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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trying to play 1...e5, but... (Read 10219 times)
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #12 - 10/02/07 at 05:45:10
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smrex13,

Kaufman's repertoire is terrific but demands some hard work. I think you could try the "Hugarian Defence"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Defence

It has been told to be a bit passive but I think that strategically fits the bill.



  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #11 - 10/02/07 at 01:16:42
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There are so many. If you already have Kaufman, I doubt if you will have much benefit from yet another title. Theory of the Italian (except Evans) has been stable for ages. Maybe it is better to give us a few lines that trouble you. You might get more responses than you can handle.  Wink
  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #10 - 10/02/07 at 00:44:06
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Thanks to everyone for the informative replies.  I know that 1...e5 has long term benefits, but in the short term there is a lot of frustration and quick defeats.  To be honest, the line that is giving me the most difficulty is the Italian.  My scores are better with the Two Knights, althought I generally prefer to play 3...Bc5 because I like solid, strategic play when possible.  I have Kaufman and Pinski's books, but there seem to be so many early deviations in the Italian that fall through the cracks.  Can anyone recommend a book with a good overview of the 3...Bc5 Italian?  I really feel like I should be able to hold my own in the Giuoco Piano, but I'm currently struggling.  

Thanks again!
Scott
  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #9 - 10/01/07 at 18:56:52
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There is a lot of wisdom in the comments here. How often us amateurs say that they would love to play the Black side of the Ruy Lopez, but are afraid of all the other White openings. You know, you never hear professional players say that. They are thrilled when White essays anything but the Ruy since they know they are in for an easiar ride.

There is no shortage of 1...e5 repertoire books these days. But i think if you can get ahold of any book of old annotated classic games with lots of 1 e4 e5, it will help tremendously too. It is said that playing open games is a great way to develop your tactical skill. And it is said that understanding the Ruy Lopez is the essential to developing positional understanding. So when you play 1....e5, you get two for the price of one.
  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #8 - 09/29/07 at 21:07:34
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It is true, that I prefer the Two Knights to the Italian. I assumed Scott already had made his choice. Fact is, that White cannot trick into another opening if Black is aware of the possibole transpositions.

Scott, to meet the openings I mentioned above you don't have to know much more than the lines I gave. As LeeRoth wrote, Black's moves are usually very logical and easy to remember once you have seen them. Eg if you decide to play ...Ne7 against the Göring and Danish you only have to know ...d5 and that is it. No tricks here. So I think Willempie's systematical approach is a good advice indeed. I also agree, that you will have the best results if you treat them as respectable openings.
  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #7 - 09/29/07 at 13:30:50
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smrex13 wrote on 09/28/07 at 23:45:12:
Hi everyone,

I hope that this message find all of you well.  I have recently been gravitating towards 1...e5 as my response to 1.e4.  I've had some fascinating battles in the closed Spanish, and I love all of the positions that arise in this rich opening.  I have also come to grips with the King's Gambit and Scotch, and I have developed lines that I am comfortable with.  However, it seems that there are endless early deviations in lines like the Evans, Ponziani, Center Game, Vienna, etc. that can send Black down to a very quick defeat.  

When I play the French, Caro, or Sicilian, I almost always get a playable middlegame.  With 1...e5 it seems that Black needs to know a lot of theory just to stay on the board.  Some players have told me that after a while I will feel comfortable with the early deviations and that theory doesn't change much (except for the Spanish and Scotch).  I was wondering what your experience has been in this area. I'd like to think there is an ultimate payoff for the time invested, but being the victim of miniatures in 'theoretically harmless' openings is frustrating.  Returning to the French and knowing I'll be alive after 15 moves is tempting..

I'd just like to get your input on the development of your 1...e5 repertoire and whether it's true that there's a point at which you can feel confident in most of the deviations and focus the majority of your energies on the critical lines.

Thanks for any opinions you care to share.

Sincerely,
Scott

I the past i  used to play the french and the Caro and some side lines of the sicilian, but now i enjoy playing 1...e5!
You say "With 1...e5 it seems that Black needs to know a lot of theory just to stay on the board. " I don't think so, yes "black needs to know a lot of theory" but when the work is done i assure you that you get very good and safe positions  Cool A lot of good books are now available.
If you like to play classicaly and enjoy playing the black side of the RL, don't give up 1...e5, It will pay in the end.
  

« Les pions sont l'âme des échecs. » Philidor
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #6 - 09/29/07 at 09:59:19
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smrex13 wrote on 09/28/07 at 23:45:12:
Hi everyone,

I hope that this message find all of you well.  I have recently been gravitating towards 1...e5 as my response to 1.e4.  I've had some fascinating battles in the closed Spanish, and I love all of the positions that arise in this rich opening.  I have also come to grips with the King's Gambit and Scotch, and I have developed lines that I am comfortable with.  However, it seems that there are endless early deviations in lines like the Evans, Ponziani, Center Game, Vienna, etc. that can send Black down to a very quick defeat.  

