Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID (Read 19465 times)
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2327
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #13 - 10/08/07 at 21:31:36
Post Tools
I suspect we are all products of the Fischer & Kasparov generation of KID players.  While the opening may have experienced a bit of a lull (and now, perhaps, a bit of a renaissance), more than just KID players have been exposed to the KID just by playing through the games of world champions.  Playing through these games, a number of amateur players became hooked and followed their heroes into the KID, which means it's an opening for which the tournament player needs to be prepared.  In short, it's on the 1.d4 player's radar.

More to the point, our exposure of good GM games in the KID have also resulted in--I would argue--a better than average understanding of the basic goals for Black and White.  Not better understanding of the theory (which is always changing) or the evaluation of particular lines, but in my limited experience playing against the KID (I've been using the Bayonet), I have a good feel for what White needs to do and what Black intends.  I can't reel off endless variations by memory, but I do know that I want to plunk a knight down on e6 and exchange off Black's light-squared bishop, which can be dangerous in kingside assaults.  I know that Black will want to move his/her f6-knight to make way for ...f7-f5, and that there are certain principles and conditions that dictate whether or not I want to take this pawn, etc.

I don't at all mean to suggest that the KID is a bad opening or that I always win against it, but rather that the rules or ideas governing the middlegame may be a little more intrinsically familiar than in other openings.  The fallout of fashion, perhaps...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #12 - 10/08/07 at 14:36:08
Post Tools
Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 07:29:05:
LeeRoth wrote on 10/07/07 at 16:44:12:
Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.

Ftacnik, Gelfand and of course Karpov and Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against it. Iirc Karpov has a huge score against the KID and definately a plus score against Kasparov.
I dont know how much they brag though Grin


Well, I recall Karpov writing in one of his books that very few people played the KID against him.  He didn't say "dared to play," but I think that's what he meant.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #11 - 10/08/07 at 07:29:05
Post Tools
LeeRoth wrote on 10/07/07 at 16:44:12:
Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.

Ftacnik, Gelfand and of course Karpov and Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against it. Iirc Karpov has a huge score against the KID and definately a plus score against Kasparov.
I dont know how much they brag though Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thibdb13
God Member
*****
Offline


Tal was the best

Posts: 974
Location: Mechelen
Joined: 01/25/07
Gender: Male
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #10 - 10/08/07 at 07:13:58
Post Tools
The biggest problem with the KID for white is to understand the position from black's point of view. (but the same occurs for other openings).
Black can go for a Q-side attack, a K-side attack or try to demolish white center. When playing d4, I found that the Sämisch was flexible enough to counter black's plans. Now to be honnest, my first games with the Sämisch were no success. I needed to read Ward's book (the controversial Sämisch) 4 or 5 times and to play many blitz and rapid games to understand the positions arising from this opening. But once you get it, it is no problem to survive (at least the opening phase) even against stronger players.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #9 - 10/07/07 at 23:37:05
Post Tools
I really don't understand this fuss about Black being able to attack White's king.

White just needs to choose a variation that is NOT the Classical 7. 0-0.

In fact the majority of variations against the KID don't easily allow a kingside attack.
Take your pick:  3. g3, 5. f3, 5. Bd3, 5. Nge2, 5. h3, 5. Bg5, Petrosian 7. d5, Gligoric 7. Be3

In tournament games I have used the Gligoric 7. Be3, Samisch and Makogonov and in no single line am i in any danger of being mated. In fact what i do have is a nice spatial plus. I would imagine the Fianchetto to be an excellent weapon as well. Isn't White playing the same opening as Black but with more space?!
« Last Edit: 10/08/07 at 01:23:54 by lnn2 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10621
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #8 - 10/07/07 at 20:42:28
Post Tools
I don't mind meeting the KID, probably because I only have begun playing 1.d4 recently. Ask me again in 2017 or so.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #7 - 10/07/07 at 19:35:46
Post Tools
Lee's answer is exactly how I felt about the King's Indian before I spent about six months studying how to play it.

I studied both sides, played the black side in many blitz games and studied the classics.  It took me a tremendous amount of work, but I now feel more confident against the King's Indian than just about any other opening as White. 

I never feel comfortable playing chess.  I feel excited, nervous, angry at myself, or in a totally winning position in which I have absolutely no chance of drawing, bored.  I hate feeling bored and constantly ask myself why my opponent hasn't resigned yet.  For me, that's the key question that keeps me looking for the best technique in winning positions.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #6 - 10/07/07 at 16:44:12
Post Tools
Show me someone who brags about beating the King's Indian, and I'll show you someone who hasn't played too many of them against strong opposition.  Forget the GM games, for a minute.  Yeah, ok, the theory is important and you need to follow it, but the fact that Radjabov wins against Van Wely, doesn't mean too much to you and me in our Thursday night games.

As a long-time 1.d4 player, I'll confess that the KID is the defense I most hate to face.  The reason has nothing to do with "objective" factors.  Yes, I know I have more space and I have a good idea of what the plans are, thank you.  But the simple fact of the matter is that, in practical play, Black gets all sorts of activity and he's usually gunning for your king.  I can't tell you how many times I've thought that I would glady trade my positional advantage or extra pawn or whatever, if Black would just leave my king alone.  Win against the King's Indian, sure I do.  But comfortable against it, well, comfotable, never really comfortable.

Just my two cents,
LeeRoth

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1756
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #5 - 10/07/07 at 12:44:56
Post Tools
I think in the minds of many of us 1. d4 players, the KID is "antipositional" and "incorrect". It is not yet refuted, but when Fritz 33 is released, it finally will be.  Grin

Afterall, Black encases his dark squared bishop and then leaps for joy later in the game if he miracously manages to free it. Well, why did you put the #*!&% bishop there in the first place....duh?  Then Black throws caution to the wind and stakes everthing on a King side attack . Surely, such reckless, infantile play cannot be correct?  Shocked

On top of all of that, Black is not even subtle about his intentions. He wants to destroy the White king. There is no subtlely here at all. He is coming dirrectly for my king? Hmm...this is deeply personal!! Such brazen unfriendly, caveman like behaviour must be punished. Black cannot be allowed to get away with this.

This sums up the feeling of many 1.d4 players towards the KID. Yes, we all know that the KID is not really anitpositional. And yeah, we know that dynamic factors can trumpet over static factors in chess. But surely still.......
« Last Edit: 10/07/07 at 13:50:43 by Antillian »  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #4 - 10/07/07 at 11:50:45
Post Tools
If i didn't know any theory, i wonder why Black's opening is considered so interesting to play after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3 Bg7 4. Bg2 0-0 5. Nf3 d6 , I mean, doesn't White simply have the same setup but with more space?!   Huh

Anyway I think the attitude of White players is no more zealous than advocates of the Black cause (have you ever read Gallagher's books?!)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #3 - 10/07/07 at 09:47:38
Post Tools
I'm going to respond by being defensive for just a few moments.

As an ardent player of 1.d4, I relish the opportunity to score another win against the KID.  I also hate losing to it, even in blitz.  I don't think it's a bit defensive to brag about positive scores against a given opening, and I have quite a nice record against the KID.

Having said that, I believe that one major reason I am successful against the KID is that I respect the many new ideas thrown at me.  I don't pretend the KID is refuted, but I really like my chances, even against IMs and GMs when they assay the KID against me.  My last outing in classical time controls was a loss to an FM, but before that I had two draws against IMs and positive scores against players rated over 2500 USCF.

Please, bring on the KID!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #2 - 10/07/07 at 07:37:07
Post Tools
Two in a row. Bit 'Bloomesque', no Exi?

Dont worry what other people blather about. Only about the moves they play. Internet brings out lots of mouth but significantly less trousers.

Advice:
Forget the stats. Sums do not a player make.
Get any decent repertoire/starting out type book. They will sort you out to a surprisingly high level.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
exigentsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Q

Posts: 402
Joined: 05/14/07
Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #1 - 10/07/07 at 07:18:16
Post Tools
I think the KID is making a sort of comeback too (not that it ever really lost its popularity). Just look at Monte-Carlo http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4164. Many KID games and White lost virtually every game where the main line wasn't played. Even if all games are taken into account, Black won something like 65%. Even the 2600+ players were struggling with it and lost some games. The Slav and Nimzo/QID did MUCH worse. The Slav/Semi-Slav particularly did very badly with something like 1 win for every 10 games lost. Of course, this is just one tournament, but it is encouraging for KID players. I still think that d4 players secretly hate the KID because it's perhaps the most aggressive response and Black is going for White's precious king.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
exigentsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Q

Posts: 402
Joined: 05/14/07
Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
10/07/07 at 06:53:46
Post Tools
I'm fooling around with many defenses to d4 and the KID is one of them. However, when I talk to White players about it or even mention it, they get very defensive and start slandering it. "I crush it!!!!!!" etc. Are they trying to portray a false sense of confidence to dissuade others from playing it? It often seems so artificial. It's even funnier when I win as Black. Is this a common reaction or am I just getting a bad bunch?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo