.Nc3, as played by Topalov against Kramnik in Linares 1999, might be somewhat more precise.
  

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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #17 - 08/10/12 at 10:42:03
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There is at least one other serious alternative to 6. .. Nc6.



Nothing for 5 minute games, but in correspondence chess white has to find something.
  

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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #16 - 08/10/12 at 10:17:41
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/10/12 at 08:55:03:
....
So, is the Cochrane still dead?

Here's part of the correspondence game that made me question whether 5...c5 is enough for Black to gain at least equality. ...

Yes, I think it is!  Wink
But in fact, nobody knows..  Grin
Anyway, 5...c5 is still the best way to bust the Cochrane. And I do prefer this setup for black, but with 6...d5!:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nxf7 Kxf7 5. d4 c5! 6. dxc5 d5! (my marks)
Let's see my notes about it - compiled from various resources - although I admit I never really worked seriously on this:



I hope it will help your researches..  Wink
  
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Re: C42: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #15 - 08/10/12 at 08:55:03
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Hi,

I'm revisiting the Cochrane Gambit. I have absolutely no interest in playing it, but I'm trying to find what the latest theoretical and practical opinions on it are.

I've read Watson's comments where he considers it refuted. I've taken a look at Short-Shirov, 2007, a rapid game where Shirov played the "modern" 5...c5 and won as Black.

But I've also seen this correspondence game that was played in 2008. Black lost because of terrible exchange sacrifice that just didn't work, but even before then it seemed that White had compensation for the sac.

So, is the Cochrane still dead?

Here's part of the correspondence game that made me question whether 5...c5 is enough for Black to gain at least equality.

I am not sure, but I think the standard move for Black after 10.Qe2 is 10...Qd7. But I don't know what the theoretical evaluation of that line is.

  
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MNb
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #14 - 09/28/07 at 23:45:15
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That bust is not entirely clear, see Hoogendoorn-Van den Bersselaar, Dieren 2000.
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #13 - 09/28/07 at 21:32:29
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Kylemeister.
You're right. Bronstein mentions the gambit in his book 200 Open Games, he even gives it an '!'.
Reindermann busted the Cochrane with 5.d4 Qe8. I don't remember which Yearbook, though.
  
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #12 - 09/26/07 at 21:28:58
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I remember David Bronstein being quoted as saying that 4. Nxf7 is just as good as 4. Nf3 (maybe he wrote it in that "Open Games" book?).  But it seems that he always played 4. Nf3 himself, though (when he wasn't playing 3. d4 or 3. Nc3).
  
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MNb
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #11 - 09/26/07 at 21:10:28
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See Short-Sjirov, Dubai 2002. The site

http://www.schach.gmxhome.de/boofreng.htm

recommends the Cochrane Gambit, but does not give an improvement for White in this game. Topalov played 5.Nc3 though. After 5...Qe8 6.d4 he would have avoided 5.d4 c5. Watson's suggestion 5.Nc3 Qe7 6.d4 c5 has never been tried.
Let me say, that theory thinks it dubious. I certainly would not play it in a corr game.
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #10 - 09/26/07 at 20:24:19
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Maybe you are all right, but don't underestimate the central pawn phalanx! Black usually needs to return a pawn in order to break the phalanx (this I think defines 'best play' by Black here). If Black succeeds he may win; if not the 1 pawn deficit for White doesn't really matter as he essentialy has 15 units (pieces & pawns) vs. 14 units.
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #9 - 09/26/07 at 18:25:02
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chk wrote on 09/26/07 at 06:59:24:
Note: I don't know if you like the usual gambit play (i.e. play for open lines, quick development, etc.), but this is a quite different one as you prepare a slow build-up like a boa strangling..

a very observant point.  this is an unusual "gambit" where white moves the same piece 3 times in the first 4 moves and then that piece leaves the board leaving white with zero pieces developed.  very odd.

Shirov said in his Chessbase dvd on Petroff that he cannot find a way for WHITE to attain equality, meaning black is simply better with best play.
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #8 - 09/26/07 at 15:18:24
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Some comments by Watson here.

http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/jwatson13.html

I have a recollection of something in an NIC yearbook in recent years (by the Dutch GM Dmitri Reinderman, I think) alleging a bust to the Cochrane.  (It was probably a letter published in the "Forum," not a full article.)
  
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #7 - 09/26/07 at 12:42:03
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What has Black done up through move three that could possibly justify White's sacrificing a piece?

I will concede that Black's success against this gambit requires preparation at home, but I refuse to believe that it's sound.  If I thought this would be played against me very often, I would take up the Petroff.
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #6 - 09/26/07 at 07:02:50
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Perhaps it is in the "Twilight Zone" (an intermediate classification that I think was used in a 1980s book on unorthodox openings by Joel Benjamin and Eric Schiller); in the last decade or so it has been evaluated as equal/unclear/compensation by some sources (e.g. ECO), while being alleged to be unsound by others (e.g. Watson) ...
  
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chk
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #5 - 09/26/07 at 06:59:24
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I started to play this last year. I have done some analysis & studying (see also games by Vitolinsh and Fedorov). White can get an advantage if Black plays inaccurately. However, if Black plays the modern reply (1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nxf7 Kxf7 5. d4 c5!?) it is difficult to understand what's going on as Black seems to find ways to return material and even sacrifice some more to gain the more active pieces. But I cannot advise you much on that as I have little practical experience (I, for once, wish I was facing more Petroffs!  Shocked).

Note: I don't know if you like the usual gambit play (i.e. play for open lines, quick development, etc.), but this is a quite different one as you prepare a slow build-up like a boa strangling..
  

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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #4 - 09/26/07 at 06:51:18
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Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #3 - 09/26/07 at 06:49:06
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By the way, this gambit cannot be unsound since Topalov plaid it against Kramnik at Linares in 1999.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255554
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #2 - 09/26/07 at 06:34:27
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iirc Shirov has some thoughts on this in his petroff dvd.

at a less exalted level (any of us below say 2600) then may be a reasonable try.
  
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Re: Cochrane Gambit
Reply #1 - 09/26/07 at 05:54:48
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If blacks is prepared against it, it can be tough to get an advantage with white. But most black players do not expect white to play this gambit. So, if you play it not too regularly, it could be a very dangerous weapon.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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C42: Cochrane Gambit
09/26/07 at 05:15:49
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Hi!

I want to know if actually Cochrane Gambit is possible to play or theory think is dubious.
I see some games of GM Sulskis

Thanks

« Last Edit: 08/10/12 at 08:03:41 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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