These lines shouldnt really be bothersome, but you will face them from time to time and discover you forgot the exact lines. At least that is what happens to me. I think that from this point (since you know your ruy, KG and scotch) you should worry about 2 things only. What to play vs 3.Bc4 and the scotch gambit and lastly look up some lines in the others such as vienna and ponziani. For the first there are quite some threads in this folder. The thing is that you have to decide between Giuoco with a possible Evans or a TKD. Whichever you choose you can use the same choice against the scotch. Most books (and Mnb) recommend the 2nd approach, while I personally favourr the first. For the 2nd issue, you should get a repertoire book (which of course will also help with the first). Just don't make 1 error in thinking when facing them: These are bad openings, but they cant be refuted (as in black wins automatically), so settle for equality and dont try to "punish" your opponent.

Oh yes and that tip of LeeRoth works against almost everything with d4 in it.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #5 - 09/29/07 at 06:29:57
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smrex13 wrote on 09/28/07 at 23:45:12:
Hi everyone,

I hope that this message find all of you well.  I have recently been gravitating towards 1...e5 as my response to 1.e4.  I've had some fascinating battles in the closed Spanish, and I love all of the positions that arise in this rich opening.  I have also come to grips with the King's Gambit and Scotch, and I have developed lines that I am comfortable with.  However, it seems that there are endless early deviations in lines like the Evans, Ponziani, Center Game, Vienna, etc. that can send Black down to a very quick defeat. 

When I play the French, Caro, or Sicilian, I almost always get a playable middlegame.  With 1...e5 it seems that Black needs to know a lot of theory just to stay on the board.  Some players have told me that after a while I will feel comfortable with the early deviations and that theory doesn't change much (except for the Spanish and Scotch).  I was wondering what your experience has been in this area. I'd like to think there is an ultimate payoff for the time invested, but being the victim of miniatures in 'theoretically harmless' openings is frustrating.  Returning to the French and knowing I'll be alive after 15 moves is tempting..

I'd just like to get your input on the development of your 1...e5 repertoire and whether it's true that there's a point at which you can feel confident in most of the deviations and focus the majority of your energies on the critical lines.

Thanks for any opinions you care to share.

Sincerely,
Scott

Why don't you go for the Latvian gambit? The among of theory will be considerably reduced and your games will be very interesting (at least for white)? Cheesy
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #4 - 09/29/07 at 04:37:33
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smrex13 wrote on 09/28/07 at 23:45:12:
Hi everyone,

I hope that this message find all of you well.  I have recently been gravitating towards 1...e5 as my response to 1.e4.  I've had some fascinating battles in the closed Spanish, and I love all of the positions that arise in this rich opening.  I have also come to grips with the King's Gambit and Scotch, and I have developed lines that I am comfortable with.  However, it seems that there are endless early deviations in lines like the Evans, Ponziani, Center Game, Vienna, etc. that can send Black down to a very quick defeat.  

When I play the French, Caro, or Sicilian, I almost always get a playable middlegame.  With 1...e5 it seems that Black needs to know a lot of theory just to stay on the board.  Some players have told me that after a while I will feel comfortable with the early deviations and that theory doesn't change much (except for the Spanish and Scotch).  I was wondering what your experience has been in this area. I'd like to think there is an ultimate payoff for the time invested, but being the victim of miniatures in 'theoretically harmless' openings is frustrating.  Returning to the French and knowing I'll be alive after 15 moves is tempting..

I'd just like to get your input on the development of your 1...e5 repertoire and whether it's true that there's a point at which you can feel confident in most of the deviations and focus the majority of your energies on the critical lines.

Thanks for any opinions you care to share.

Sincerely,
Scott


You did it in the wrong order, first it is neccessary to master all the non Lopez lines and only after that has been achieved should one move onto a study of the Ruy Lopez. The reason for this is that the Ruy is for the most part a highly strategical opening where one can often get a playable game as black without the danger of being blown off the board in a minature, and even though a lack of concrete knowledge may cost you a point in the end, its usually a slow death with your dignity kept intact.

As you have no doubt discovered, a lack of knowledge in non lopez lines often lead to an abrupt embarrassing and undignified rout. The good news though, is that only the Ruy and perhaps the Scotch (maybe) offer any real hope of an edge against a prepared player.

Without a shadow of a doubt all potential 1e4 e5 players should have the Two Knights Defence (TKD) in their repertoire, the reason being that 90% (guesstimate) of all e4 e5 gambits can be successfully neutralised by transposition into the TKD which makes it a highly efficient repertoire choice.

As mentioned before the books by Emms and Davies are quite good, the one by Marin could also be considered. Beyond this look for a strong mentor to fill in the blanks, for e.g mine is Mark Hebden when it comes to 1.e5 e5 positions as black, why, because he has been playing it for decades exclusively and though he apparently hates to write, an examination of his games and choice of lines speaks volumes. In particular he was a former Kings Gambit player, so his choice of variation as Black is particularly interesting not to mention strong.  Wink

Lastly I forgot to explain why you did it in the wrong order, the answer is simple, it is always advisable to come to grips with tactical issues first before dealing with strategical ones. Chess is 99% tactics (guesstimate) so unless one can handle confidently the sharp situations that occur in open games then it is pointless bothering about the finer strategical nuances of the Ruy Lopez.

You will know its time to move on to a serious study of the Ruy Lopez  as black, when you inwardly jump for joy at opponents who naively choose trappy inferior alternatives or worse yet toothless inferior alternatives.

Toppy Smiley  
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #3 - 09/29/07 at 01:32:57
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I basically agree with MNb.  Don't give up on 1..e5.  The Emms book can lead you through the different lines.  Your friends are right that the theory doesn't change much and once you learn it, you'll have it for life.  Also, the theory in the open games tends to be somewhat logical and, therefore, easy to learn.  (And, when in doubt, ..d5 usually works against everything. Wink

LeeRoth
   

  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #2 - 09/29/07 at 00:51:06
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MNB,

Thanks for the quick response.  Your lines are helpful, but they also illuminate my dilemma.  You show 5-7 sharp lines that a 1...e5 player has to know (and there are numerous deviations from these lines), while Black can just play the French without any thought of sharp, early deviations. Don't get me wrong, I love 1..e5, but there aren't many books out there that guide Black through the dangerous mine field.

It seems that Black has to spend a lot of time on early move orders/deviations.  I just hope that there is a long-term payoff.

Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #1 - 09/29/07 at 00:16:52
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Don't give up that soon and buy Emms and a book on the Italian.
There really is no need to become victim of the openings you mentioned. Except the Evans and the Modern Italian you only need to memorize one or two lines to get good play as Black against each deviation.
A few examples:
Ponziani: 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 (5.dxe5 Bc5) Ne7 (or Nb8) 6.Nxe5 Ng6.
Four Knights: 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bb5 (4.Bc4 Bc5; 4.g3 d5; 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 has been debated in the infamous Belgrad thread of Bruce Monson) Bb4 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 d6 7.Bg5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Qe7 9.Re1 Nd8 10.d4 Bg4.
Scottish Gambit: 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.c3 Bc5.
Göring Gambit: 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Ne7 or do more work and play 4...dxc3.
Danish Gambit: 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 (3.Nf3 Nc6; 3.Bc4 Nc6;) Ne7 or dxc3. Emms is not consequent here.
Centre Game: 2.d4 exd4 3.Qxd4 Nc6 4.Qe3 Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 0-0 7.0-0-0 Re8 8.Bc4 (8.f3 d5; 8.Qg3 Rxe4!?) d6 and 9...Na5.
Vienna: 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 (3.g3 d5; 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Na5 or Bc5, depending on your defence against the KG) d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.Nf3 (5.d3 Nxc3 6.bxc3 d4 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 Nxd4) Bc5 6.d4 (6.Qe2 Bf2+ 7.Kf1 Nxc3+ 8.bxc3 Bh4) Bb4 7.Bd2 (7.Qd3 c5) Nxd2 8.Qxd2 Nc6
Bishop Game: 2.Bc4 Bc5 (nothing wrong with Nf6 of course) 3.d3 (3.Nf3 Nc6; 3.b4 Bb6 as Black can play ...c6; ...Bc7; and ...Nbd7;) d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.f4 (hoping for a KGD) Bg4! Forster-Smyslov, Zürich 1998.
  

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Trying to play 1...e5, but...
09/28/07 at 23:45:12
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Hi everyone,

I hope that this message find all of you well.  I have recently been gravitating towards 1...e5 as my response to 1.e4.  I've had some fascinating battles in the closed Spanish, and I love all of the positions that arise in this rich opening.  I have also come to grips with the King's Gambit and Scotch, and I have developed lines that I am comfortable with.  However, it seems that there are endless early deviations in lines like the Evans, Ponziani, Center Game, Vienna, etc. that can send Black down to a very quick defeat.  

When I play the French, Caro, or Sicilian, I almost always get a playable middlegame.  With 1...e5 it seems that Black needs to know a lot of theory just to stay on the board.  Some players have told me that after a while I will feel comfortable with the early deviations and that theory doesn't change much (except for the Spanish and Scotch).  I was wondering what your experience has been in this area. I'd like to think there is an ultimate payoff for the time invested, but being the victim of miniatures in 'theoretically harmless' openings is frustrating.  Returning to the French and knowing I'll be alive after 15 moves is tempting..

I'd just like to get your input on the development of your 1...e5 repertoire and whether it's true that there's a point at which you can feel confident in most of the deviations and focus the majority of your energies on the critical lines.

Thanks for any opinions you care to share.

Sincerely,
Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
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