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Normal Topic What if White refuses to play Nc3? (Read 3083 times)
exigentsky
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Re: What if White refuses to play Nc3?
Reply #5 - 10/01/07 at 07:00:49
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I actually played a few more games with 2. Nc3 and d6. It's really not so bad. I think Black is actually doing better. 

BTW: I think Fischer must have been cheating by using an engine. Almost all his moves, apart from the nice Rxc3 exchange sacrifice match HIARCS 11.2's first candidate. It's seriously like 95% and the other 5% includes better moves. Coincidence or cheating, you decide. Topalov wasn't just right about Kramnik, apparently the problem is far more widespread.




























Yes, it's a joke (apart from the 95%+ matching moves).
  
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woofwoof
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Re: What if White refuses to play Nc3?
Reply #4 - 09/30/07 at 15:11:03
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kylemeister wrote on 09/30/07 at 07:26:08:
exigentsky wrote on 09/30/07 at 04:02:29:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3! Now, Black can't just transpose to let's say a Najdorf because a6 is met with c4. In addition, White's f3 is so common in many Sicilians, like the Dragon, Classical, and Najdorf that it can hardly be considered a loss of tempo. How to proceed here?


You might start with that Lombardy-Fischer game from like 50 years ago.  Although 5...e5 has perhaps generally been considered the most critical.
I seem to recall Patrick Wolff (GM, 2-time US champion) playing this a few times as White.   


I do feel that this is both the sharpest and probably the best way to deal with these maroczy bind attempts by white. I might be a little biased here cos I really do believe in these Boleslavsky/ Opocensky type of structures.

The alternative wld be to play 5...Nc6 6.c4 e6 & finding an opportune time to break with d5. According to Fischer, white is not able to prevent this move despite all his efforts to do so.

Here is the Lombardy-Fischer Game :

[Event "New York ch-US "]
[Site "New York ch-US "]
[Date "1960.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Lombardy, William"]
[Black "Fischer, Robert J"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B54"]
[PlyCount "86"]
[EventDate "1960.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 e6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3
O-O 9. Nc2 d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 Nxd5 12. Qxd5 Qc7 13. Qb5 Bd7 14. Rc1 Nb4
15. Nxb4 Qxc1+ 16. Bxc1 Bxb5 17. Nd5 Bh4+ 18. g3 Bxf1 19. Kxf1 Bd8 20. Bd2 Rc8
21. Bc3 f5 22. e5 Rc5 23. Nb4 Ba5 24. a3 Bxb4 25. axb4 Rd5 26. Ke2 Kf7 27. h4
Ke6 28. Ke3 Rc8 29. Rg1 Rc4 30. Re1 Rxc3+ 31. bxc3 Rxe5+ 32. Kd2 Rxe1 33. Kxe1
Kd5 34. Kd2 Kc4 35. h5 b6 36. Kc2 g5 37. h6 f4 38. g4 a5 39. bxa5 bxa5 40. Kb2
a4 41. Ka3 Kxc3 42. Kxa4 Kd4 43. Kb4 Ke3 0-1

  
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Stigma
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Re: What if White refuses to play Nc3?
Reply #3 - 09/30/07 at 10:04:40
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Two points:

1) You might consider the "Suba move order" designed to avoid both 5.f3 and 4.Qxd4, namely 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6!? White's alternatives to 4.Nc3 cxd4 (primarily 4.dxc5) are rare and not that dangerous; in my (TWIC-derived) database White chooses 4.Nc3 95% of the time. Rowson discussed this order in his ChessPublishing Anti-Sicilians update of March 2005.

2) Allowing 5.f3, Black scores quite well with 5...Nc6 6.c4 Qb6 7.Nc2 e6 8.Nc3 Be7 or 8...a6. Of course, to play this Black must be ready for 6.Nc3 when white plays an English/Yugoslav Attack, and both Najdorf lines with Nbd7 and the Dragadorf have been avoided.
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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kylemeister
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Re: What if White refuses to play Nc3?
Reply #2 - 09/30/07 at 07:26:08
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exigentsky wrote on 09/30/07 at 04:02:29:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3! Now, Black can't just transpose to let's say a Najdorf because a6 is met with c4. In addition, White's f3 is so common in many Sicilians, like the Dragon, Classical, and Najdorf that it can hardly be considered a loss of tempo. How to proceed here?


You might start with that Lombardy-Fischer game from like 50 years ago.  Although 5...e5 has perhaps generally been considered the most critical.
I seem to recall Patrick Wolff (GM, 2-time US champion) playing this a few times as White.  
« Last Edit: 09/30/07 at 08:30:57 by kylemeister »  
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Bibs
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Re: What if White refuses to play Nc3?
Reply #1 - 09/30/07 at 06:06:54
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Exclam not necessary. Its simply another move.

See Dangerous Weapons: Sicilian (Emms, Palliser).

  
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exigentsky
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What if White refuses to play Nc3?
09/30/07 at 04:02:29
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3! Now, Black can't just transpose to let's say a Najdorf because a6 is met with c4. In addition, White's f3 is so common in many Sicilians, like the Dragon, Classical, and Najdorf that it can hardly be considered a loss of tempo. How to proceed here?
  
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