Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tarrasch Defence (Read 24398 times)
Fernando Semprun
Senior Member
****
Offline


Be nice to others. Life
is to be enjoyed!

Posts: 402
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/29/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #52 - 03/31/08 at 18:52:33
Post Tools
I've recently had a look but didnot like the main line after

9.Bg5 c4 10.Ne5 Be6 11.Nc6 bc6 12. b3

Aagaard recommends 12...Qa5, but, quite honestly, the resulting positions don't look either

a) easy to play
b) that Black has activity as compensation

perhaps is my (lack of) chess understanding, but still. What's so active about the Tarrasch?  Huh
  

Fernando Semprun
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gerry1970
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 482
Joined: 02/01/06
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #51 - 01/16/08 at 01:15:26
Post Tools
Hello Dzambus:

After 6...Nc6; 7. Nxd6 Bxd6  8.cxd6 Qxd6 I cannot see anything wrong with Black. He has Q and N developed whereas White has no developed piece. Also has P at d4. I realize White has bishop pair.

Nd6 is not given in 4th edition of ECO so must not be considered the way to go for White.

Take care,

Gerry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dzambus
Junior Member
**
Offline


Let's play chess...

Posts: 63
Location: Poland
Joined: 12/07/04
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #50 - 01/15/08 at 14:38:19
Post Tools
Hi, I have a question to Tarrasch experts.

1. d4 d5
2. c4 e6
3.Nc3 c5
4.cxd5 exd5
5.dxc5 d4
6.Ne4!?

Anybody knows if  it is possible  to defend against Nd6+ and preserve both Black bishops in that line? Tarrasch himself suggested 6...Qd5 , he also played 6..Bxc5 in one game, but I don't like arising positions. I analyzed 6...Bf5 (with an idea to cover b1 square and take b2 pawn after Qb4+) but maybe exist better solution for Black?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
unknown_master
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 23
Joined: 09/15/06
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #49 - 01/14/08 at 19:13:58
Post Tools
sssthepro wrote on 11/27/07 at 02:53:31:
I have a question about one Tarrasch Line. After

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bg5 c4!? (9...cxd4 is the mainline)

This is an interesting line. Usually, Black players play this early in the game, but it seems that it is more effective if you play this move here. Some lines here.

10.Ne5 (Fritz suggested this) Be6 (10...Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Nxd5 Qxe5 14.Qc2 (Or 14.f4 and 15.e4) ) 11.e3 h6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.f4 Ne7 Is White better here? It seems that Black is very solid, and it is not very clear how White can attack on the kingside.

Another line is 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.e4 Nxe4 (12...dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Bxe4 Bd5 also looks okay) 13.Bxe7 Nxc3 14.Bxd8 Nxd1 15.Be7 Nxb2 16.Bxf8 Kxf8

Black has two pawns for the piece, a passed pawn and a terror knight on d3. Actually, I like Black here.

Therefore, what should be played?


I think that 9... c4!? is a very interesting move indeed. The main move is 10. Ne5 and after Be6 White has a choice. 11. e3 has been suggested by Khalifman in his Opening for White according to Kramnik series. Here I'm convinced that your 11... h6! is the best answer and should promise Black a good play. For example 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. f4!? (13. Nxc6 gives White nothing but is more solid) Ne7 and now after 14. g4 Black will go b5!
I completely agree with your assessment of this position. Probably it's still equal but it's hard to see how White should break through on the kingside while he has to watch out not to get into a bad endgame because of Black's queenside majority.

I'm still hoping to find an advantage for White in the mainlines after 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. b3 Qa5 13. Na4! (probably best) but it's not at all easy. This is my problem:

Birarov,V (2485) - Cruzado Duenas,C (2464) [D34]
olm14 qual GP2 B3 corr ICCF Email, 2000

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 c4 10.Ne5 Be6 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.b3 Qa5 13.Na4 Rfd8 14.e3 c5 15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.Qh5 Rac8 18.Rfd1 c3 19.Rac1 Bb4 20.Rd4 c2 21.Rh4 f5 22.Qxh7+ Kf8 23.Qh8+ Ke7 24.Qb2 f4 25.Rxc2 Rxc2 26.Qxc2 fxe3 27.fxe3 Rc8 28.Qd3 Rc1+ 29.Bf1 Bd6 30.Kg2 Qe1 31.Qe2 Qxe2+ 32.Bxe2 Rc2 33.Kf2 a5 34.a3 Be5 35.b4 Bf6 36.Rf4 Be5 37.Rh4 Bf6 38.Rf4 ½-½

This 24... f4!! move is a real shot and programs need quite a while till they understand it's point. After this move Black has solved his problems. (Earlyer this position was assessed as clear advantage for White). The idea is after 25. Rxf4 to sac another pawn with d4! and free the way for the black queen to h5.

Where should White deviate to hope for an advantage in this variation?


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #48 - 12/11/07 at 13:27:32
Post Tools
SS, 9 ...c4 was once of the main lines. Marjanovic played a number of games with it in the 80s, and Grischuk about three years ago. White's main move is 10 Ne5 Be6 11 Nxc6 bxc6 12 b3, but there are many lines. Grivas did an article on it in the latest Chess Base Magazine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #47 - 12/09/07 at 11:46:26
Post Tools
Hi again.

I mailed mr Keilhack to check about when the new revision book is due.

He kindly replied saying that

"I'm sorry, I must delay it for uncertain time. Just made a slight webpage update
"
Looking at the webpage there is no longer any mentioning of a "Revidierte Zweitauflage Ende 2007/Anfang 2008".

Regards / Anders
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #46 - 11/27/07 at 21:28:32
Post Tools
Hi.

As mentioned earlier in the thread Keilhacks work on the Tarrasch has received very good reviews but is now a bit dated (from 1994).

On http://www.kaniaverlag.de/htm/tarrasch-verteidigung.html it is stated that there should be a "Revidierte Zweitauflage Ende 2007/Anfang 2008".

If this means a complete revision of this work then it seems very interesting.  I think however there also is a new print (from a couple of years back) with small update at the end.´

I hope for the complete revision...


Cheers / Anders
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #45 - 11/27/07 at 02:53:31
Post Tools
I have a question about one Tarrasch Line. After

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Bg5 c4!? (9...cxd4 is the mainline)

This is an interesting line. Usually, Black players play this early in the game, but it seems that it is more effective if you play this move here. Some lines here.

10.Ne5 (Fritz suggested this) Be6 (10...Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Nxd5 Qxe5 14.Qc2 (Or 14.f4 and 15.e4) ) 11.e3 h6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.f4 Ne7 Is White better here? It seems that Black is very solid, and it is not very clear how White can attack on the kingside.

Another line is 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.e4 Nxe4 (12...dxe4 13.Nxe4 Nxe4 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Bxe4 Bd5 also looks okay) 13.Bxe7 Nxc3 14.Bxd8 Nxd1 15.Be7 Nxb2 16.Bxf8 Kxf8

Black has two pawns for the piece, a passed pawn and a terror knight on d3. Actually, I like Black here.

Therefore, what should be played?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #44 - 11/26/07 at 21:03:05
Post Tools
Greetings,

Markovich wrote on 11/26/07 at 15:38:25:
Personally I don't have much confidence in 6.Bf4 as a winning try.  White's moves are easy to find, but so are Black's.  I doubt that the c-file belongs to White, particularly. 

If anyone wants to try a nonstandard way of winning against the Tarrasch, I think the best one is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5!? d4 7.Na4.  Black's best is 7...Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qxc5 10.e3.  This leaves White with the two bishops, and a good technician could use that to torture Black for a long time.

Grünfeld-Tarrasch. Teplitz-Schönau 1922 continued 10. ..., de; 11. Bxe3, Qb4+; 12. Qd2, Qxd2+; 13. Nxd2, Nge7; 14. Bb5, 0-0; 15. 0-0, Bf5 (=)

I see that, like myself, you prefer the two bishops.

Such positions as these would have appealed to Capablanca and Rubinstein!

Kindest regards,

James
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #43 - 11/26/07 at 15:38:25
Post Tools
Personally I don't have much confidence in 6.Bf4 as a winning try.  White's moves are easy to find, but so are Black's.  I doubt that the c-file belongs to White, particularly. 

If anyone wants to try a nonstandard way of winning against the Tarrasch, I think the best one is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5!? d4 7.Na4.  Black's best is 7...Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qxc5 10.e3.  This leaves White with the two bishops, and a good technician could use that to torture Black for a long time.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #42 - 11/26/07 at 14:11:04
Post Tools
Conventional wisdom has it that if White doesn't fianchetto he's giving Black almost instant equality.

Conventional wisdom died around the time of the first incarnation of Fritz.

I still prefer to fianchetto as White, but before I knew the conventional wisdom I managed to get many interesting games playing in standard QGD style with either Bf4 (which as Dragan Glas pointed out probably is a direct transposition to the Bf4 QGD) or Bg5.

I used to play the Black side of the game and have students who still do. At the scholastic level, White rarely plays g3 and often gets busted.  I would recommend not playing g3 only if you have something specific prepared.  Otherwise, the tried and tested main lines are probably objectively still the best.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #41 - 11/25/07 at 23:25:18
Post Tools
Greetings,

MNb wrote on 11/25/07 at 21:00:20:
I never have had the opportunity to play it, but 6.Bf4 looks attractive to me. White's plan is easy: development (e3, Be2), play the queen's knight to d4 and evt. invade along the c-file.

Anyone who's plays Bf4 in the QGD per se should be perfectly at home with this - there are bound to be transpositional occurrences.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10514
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #40 - 11/25/07 at 22:53:27
Post Tools
Or play like this:



Speelman,J (2640) - Illescas Cordoba,M (2525) [D32]
World Cup Barcelona, 1989

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bf4 Nf6 7.e3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bb4 9.Be2 Ne4 10.Rc1 0-0 11.0-0 Bxc3 12.bxc3 Qa5 13.c4 dxc4 14.Bxc4 Nxd4 15.Qxd4 Nd2 16.Bd6 Bh3 17.Rfd1 Nxc4 18.Bxf8 Rxf8 19.Rxc4 Qg5 20.Qe4 1-0
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4646
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #39 - 11/25/07 at 21:14:41
Post Tools
I remember how the American grandmaster Lombardy (who apparently is going to play in the invitational group of a tournament in "Dutchieland" in a couple of weeks, by the way) came a cropper in the Bf4 line long ago.  I think that Lombardy, annotating the game soon afterward, gave his own 12th move a double question mark, and wrote that taking the rooks and meeting ...Bxc3+ with Ke2 would have been good for White.    


[Event "Tallinn"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1975.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Lombardy, William James"]
[Black "Hernandez, Roman"]
[Result "0-1"]
[NIC "TD 3.6"]
[ECO "D32"]
[PlyCount "34"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bf4 Nf6 7. e3 cxd4 8. Nxd4
Bb4 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4 Qa5 11. Qxc6  Bd7 12. Qc7 Qxc7 13. Bxc7 d4 14. a3 dxc3 15.
axb4 cxb2 16. Rd1 Ba4 17. Rb1 Rc8 0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10514
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Tarrasch Defence
Reply #38 - 11/25/07 at 21:00:20
Post Tools
I never have had the opportunity to play it, but 6.Bf4 looks attractive to me. White's plan is easy: development (e3, Be2), play the queen's knight to d4 and evt. invade along the c-file.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo