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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID (Read 19473 times)
Antillian
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #28 - 10/28/07 at 14:36:52
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winawer77 wrote on 10/26/07 at 17:00:36:
I've also looked at the 6h3 line advocated in Grivas' 'Beating the Fianchetto Defences'. This is an excellent practical choice as often it is White that takes over the initiative on the kingside, leaving his king in the centre long enough to deny Black a target. He often then whisks it to safety with a quick 0-0-0.
The downside to this is that it can be quite difficult to handle, but I think that careful study of this line would bring great rewards. In my view it is the only line that practically encourages Black to play ...f5.

Grivas also recommends a modified version of the exchange variation, where he claims h3 is more useful than the traditional Be2, as it prevents Black playing ...Bg4-Bxf3 and sinking a knight into d4. I think this line looks an excellent way to play safely against the KID, especially for an endgame buff like me.

Any tried it?


Grivas advocates the Makagonov System and I have dabled with it. I got a chance to try it out in a correspondance game recently but I only managed a draw. I am perservering with it, because it fits in with my approach to opening study, which is to become a  specialist in systems with latent potency ignored by the chess elite. Systems such as this reward deep study and become deadly weapons since you develop a level of understanding and familiarity.

I am bit more skeptical of the exchange variation as a regular weapon, but think the h3 version  is a useful surprise weapon against KID players programmed by books like Gallager to think that dxe5 hands the advantage to Black.
  

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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #27 - 10/27/07 at 23:09:49
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Willempie wrote on 10/08/07 at 07:29:05:
Kasparov seem(ed) to score well against [the KID]


He also scored very well playing it as black Tongue
  

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winawer77
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #26 - 10/26/07 at 17:00:36
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I've also looked at the 6h3 line advocated in Grivas' 'Beating the Fianchetto Defences'. This is an excellent practical choice as often it is White that takes over the initiative on the kingside, leaving his king in the centre long enough to deny Black a target. He often then whisks it to safety with a quick 0-0-0.
The downside to this is that it can be quite difficult to handle, but I think that careful study of this line would bring great rewards. In my view it is the only line that practically encourages Black to play ...f5.

Grivas also recommends a modified version of the exchange variation, where he claims h3 is more useful than the traditional Be2, as it prevents Black playing ...Bg4-Bxf3 and sinking a knight into d4. I think this line looks an excellent way to play safely against the KID, especially for an endgame buff like me.

Any tried it?
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #25 - 10/26/07 at 15:27:40
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Quote:
I think the 4-pawns-attack could be quite effective, because what can black do other than going into a benoni?


There's also the major line with 6...Na6 (intending ...e5).
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #24 - 10/26/07 at 15:10:16
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why don't you play the 4-pawns attack?

I looked into the fianchetto, and although it is considered solid and psychologically good against the kid,
it does not really have great results ...
also looked into the bayonet and other classical lines with Ne1 Be3, Ne1 Bd2, Nd2, Sämisch f3, etc. ... very unclear positions, with the 4-pawns-attack you get a clear benoni on the board ...
and looking how the world's best players mishandled really good benoni positions,
I think the 4-pawns-attack could be quite effective, because what can black do other than going into a benoni?
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #23 - 10/25/07 at 18:45:49
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I used to play fianchetto lines against the KID and still do from time to time. Above all, the main problem is that Black can now go for the immediate d5 or play c6 and d5. This gives him a good game but of course White still has a very small edge.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #22 - 10/10/07 at 14:42:14
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winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


Colin McNab wrote one that is now a bit dated, but probably still useful.  IIRC, however, he only covers KID and doesn't look at Gruenfeld or Benoni.  If you're going to rely on an early g3, you'll need to brush up on those lines too.

LeeRoth
  
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winawer77
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #21 - 10/10/07 at 14:29:11
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I find in chess it is as much your state of mind that determines success, as it is the moves you play. For example, I am, by nature, a solid positional player. I do not seek complications and prefer to outplay my opponent from a solid foundation. I am happy to play endgames and queenless middlegame that many other players would consider 'boring'.

In my opinion, it takes more skill to nurse a small positional advantage through the middlegame and then convert it in the endgame, keeping my opponent's activity under control at all times than it does to shove a g-pawn down the board, play ...Bxh3 and mate on h2.

However, I play the Classical KID as White because its the only thing that I know in any detail. I also realise that my normal solid style of play is of no use here, so I change my mindset. To play these positions with either colour requires a fearless approach. So I dont wimp out of the big decisions, hunt that c8 bishop down as it my life depended on it and try and stay up on the clock (get seriously behind on time in a Classical KID and you're as good as dead). Do something like this, and you have a chance.

In the Classical KID the riskiest thing you can do is play timidly.

  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #20 - 10/10/07 at 14:11:29
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winawer77 wrote on 10/10/07 at 13:37:09:
I have to agree with LeeRoth, its as much as mentality and fighting spirit of KID players that makes then so dangerous.

Give me a QGD or Slav player any day, they are quiet souls that do not like structural weaknesses and are often partial to a draw. I'm happy to grind these guys down all day. A KID player is a very different animal, he plays without fear, and seeks to improve the dynamism within his position with every move. He does not shy away from material sacrifices and much of his play (esp in the Classical lines) is very easy(straightforward) to play....f5-f4, g5-g4 etc, you can see why its popular. In the Classical lines if White's plan succeeds he demolishes Black's queenside, if Black's succeeds he mates the king!

I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.


A very good psychological (or ethnological?) analysis. It is really more in the people than in the opening itself that you should seak the danger. Lips Sealed
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #19 - 10/10/07 at 13:37:09
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I have to agree with LeeRoth, its as much as mentality and fighting spirit of KID players that makes then so dangerous.

Give me a QGD or Slav player any day, they are quiet souls that do not like structural weaknesses and are often partial to a draw. I'm happy to grind these guys down all day. A KID player is a very different animal, he plays without fear, and seeks to improve the dynamism within his position with every move. He does not shy away from material sacrifices and much of his play (esp in the Classical lines) is very easy(straightforward) to play....f5-f4, g5-g4 etc, you can see why its popular. In the Classical lines if White's plan succeeds he demolishes Black's queenside, if Black's succeeds he mates the king!

I would think that the Fianchetto lines would be the most unpleasant (psychologically at least) for Black to meet as White has no targets for Black to attack and has a safe king. Yet these are the only lines I have never played. I have always played the Classical lines with White, although it has taken many years (and defeats) to turn this into a positive score.

Wouldn't mind taking up the Fianchetto lines, anyone recommend a good book? The only one I'm aware of is Ljangava's Gambit book.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #18 - 10/09/07 at 15:58:39
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lnn2 wrote on 10/09/07 at 00:57:11:
LeeRoth wrote on 10/08/07 at 22:37:52:
The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win.  


Please tell me why White needs to feel obliged to mix it up after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3. I'm no expert on fianchetto theory, but looking at the positions every month from Mikhalevski's updates, the fianchetto just looks like a free grind for White to me. And Black is often the side who feels obliged to mix things up (not White), simply because of his inherent lack of space.


The main problem I have with the fianchetto is that Black can play 3..c5.  White's two principled tries are 4.Nf3, which is no guarantee of a quiet life, or 4.d5, with a Benoni.  See the famous game Korchnoi-Kasparov for the kind of mayhem that can result from that. 

But even if Black stays in King's Indian territory he has -- as you note -- ways of mixing it up against the fianchetto.  As Gallagher writes of the fianchetto in Play the King's Indian:  "In my early King's Indian days I suffered horribly in this line . . . These problems continued for many years until I discovered a way to create chaos on the board. . .[T]hese players want to control the game and they begin to feel uncomfortable when they feel this control slipping away.  Make them dance to your tune and they won't like it -- even if the position is objectively in their favor."

It's just this sort of attitude, which many of the good KID players seem to have, that makes this opening so dangerous.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #17 - 10/09/07 at 03:24:24
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Eric,

I agree with your post, but it's ironic that a tidy player such as Fischer also played the Black side of the KID.  Tigran Petrosian made the KID look almost foolish, but Kasparov brought it back fully to respectability.  Unfortunately for KID lovers, he also sounded its (possibly premature) deathknell.

I generally don't like chaos in my chess games, but I can keep up with most players tactically.  I don't think I have to outplay my opponent tactically in the KID, I just have to keep pace and pressure Black until the endgame.  And yeah, I rely heavily on the Classical KID as White.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #16 - 10/09/07 at 02:36:24
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I disagree that Black always (or even usually) succeeds in getting to attack the White King.  However, it is pretty true that Black can pretty much always succeed in making a total mess of the position.  I tihnk that's why Whites usually feel uncomfortable.

As White, once you become just as comfortable as a KID player in tactical, messy positions, you stop fearing the KID and even relish playing against it.  At least, that's been my experience.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #15 - 10/09/07 at 00:57:11
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LeeRoth wrote on 10/08/07 at 22:37:52:
The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win. 


Please tell me why White needs to feel obliged to mix it up after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. g3. I'm no expert on fianchetto theory, but looking at the positions every month from Mikhalevski's updates, the fianchetto just looks like a free grind for White to me. And Black is often the side who feels obliged to mix things up (not White), simply because of his inherent lack of space.
  
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Re: Antipathy of 1. d4 Players Towards KID
Reply #14 - 10/08/07 at 22:37:52
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My main point, perhaps not expressed very well, is that the King's Indian is an active and counterattacking defense.  At the super GM level, players like Karpov and Kramnik have the skill and the temprament to squelch Black's activity.  But that is not particularly relevant lower down.  At club level, OTB, the opening is dangerous -- often just as much for White as it is for Black. 

The King's Indian is not an opening where White is going to grab a positional edge and be able to grind Black down.  Unless White plays something insipid, he's going to have to mix it up in order to try and win.  And he should.  Objectively, he probably has the better chances.  But Black will get his customary play and his usual fistful of tactical tricks.  In the classical lines, Black gets the added bonus of going for the White King, but even in other lines, Black usually finds a way to become active or switch to an equally messy Benoni.





  
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