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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trying to play 1...e5, but... (Read 10216 times)
smrex13
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #27 - 10/03/07 at 20:38:24
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Just wanted to say thank you so much to all of you for your helful replies.  I really appreciate the time that you spent, and I look forward to a fruitful 1...e5 career  Smiley.

Thanks again,
Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #26 - 10/03/07 at 15:18:36
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tafl wrote on 10/02/07 at 10:53:10:
If the Italian with an early d3 and Bg5 looks like a forced win for White to you, the solution is definitely not to memorize opening lines. Instead try to analyze your losses with the help of a stronger player (or possibly with an analysis engine); do some tactical exercises and play some blitz against qualified opposition. That will improve your understanding and tactical ability. Then, in a few months or years it may be time to study the opening.


Amen to that.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #25 - 10/03/07 at 13:54:37
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Hey Scott, check out this games. I'm sure that from now on you will crush White!!!  Grin Grin Grin

Short,N (2685) - Aleksandrov,A (2655) [C50]
Cesme, 2004
[Short,N]


Chess Informant 92/312 

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.Nc3 Nf6
5.d3 d6

6.Bg5 h6

7.Bxf6 Qxf6
8.Nd5 Qd8
9.c3 a6
10.d4 Ba7
11.dxe5 Nxe5
12.Nxe5 dxe5
13.Qh5 0-0
14.Qxe5 Re8
15.Qf4 Qd6
16.Qxd6

[16.Qf3 Be6 17.0-0-0 Qe5 18.Be2 (18.Bb3 c6 19.Nb4 Bxb3 20.axb3 Qxe4 21.Qxe4 Rxe4 22.Rd7=) 18...Rad8=;

16.0-0-0 Qxf4+ 17.Nxf4 Bxf2 18.Rhf1 Be3+ 19.Kc2 Bg4! 20.Rde1 Rxe4 21.Bxf7+ Kxf7 22.Nd5+ Kg6 23.Rxe3=;

16.f3 Qc5 17.Qg3 Be6! (17...Qxc4 18.Nf6+ Kf8 19.Nxe8 Kxe8 20.Qxg7 Qc5! 21.0-0-0 Qg5+ 22.Qxg5 hxg5=) 18.Nf6+ Kh8! (18...Kf8 19.Nxe8 (19.Nh7+ Kg8 20.Nf6+=) 19...Bxc4 (19...Qe3+ 20.Be2 Bc4 21.Qxg7+ Kxe8 22.Qe5+ Kf8=) 20.Qxg7+ Kxe8 21.0-0-0 Qg5+=) 19.Nxe8 Qe3+ 20.Kd1! (20.Be2 Rxe8 21.Kf1 Rd8‚) 20...Rxe8 21.Bxe6 fxe6 (21...Qd3+=) 22.Qe1 Rd8+ 23.Kc2 Qd3+ 24.Kb3 Qb5+=]

16...Rxe4+
17.Ne3N [17.Kd2 cxd6 18.Bb3]
17...cxd6
18.Bd5 Re5 [18...Re7! 19.0-0-0 Bxe3+ 20.fxe3 Be6=]
19.0-0-0 Bxe3+ [19...Rb8 20.Nc4 Rxd5 21.Rxd5 Be6 22.Rhd1 Bxd5 23.Rxd5 Bxf2 24.Nxd6]
20.fxe3 Rxe3?! [20...Rb8! 21.Bf3 Be6 22.Rxd6 Bxa2]



Belorusov,M (2305) - Becerra Rivero,J (2535) [C50]
Philadelphia Philadelphia, 2005
[Becerra Rivero,J; Gonzalez,Ren]


Chess Informant 92/(312) 

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Nf6
4.Nc3 Bc5
5.d3 d6

6.Bg5 h6 *

7.Bh4 Be6 [7...g5 8.Bg3 a6!?]
8.Bxe6 [8.Nd5 g5] 8...fxe6
9.Na4 0-0N [9...Bb6]
10.Nxc5 dxc5
11.Qd2 Qd6
12.Qc3 [12.0-0-0!?]
12...Nh5

13.Bg3 Rxf3!

14.gxf3 Nd4
15.Kd2 [15.Kf1 Qf8! 16.Rg1 (16.Bxe5 Qxf3 17.Rg1 Qe2+ 18.Kg2 Rf8 19.Bxd4 Nf4+ 20.Kg3 Qh5-+) 16...Qxf3]
15...Rf8
16.Raf1 b5!


  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #24 - 10/03/07 at 13:33:23
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When White plays Bg5:



Van der Wiel,John TH (2570) - Van der Sterren,Paul (2470) [C54]
NED-ch41 Hilversum (11), 1986
[Ripperger]

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 Nf6
5.Bg5 d6
6.c3 h6
7.Bh4 g5
8.Bg3 Now the bishop is out of the game for some time. On the other hand, Black can no longer castle short.
8...Bg4
9.Nbd2 a6
10.Qe2 Qd7
11.h4 Nh5
12.hxg5 hxg5
13.b4 Ba7
14.b5 axb5
15.Bxb5 Ke7 Black has the initiative.
16.Qf1 Bb6?! [16...Nxg3 is better.]
17.Nxg5?!  17...Nb4!
18.cxb4 Qxb5
19.Rh4 Bd7
20.Qe2 Nf4
21.Qf3 f6 [21...Bd4!]
22.Nh7 Qxd3
23.Bxf4 Qxf3
24.Nxf3 exf4
25.Rh6 Be6?! [Much stronger is 25...Bc6 ]

  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #23 - 10/03/07 at 12:57:58
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If somebody wants or it's interested in some Giuoco lines, I can post it from CD.  Cheesy
  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #22 - 10/03/07 at 12:53:55
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Rossia.
Thanks hadnt seen that CD. May have a look.

Modern Italian
Scott: Bologan quite the fiend from the white side. Check out his games in any good dbase. Yes, I realise you are looking for black, but if you think you can handle his stuff referring to the CD, Emms,   Kaufmann, Marin whomever, consider it a job well done.
  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #21 - 10/03/07 at 12:27:32
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I thought that it would be nice to help our friend Scott to grasp Italian game, so I decided to post excerpts from  CD "Giuoco Piano C50 - C54" written by Reinhold Ripperger, published by Chessbase Hamburg.

So Scott this is for you:

THE GIUOCO PIANO

The Giuoco Piano is one of the oldest openings in the history of chess. It was first mentioned in the "Göttingen Manuscript" (1490). In 1512 in Rome the Portuguese player Damiano published the first chess book in Italian. "Questo libro e da imparare giocare a Schacchi et de li Partiti" treats amongst other openings the move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5. At about the same time, there were some Italian authors writing about it, which led to it receiving the name "The Italian Game". But chess players in other countries of Europe were also examining this move order. Thus for example the opening is described in the writings of the Spaniard Luis Ramirez de Lucena.

The first extensive analyses of the Giuoco Piano were published by Polerio (1590) and later the Calabrian Gioacchino Greco (1619). These publications were a valuable contribution to the theory of the opening and encouraged further development. Relatively accurate analysis can be found in Lolli's treatise "Osservazioni Teoretico Practiche Sopra il ginoco degli Scacchi" (Modena 1763).

For a long time, it was the considered opinion that White's attack in the Giuoco Piano was particularly dangerous and that defending against it was especially difficult. However, ways were later discovered which enabled Black to withstand successfully White's initiative.

In our day, it was no less a player than Max Euwe, who made chess players aware of the interesting possibilities in this opening and who recommended its use to them. As the future world champion said, sharp positions occur after 4.c2-c3 and the follow-up d2-d4, positions in which is hidden the latent energy which will soon explode on the scene.

So the Giuoco Piano is a double-edged opening, in which the struggle for the initiative is conducted above all along tactical lines. At the heart of most variations is the idea of setting up a powerful white pawn centre, in order then to attack the weakest point in the black camp - the f7 square. In the very opening stages, White does not shrink from losses, willingly sacrificing pawns and even from time to time pieces, just in order to get well ahead of his opponent in development and to seize the initiative for himself. The plethora of attacking and counter-attacking possibilities proves attractive to many chess players who use the Giuoco Piano, since in it demands are regularly and concretely made on the player's ability to create combinations.

In the five long centuries the opening has been in use, there have frequently been basic re-evaluations of the most important variations. This has also been just as much the case in the 20th century. In his, "Theoretische Abhandlung über die Italienische Partie", Berlin 1924, the German theoretician A. Ritzen maintained that White's attack brings the first player an incontrovertible advantage. The author even went so far as to follow Black's 3...Bc5 with a question mark. This evaluation was contradicted in 1925 by the prominent Soviet grandmaster Grigori Levenfish. Another important contribution to the further development of theory was provided by the Soviet theoretician Sek. The result of his work was a fresh evaluation of many of the lines. One of the most important works in German is "Die Italienische Partie" by Jakob Estrin in 1984.

The very fact that almost all world champions have made use of this opening in their praxis proves that over the centuries the Giuoco Piano has lost none of its charm. Chess theory is a never-ending process. Game after game is played somewhere in the world, with its contribution to our theoretical knowledge. Like no other, this opening reflects the development of the game of chess. This is why the Giuoco Piano is best suited for those making a start on their way through the paths of the theory of the opening. Every well-rounded chess player should have a feeling for the development of chess in his own personal striving for perfection.

In over 500 years, countless players, analysts and chess writers have embellished the Giuoco Piano and contributed to its further development. Yet it has lost none of its charm. From it, you can just as easily end up with a sharp tactical battle or rather a quiet positional game.

This is the reason that the opening is so important for all chess players and all trainers!

Let me bring it to your attention that it would be quite wrong to learn by rote all the continuations and move orders you will see here. It is far more important to understand the idea behind this or that line, and to think things through in a critical way. This is the only path that leads to an increase in your playing strength.

We shall begin aour investigations into the Giuoco Piano with the above mentioned analysis by Gioacchino Greco. Greco,G - Analysis  1-0. it contains important strategical and tactical knowledge and therefore teaches us a lot about the general criteria for opening a game of chess, developing the pieces, fighting for the centre and bringing our king to safety. I recommend that you play through this game several times slowly and conscientiously in order to get a good feel for the most important strategical and tactical motifs.

THE MODERN SYSTEM

In this chapter we turn to a relatively new way of playing, which has little in common with the classical ways of treating the Giuoco Piano. The Modern System comes after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 and 5.d3.

Naturally this position can also occur after a transposition of moves. If, for example, you know that your opponent likes to play Petrov's Defence, then as White you have the chance to lead into a Giuoco Piano Modern System via the following sequence of moves: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nf3 Bc5 and 5.c3. We will find another example in the game (!), in which Black declines the Evans Gambit and obtains a position from the Modern System. White can also avoid the Two Knights Defence 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 by 4.d3 and after 4...Bc5 use 5.c3 to take himself into the Modern System.

Basically the two pawn moves c3 and d3 can be played in either order. There are only two exceptions to this:

1.) Whenever White wants to play b4, he should start with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.b4 Bb6 and only then play 6.d3. The move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3 a6 6.b4?! does not make sense because Black can now play 6...Ba7.

2.) If White intends to develop his queen's bishop to g5, as in Van der Wiel,J - Van der Sterren,P  1-0, then the move order should be 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Bg5 d6 6.d3, since otherwise Black can play h6.

The sort of positions which arise from this variation often resemble positions from the Ruy Lopez. The individual systems are however not yet analysed so deeply as is the case in the Ruy Lopez. Perhaps this is one reason why we far more often find players from the top echelon playing the Modern System rather than the Greco Variation.

The opening phase of the game is much calmer than in the classical variations and the focal point of interest is shifted to the middlegame. It is difficult to distinguish main lines and variations and fixed move orders, since both sides have several moves to choose from in almost all the positions. So in what follows I shall attempt to clarify the plans and strategical nuances of this interesting line..

In tournament praxis we often come across this position:

White now essentially has three continuations at his disposal:
A - 9.Re1
B - 9.h3
C - Nc4

A - 9.Re1
The move 9.Re1 has come to have a bad name because of the sharp answer 9...Ng4!. The game Martin Gonzalez,A - Rodriguez Cespedes,A  0-1 is an enlightening example of why. Two other interesting games on this theme are: Carlier,B - Silva  0-1 and Reefat,B - Aleksandrov,A  0-1.

B - 9.h3
Thus the innovation 9.h3 appeared in the world championship game Karpov,A - Kortschnoj,V  ˝-˝. Also in Karpov,A - Jussupow,A  1-0 the former world champion shows us how to handle this variation.

C - Nc4
This move is very flexible and thus enjoys great popularity. The knight exerts pressure on e5 and controls the e3-square, with the result that Be3 becomes possible. In the games Torre,E - Kamsky,G  1-0, Benjamin,J - Kaidanov,G  1-0 and Dolmatov,S - Kruppa,Y  1-0 you will learn all you need to know about this line.

Black's central pawn advance d5 plays an important role in the Modern System. The pawn can either come from d7 or d6 and can advance at quite different points in the opening. In Karpov,A - Kortschnoj,V  ˝-˝ d5 is played on move 10. In the game Dolmatov,S - Salov,V  ˛ Black forgoes d6 and plays 8...d5 and in Ibragimov,I - Kaidanov,G  0-1 the pawn push happens as early as move 7. In the GM game Gelfand,B - Adams,M  ˝-˝ White postpones castling in favour of a rapid mobilization of his pieces and Black counters with the thematic opening of the centre by d5.

  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #20 - 10/03/07 at 09:02:26
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One of the chess truths goes like this: "The best respons on 1.e4 is 1.... e5!"

I do not doubt in given statement. All World Champions played 1.... e5, strong GM's also.

By not working enough or by not studying with good books or other disposable sources puts everyone off, and this is valid a specially for you Scott.

There are no miracles. Some chess "voodoos" offer you "few hours chess mastership". Only fools believe in this. Just read Yermolinky's excellent "Road to chess improvement" to see and be enlightened with objectives in chess, learning and going on chess stairs.

As in our lives as in chess one has to put some time, effort, energy and hard work in order to achieve our goals. If you want to have academic degree you have to learn, and not visit some evening three months courses. Nobody is LL, PhD or bachelor in a week! Also in chess!

So dear Scott, here is a recommended reading if you wish to play 1.... e5:

1. Marin: Beating the Open Games
- everything except Spanish

2. Marin: A Spanish Opening Repertoire for Black

3. Davies: Play 1.e4 e5!, also available as a CD in chessbase format
- full coverage

4. Emms: Play the Open Games as Black
- everything except Spanish

I hope Scott that you will reconsider playing 1.... e5 after all!  Grin

Best wishes Scott from Russia!

PS I played exclusively Sicilian Najdorf for years till summer. Equipped with Marin books I'm experiencing some kind of chess resurrection. Do not throw 1.... e5 away, it's wonderful and lifetime chess nuke weapon!  Cool

  
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #19 - 10/02/07 at 21:19:06
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I agree with Willempie, that the Hungarian is inferior. Why plays such a move, if there are more active ones that are also fully sound?
Concerning that Bg5 problem, this basically has been solved by Tsjigorin:

Knorre-Tsjigorin, 1900
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 (Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.0-0 d6 is the other move order) 4.d3 d6 5.0-0? d6 6.g5 h6 7.Bh4? g5 8.Bg3 h5!! 9.Nxg5 h4!! 10.Nxf7 hxg3 11.Nxd8 Bg4 12.Qd2 Nd4 13.Nc3 (13.h3 Ne2+ 14.Kh1 Rxh3+) Nf3+ 0-1.

Another line you have to see once to never forget.
  

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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #18 - 10/02/07 at 11:57:16
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CraigEvans wrote on 10/02/07 at 11:36:25:
As for 3...Bc5, I'd never play it. If white plays well then black can never hope for more than a draw really, and unlike the Two Knights black doesn't set any particular tactical challenges. I'd prefer the Hungarian to 3...Bc5 as well, as I feel black does best to break the symmetry as early as possible, and also avoid any problems in the d3, Bg5 lines as you've mentioned.

If all my opponents had played the Hungarian I would never have stopped playing the Italian as white. You either get an inferior philidor position with 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 exd4 (dare I suggest 5.c5 here) or you get a really bad endgame with 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 d6 5.dxe5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #17 - 10/02/07 at 11:36:25
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I think you over-estimate the solidity of the French and Caro:

1.e4 e6 2.b3!? is the dangerous Reti Gambit; 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 and now 3...Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.Qg4!? is a dangerous idea which has recently been mentioned in a few places (I'm scoring very heavily with it), 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nd7 5.Qh5 is the infamous Haldane attack, 3...Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nd7 6.h4 is the more respected Alekhine-Chatard Attack, and 3...dxe4 4.f3 gives white possibilities to transpose into BDG-type waters.
1.e4 c6 2.f4 has scored even more heavily for me - 2...d5 and now 3.Nf3!? dxe4 4.Ng5 and white has good chances for an early attack. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 has also been a good points-gatherer for me and many others over the last few years. And black would be foolhardy to enter the Panov-Botvinnik without a good knowledge of the opening, if he doesn't want to be blown off the board.

I switched to 1...e5 a few years back, and like you never really looked at the theory of these earlier deviations... however, I haven't suffered your same problem, I've basically scored well against everything except the Scotch. I'd suggest that it's only a small outlay of time required (with the aforementioned Emms book, for example) to get rid of any worries with the Danish/Goring, Ponziani and Centre Game. If you've cracked the Ruy, Scotch and KG, then you're streets ahead of most people...

As for 3...Bc5, I'd never play it. If white plays well then black can never hope for more than a draw really, and unlike the Two Knights black doesn't set any particular tactical challenges. I'd prefer the Hungarian to 3...Bc5 as well, as I feel black does best to break the symmetry as early as possible, and also avoid any problems in the d3, Bg5 lines as you've mentioned.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #16 - 10/02/07 at 11:03:31
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smrex13 wrote on 10/02/07 at 10:27:46:
Willempie,

Thanks for the lines.  It seems many players in the Italian (at least at my level) aim for d3 and a quick pin of the f6 Knight.  It's not covered in most books, but it's almost a forced win without some guidance.  Again, I can just return to the French or Caro and know that I will never have to worry about this kind of early attack/initiatilve.  I'm not sure I see the payoff to playing 1..e5 unless I have endless hours to dedicate to memorizing opening moves.
Scott

That's the Canal 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5
In this and similar positions, you have to be aware of a couple of things:
-White's main threat is Nd5, so you either have to avoid that or neutralise it.
-Whatever you do in these types of positions, think twice before castling. The move Bg5 is often very effective for white when he hasnt castled and black has. Eg in this position 6..0-0 is suicidal after 7.Nd5. There is no way you can avoid your kingside getting wrecked.

This means that in these positions you normally only have 2 avenues:
-Neutralise the Nd5 move with Na5. Check Bronstein's play:
[Event "URS-ch20"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "1952.??.??"]
[White "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Black "Bronstein,David I"]
[Result "0-1"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5 Na5 7.Nd5 Nxc4 8.dxc4 c6 9.Nxf6+ gxf6 10.Be3 Qb6 11.Qd2 Be6 12.0-0-0 0-0-0 13.b3 Rhg8 14.Rhg1 a5 15.Bxc5 Qxc5 16.Qe3 Qxe3+ 17.fxe3 Rg4 18.Nd2 Rdg8 19.g3 Kd7 20.Kb2 Ke7 21.Kc3 h5 22.Rgf1 h4 23.gxh4 Rxh4 24.Rf2 Rgh8 25.Rh1 R8h6 26.Kd3 d5 27.cxd5 cxd5 28.c4 dxc4+ 29.Nxc4 Rh8 30.Nxa5 Rd8+ 31.Kc3 Rxe4 32.h4 Rxe3+ 33.Kb2 f5 34.h5 f4 35.h6 Rh8 36.Nxb7 Bd5 37.Rc1 Rxh6 38.Rc7+ Kf8 39.Nc5 f3 40.Kc2 Re1 41.Nd3 Re4 42.Kd2 Rd6 43.Rc8+ Ke7 44.Rc3 Be6 45.a4 Red4 46.Kc2 e4 47.Ne5 Bf5 48.Re3 Kf6 49.Nc4 Rd8 50.a5 Kg5 51.Kb2 Kf4 52.Rc3 Be6 53.Ne3 Rd3 0-1

-Or go 6..h6. Since you havent castled you can always play g5 if white retreats with 7.Bh4. Take special note of black's moves 7-10
[Date "1923.07.08"]
[White "Romanovsky,Peter Arsenievich"]
[Black "Levenfish,Grigory"]
[Result "0-1"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bh4 Bg4 8.h3 Bxf3
9.Qxf3 Nd4 10.Qd1 c6 11.a3 b5 12.Ba2 a5 13.0-0 g5 14.Bg3 Qd7 15.Ne2 h5 16.Nxd4 Bxd4 17.c3 Bb6 18.Qf3 Bd8 19.d4 g4 20.hxg4 hxg4 21.Qe3 Bb6 22.f4 exd4 23.cxd4 0-0-0 24.Rad1 d5 25.e5 Ne4 26.Bb1 f5 27.exf6 Rde8 28.Bxe4 Rxe4 29.Qc3 Kb7 30.Rfe1 Qh7 31.Kf2 Rhe8 32.Rxe4 Rxe4 33.Kg1 Qh8 34.Bf2 Rxf4 35.Be3 Rxf6 36.Rf1 g3 37.Rxf6 Qxf6 38.Qd3 Bc7 39.b3 Bf4 40.b4 axb4
41.axb4 Qh6 42.Bxf4 Qxf4 43.Qf3 Qc1+ 0-1
Normally white would exchange with 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Nd5 and now Qg6 is interesting.


To show what can happen when castling too quickly:
[Event "corr!!!!"]
[Date "1944.??.??"]
[White "Peper"]
[Black "Pearce"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C50"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Bg5 0-0?? 6.Nc3 d6 7.Nd5! Kh8 8.Bxf6 gxf6 9.Qd2 f5 10.Qh6 f6 11.Nh4 Rf7 12.Ng6+ Kg8 13.Nxf6+ Qxf6 14.Qf8+  1-0

And to show why Bg5 and 0-0 dont mix(the exact game has been played numerous times) or do a search for Dubois-Steinitz:
[White "Victor Knorre"]
[Black "Mikhail Chigorin"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. O-O Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. Bg5 h6 7. Bh4 g5 8. Bg3 h5 9. Nxg5 h4 10. Nxf7 hxg3 11. Nxd8 Bg4 12. Qd2 Nd4 13. Nc3 Nf3+ 14. gxf3 Bxf3 0-1

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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tafl
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #15 - 10/02/07 at 10:53:10
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If the Italian with an early d3 and Bg5 looks like a forced win for White to you, the solution is definitely not to memorize opening lines. Instead try to analyze your losses with the help of a stronger player (or possibly with an analysis engine); do some tactical exercises and play some blitz against qualified opposition. That will improve your understanding and tactical ability. Then, in a few months or years it may be time to study the opening.
  

A computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kick boxing - Emo Philips
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smrex13
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #14 - 10/02/07 at 10:27:46
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Willempie,

Thanks for the lines.  It seems many players in the Italian (at least at my level) aim for d3 and a quick pin of the f6 Knight.  It's not covered in most books, but it's almost a forced win without some guidance.  Again, I can just return to the French or Caro and know that I will never have to worry about this kind of early attack/initiatilve.  I'm not sure I see the payoff to playing 1..e5 unless I have endless hours to dedicate to memorizing opening moves.
Scott
  

"Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain"  - Bob Dylan
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Willempie
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Re: Trying to play 1...e5, but...
Reply #13 - 10/02/07 at 06:52:19
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smrex13 wrote on 10/02/07 at 00:44:06:
Thanks to everyone for the informative replies.  I know that 1...e5 has long term benefits, but in the short term there is a lot of frustration and quick defeats.  To be honest, the line that is giving me the most difficulty is the Italian.  My scores are better with the Two Knights, althought I generally prefer to play 3...Bc5 because I like solid, strategic play when possible.  I have Kaufman and Pinski's books, but there seem to be so many early deviations in the Italian that fall through the cracks.  Can anyone recommend a book with a good overview of the 3...Bc5 Italian?  I really feel like I should be able to hold my own in the Giuoco Piano, but I'm currently struggling.  

Thanks again!
Scott

I'm not sure if I know any book that would fill that bill, which isnt over 20 years old.

For the pure Giuco it is however easy to give an overview:
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5

4. d3 Nf6
5.Nc3 d6
6. Bg5 (Canal) and now h6 or Na5 are excellent

4. d3 Nf6
5.c3 a6 (or d6) this can also arise via the TKD, this line is most popular at higher levels.

4. c3 Nf6 (others are far less attractive)
5. d4 exd4
6.cxd4 (check sidelines here, some are dangerous) Bb4+
7.Nc3 (Greco/Moller) Nxe4
8.0-0 Here you will have to do some studying, but there are a lot of decent lines to choose from. I suggest avoiding the real main line and play Bxc3 9.d5 Ne5 10.bxc3 Nxc4 and follow Anand.

4. c3 Nf6 (others are far less attractive)
5. d4 exd4
6.cxd4 Bb4+
7.Bd2 (the line most played at amateur level) and here I would just go for the main line 7..Bxd2 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 Nce7 (Tarrasch' "drawing manoeuvre" with Na5 remains an option in that line, which will annoy the hell out of every white player, so they wont allow the repetition and I fell white is worse in that case), though 7..Nxe4 may be well worth investigating.

4.b4 Bxb4
5.c3 Be7 (safest). Check games by Hannes Stefanson as black, but dont forget the lines played by Shirov and Kasparov(!). They beat Timman and Anand with it.

Now the fun part:
3. d4 exd4
4.Bc4 Bc5 (Nf6 is the move if you choose to play TKD). In my experience white often loses track here
5.c3 Nf6 and you are back in the main line Giuoco. Hosts of whites have no idea about this and follow up with 6.0-0 (which is dangerous, but should be very much ok).

3. d4 exd4
4.Bc4 Bc5
5.0-0 d6 there is a thread about this somewhere here, but black is ok.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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